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Thread: Hamas attacks southern Israel

  1. #2561

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/...rch%202024.pdf

    Most Palestinians support Hamas over the PA, the nominal state government of “Palestine,” by orders of magnitude. 59% in prefer that Hamas remain in control of Gaza indefinitely, only 13% want the PA to return. 64% believe Hamas will defeat Israel militarily, and 73% oppose organizing a coalition of Arab peacekeeping forces under the PA to control Gaza after the war.

    71% support Hamas’ decision to launch the 10/7 attacks, 81% of those who have seen footage of the atrocities Hamas proudly recorded that day do not consider them problematic, and 72% are satisfied with Hamas’ performance since then.

    If an election were held, 63% of Palestinians say they would back militant jihadist candidates, including the political leader of Hamas. Only 8% would vote for Abbas. 71% want Abbas to resign from office altogether.

    Palestinians support intifada over negotiated peace and political resistance by a 2 to 1 margin. 63% oppose peace negotiations with the goal of a two state solution. 52% oppose a two state solution altogether, and 61% believe it is not even a realistic proposal.

    The plain fact of the matter is most Palestinians support Hamas, support intifada and hate the PA. Only in the minds of delusional westerners is a magic two state solution with equal rights for everyone headed by the PA a relevant concept.

    I have mentioned before how silly it is for western liberals and leftists to parade around with the flag of the despised PA demanding solutions that have already been rejected by the people they claim to advocate for. But it is even more ridiculous to see the mental gymnastics on display throughout, attempting to portray Hamas as some rogue fringe anomaly that no one actually supports and has no agency in the conflict. Palestinians support Hamas and the 10/7 attacks. Most western leftist protesters wreaking havoc in the streets support Hamas and the 10/7 attacks. And because of that support, Palestinians hold out hope for final military victory over the hated Jew, sure to be vanquished by the heroic holy warriors of Hamas.

    If people clutching pearls over anything the IDF is responsible for really want to end the war and stop the suffering, they would get tf out of the way and stop trying to prevent the IDF from finishing the job. Until then, Palestinians will continue to support intifada and oppose political negotiations, because they feel supported at home and abroad, and therefore they will continue to serve as meat shields for their jihadist heroes in a conflict that has no end in sight.
    Basically, we should ignore consistent data on Gazan majority preferring Palestinian Authority administration over Hamas in favour of "data" collected under wartime conditions. This is what we call lying through statistics.

    New Poll Shows Gazans Pragmatic Now, But Not Long-Term:



    Also notable is that Gazans continue to express disapproval of Hamas’ policies towards Israel. About half (53%) agree at least somewhat that “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders,” a percentage that has held steady over the last three years. 59% of Gazans also agree that Hamas should give up its armed units in favor of PA officers in Gaza. Likewise, nearly two-thirds of Gazans would agree at least somewhat with the need for Hamas to preserve the cease-fire in both Gaza and the West Bank.
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  2. #2562
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Reread the beginning of this discussion. We all condemned the terrorist acts of October 7. Do we have to head each post denouncing the current barbarity that is the invasion of Gaza with a condemnation of the murders of civilians on October 7?
    Reread my answer to PoVG who made the exact same observation a few posts back.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    They have been a political party and government fully accepted (to say the least) by Israel until very recently. They are not a regime, they are not the elected government of the Palestinian people unless you go back eighteen years ago. They are not a regime, they do not represent a state, the Hamas militias are not the army of Palestine.
    You're confusing legitimacy with power.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  3. #2563

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PoVG
    Basically, we should ignore consistent data on Gazan majority preferring Palestinian Authority administration over Hamas in favour of "data" collected under wartime conditions. This is what we call lying through statistics.
    In early 2021, half of Palestinians wanted to dissolve the PA altogether, 58% opposed a two state solution, 61% said it was not feasible, 60% supported a return to intifada. If an election were held in 2021, 59% said they would vote for Hamas’ Ismael Haniyeh, 27% for the PA’s Abbas. This is similar to the 2023 and 2024 data in my last post. It’s silly to call this relative consistency a wartime anomaly based on an article and poll that don’t contradict it in the first place. Lying through statistics might be a generous way to put it.

    In 2021, Fatah Tanzim’s Barghouti was an electoral favorite over Haniyeh by about 10 points, and was equally favored to replace Abbas in a hypothetical matchup. In 2024, support for Barghouti has grown to a 20 point lead over Haniyeh, and 40 points over Abbas. The most we can glean from the screenshot you posted is a sense that many Palestinians consistently prefer the leader of the first and second intifadas over the current one.

    The Washington Institute article you posted from 2022 reflects rather than rebuts the trend I cited.



    When asked about the top Palestinian national priority in the next five years, the majority (55%) still rate reclaiming “all of historic Palestine, from the river to the sea” over other options, such as prioritizing a two-state solution. Only about a third (37%) of Gazans say they would accept the “principle of two states for two peoples,” even if it was the last step towards ending the occupation.

    A similar percentage of Gazans (58%) likewise continue to assert that the conflict with Israel should not end even if a two-state is achieved and should continue until all of historic Palestine is liberated. An even higher majority (73%) agree at least somewhat with the assertion that any compromise with Israel should be temporary until the restoration of historic Palestine, a number that has remained almost the same over the past three years.

    Looking further ahead, Gazans' attitudes toward the conflict remain maximalist. 46% of Gazans believe that the “Palestinians will control almost all of Palestine, because God is on their side,” a number that has not changed a great deal in the last three years.
    Because of the attacks on 10/7 and the simultaneous involvement of Iran, Hezbollah and the Houthis, the IDF no longer has escalation dominance and cannot afford to rely on deterrence to maintain a ceasefire. That means a permanent ceasefire is not possible unless the IDF can convince Hamas they are defeated. The latter are unlikely to concede defeat while enjoying the support of the majority of Palestinians and powerful interests in the west and throughout the Muslim world. Iran is the winner here by far, and Israel has a long, grinding road ahead to any return to normal.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; May 17, 2024 at 10:50 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  4. #2564

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    In early 2021, half of Palestinians wanted to dissolve the PA altogether, 58% opposed a two state solution, 61% said it was not feasible, 60% supported a return to intifada. If an election were held in 2021, 59% said they would vote for Hamas’ Ismael Haniyeh, 27% for the PA’s Abbas. This is similar to the 2023 and 2024 data in my last post. It’s silly to call this relative consistency a wartime anomaly based on an article and poll that don’t contradict it in the first place. Lying through statistics might be a generous way to put it.

    In 2021, Fatah Tanzim’s Barghouti was an electoral favorite over Haniyeh by about 10 points, and was equally favored to replace Abbas in a hypothetical matchup. In 2024, support for Barghouti has grown to a 20 point lead over Haniyeh, and 40 points over Abbas. The most we can glean from the screenshot you posted is a sense that many Palestinians consistently prefer the leader of the first and second intifadas over the current one.
    I don't know what poll you're referring to in using those numbers. Given that both in 2020 and 2022 Gazans wanted PA to take over instead of being governed by Hamas by 62% and 59% respectively its highly unlikely your numbers carry any weight. You tried to show that Hamas enjoyed majority support in Gaza in order to make Gazan civilians culpable for Hamas' every action. Polling data conducted before the most recent flare in fighting directly contradicts what you tried to argue. The real lesson to learn is that support for Hamas is tied to Israeli brutality. It is no coincidence that opposition to Hamas decreases relatively, but never falling below 50%, in years of increased Israeli strikes on Gaza.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    The Washington Institute article you posted from 2022 reflects rather than rebuts the trend I cited.

    Because of the attacks on 10/7 and the simultaneous involvement of Iran, Hezbollah and the Houthis, the IDF no longer has escalation dominance and cannot afford to rely on deterrence to maintain a ceasefire. That means a permanent ceasefire is not possible unless the IDF can convince Hamas they are defeated. The latter are unlikely to concede defeat while enjoying the support of the majority of Palestinians and powerful interests in the west and throughout the Muslim world. Iran is the winner here by far, and Israel has a long, grinding road ahead to any return to normal.
    That's more of a wishful thinking than one based on reality. The right in USA has the tendency to blow up the role of Iran connected to any conflict.

    Initial US intelligence suggests Iran was surprised by the Hamas attack on Israel
    The United States has collected specific intelligence that suggests senior Iranian government officials were caught by surprise by Saturday’s bloody attack on Israel by Hamas, according to multiple sources familiar with the intelligence.
    The existence of the intelligence has cast doubt on the idea that Iran was directly involved in the planning, resourcing or approving of the operation, sources said.
    Netanyahu's support for Hamas and Israeli army's apparent complicity in letting the attack materialize played a much bigger role than anything we know Iran did.
    The Armenian Issue

  5. #2565

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    I don't know what poll you're referring to in using those numbers.
    I’m referring to the ones I cited, corroborated by the article you posted.
    Given that both in 2020 and 2022 Gazans wanted PA to take over instead of being governed by Hamas by 62% and 59% respectively its highly unlikely your numbers carry any weight.
    On the contrary, it’s highly unlikely the one screenshot you provided suggesting anything of the sort countervails the mountain of evidence I have cited. It is also from a different article apart from the one you posted, so I’ve no way of knowing how the methodology fits in with Palestinians’ support for Hamas. The most we can say about your screenshot is Palestinians likely prefer a militant leader more closely affiliated with Fatah, like Barghouti, over Hamas’ Haniyeh.
    You tried to show that Hamas enjoyed majority support in Gaza in order to make Gazan civilians culpable for Hamas' every action.
    Hamas does have majority support in Gaza, as cited. More importantly, even if Hamas disappeared tomorrow, your own source indicates Palestinians reject a two state solution or a permanent peace with Israel, so the argument that many Palestinians may prefer other jihadist leadership over Hamas is moot.
    Polling data conducted before the most recent flare in fighting directly contradicts what you tried to argue.
    No it doesn’t.
    The real lesson to learn is that support for Hamas is tied to Israeli brutality.
    Your own source suggests otherwise. Support for Hamas is tied to consistent Palestinian support for intifada and Hamas’ perceived success in that fight. “(58%) likewise continue to assert that the conflict with Israel should not end even if a two-state is achieved. An even higher majority (73%) agree at least somewhat with the assertion that any compromise with Israel should be temporary.”
    That's more of a wishful thinking than one based on reality. The right in USA has the tendency to blow up the role of Iran connected to any conflict.
    What I said was the 10/7 attacks and their consequences have been a major victory for Iran. The IRGC claimed 10/7 was orchestrated in retaliation for the assassination of Soleimani, so you’ll have to debate reality with them. We will likely never know the full story.
    The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) says the October 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was a retaliatory action for the assassination of Qasem Soleimani.

    According to the IRGC-affiliated Fars News Agency, in a press conference held on Wednesday, Ramezan Sharif, the spokesperson for the IRGC said "The Al-Aqsa Storm was one of the retaliations of the Axis of Resistance against the Zionists for the martyrdom of Qasem Soleimani," the man behind Iran's proxy activities across the region.

    https://www.iranintl.com/en/202312278189
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; May 18, 2024 at 07:33 AM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  6. #2566
    Jozam's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    Trump vows to deport anyone who protests against Israel's actions in Gaza: https://www.motherjones.com/politics...ollege-deport/

    Basically Trump has thrown away any chance that any of the protestors who are angry with Biden might give him a look.
    I don't think voting for Trump was ever on the table. The people upset by the genocide in Gaza are mostly former Democrat voters, they don't need to vote for Trump to get him elected, just withhold their vote from Biden, which seems to be the plan so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    I certainly don’t object to the notion these kids are misinformed/naive in a broader sense. Based on survey data, they get their information on the conflict primarily through social media. At the same time, I believe these protesters mean what they say and do when they openly celebrate and advocate for Hamas by name and for intifada more broadly, engaging in coordinated destructive tactics under the guise of moral activism. These are not generic calls for peace or for withdrawal from the Middle East, but in fact for sustained and organized opposition to my country and our allies. There’s also an abundance of evidence confirming outside funding and coordination by political agents, reported by law enforcement and the press.

    These people, be they students or professional agitators, want to be taken seriously. They want their violent threats and intimidation to have an obstructive impact on government and society in pursuit of anti-US and anti-Israel political aims. I am proposing to treat the pro-terrorist majority as they have identified themselves: as violent political “revolutionaries” who are hostile to the US and our allies, fighting “in solidarity” with terrorist groups and foreign adversaries who share their contempt for and struggle against us and our national interests from within.
    I'm glad you've taken a break from calling for the U.S. government's overthrow to remind us of the importance of prosecuting and deporting people for sedition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Yet the liberal establishment hates Americans so much, they would rather import reliable foreign voters and cheaper workers purchased with public funds than use their institutional dominance to score an easy bipartisan win and stop mass migration.

    The federal government’s threats against Texans for doing the job the feds refuse to do indicates we are fast approaching the situation described in the Declaration of Independence, wherein a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce us under absolute despotism, underscoring our duty to throw off such government and provide new guards for our future security.

  7. #2567

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    I'm glad you've taken a break from calling for the U.S. government's overthrow to remind us of the importance of prosecuting and deporting people for sedition.
    Comparing posts from 2 different threads is an interesting way to accuse me of hypocrisy. I never called for the overthrow of the US government. Per the quote you’ve referenced, I said by facilitating the mass importation of foreigners and punishing Americans for trying to secure the border, the current US government is creating a situation where it exists in direct opposition to the American people, which the Declaration of Independence cited as grounds for overthrowing a government.

    In this thread, I addressed the efforts of political elites who have immense direct influence over the US government to coordinate mass unrest, manipulating the electoral process in support of foreign terrorists and in opposition to US government policy. To the extent this situation does constitute grounds for overthrowing a government according to the Declaration of Independence, the latter suggests the political elites in question would hypothetically face a much harsher fate than the legal prosecution I have advocated for. After all, it was the principal author of the Declaration, Thomas Jefferson, who said “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.”
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; May 18, 2024 at 11:58 AM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  8. #2568
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Excerpt from an extensive interview with a well-known “antisemite”, Francesca Albanese, UN Special Rapporteur for the Palestinian Territories, author of the report titled Anatomy of a Genocide

    'They Don't See Palestinians as Human Beings':

    There are two pending pieces of legislation in the U.S. that relate to Israel. Under one, the Antisemitism Awareness Act, the federal government would police campus speech, using the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's narrow definition of antisemitism, which incorrectly equates criticism of Israel with antisemitism and conflates Judaism with Zionism. Another bill would give the Treasury Department broad new powers to revoke the nonprofit status of an organization, 90 days after making the unilateral determination that it supports terrorism. The bill appears targeted at U.S. groups critical of Israel. What do you make of these efforts in the U.S. to curb freedom of speech?

    I see two things. First of all, it's astonishing how far against its own values and basic democratic tenets the U.S. is going to go in order to favor Israel. And the second thing is that I hope that the American people understand how much of their rights and freedoms are being sacrificed in the name of defending a foreign country. It's incredible.

    How do you think the student protests on U.S. campuses are seen from the outside world?

    What is happening on U.S. campuses is reinvigorating the entire world, after South Africa. South Africa gave us hope. And this young generation—I call it the watermelon revolution—also gave us hope, because they asked for justice. They simply asked for justice. There might be an element of agitators among them, and there might be people with a different agenda other than being peaceful. But the majority of them have very clear asks: for divestment of their university, whose fees they pay, from Israel's enterprise; to have transparency; to have a proper education, including about Palestine, which is necessary; and to stop practicing anti-Palestinian racism. This is basically what they are asking, in all its forms. I think it's very moving and inspirational.

    Given how close you are to this issue, what do many other people—for example, in Europe or in the U.S., in Washington, in the media—not see about what is happening in Gaza?

    They don't see the Palestinians. They don't see the Palestinians as human beings. They don't. They see a mass—faceless, dreamless. They have no idea. They have no idea. This is the thing that troubles me, and it's very painful. There has been a huge deception. I did not realize that there was such a deep, entrenched racism in our societies that prevents us from looking at the Palestinians as ordinary human beings who go to school, who go shopping, who have had their homes—from the birthday cards, to the musical instruments, to wedding pictures, to clothes, everything they had—destroyed. The lives of hundreds of thousands of people have been destroyed. And 17,000 children orphaned. This number is just so shocking.

    I talk to people sometimes and they keep on saying, yeah but, what happened on the 7th of October? First of all, there is no but. And the 7th of October, I keep on saying, would not have happened had Israel's impunity been put under check before, because it's the hatred that we have seen unleashed against Israeli civilians, which was brutal. It was horrific, there is no question about that. And I will never condone it, of course. I will never justify it, of course. But at the same time, what has spread the hatred is the years of bombing, killing, destroying with impunity. It is the years of jailing the Palestinians in Gaza that has turned some of the people into these individuals full of rage and vengeance.

    Ultimately, we have to manage to bring the Palestinians and the Israelis to a place of compassion and mutual understanding. They need to see each other, see their humanity. But again, they are not equal. The Palestinians are the ones who have been subjugated, their rights and freedoms forfeited. The Israelis will have to come to terms with what they have done to the Palestinians. I don't think that they realize it yet. This is probably also the irrational fear in the Israeli war cabinet right now. Whenever the dust settles, then everyone will see.
    In fact,you don't even have to accept the classification of genocide to strongly condemn the way in which the Israelis are acting in Gaza, committing all the war crimes, violating all the rules of war law, international law, and the most basic humanity.
    What's more, the way in which freedom of opinion is limited in democratic countries, persecuting - that's the right word - all those who speak out against Israel, is absolutely reprehensible.
    Hypocritically repeated, what hides the accusation of antisemitism is that for every young person who takes to the streets, shouting against the existence of Israel, there are thousands of people who don't, many of whom are even friends of Israel, but who are outraged by what is happening in Gaza. It's a morally sound attitude, much more respectable than indifference to what Israel is doing in Gaza.
    --
    Spain bans vessels 'carrying weapons for Israel' from its ports
    --
    This weekend, the Israel's racist minister Chikli is in Spain, Neo-Nazi Curious and Champions of Israel: Diaspora Minister Chikli Heads to Spain's Far-right Convention Haaretz.
    Amichai Chikli, a minister in the Netanyahu government…has joined a series of ultra-right conventions across Europe, is now speaking at a confab in Spain run by a party once shunned by Israel for welcoming neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers into its ranks.
    Last edited by Ludicus; May 18, 2024 at 11:14 AM.
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  9. #2569

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    I’m referring to the ones I cited, corroborated by the article you posted.
    You need to be more specific but I found it. Its the same war-field polling, I see.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    On the contrary, it’s highly unlikely the one screenshot you provided suggesting anything of the sort countervails the mountain of evidence I have cited. It is also from a different article apart from the one you posted, so I’ve no way of knowing how the methodology fits in with Palestinians’ support for Hamas. The most we can say about your screenshot is Palestinians likely prefer a militant leader more closely affiliated with Fatah, like Barghouti, over Hamas’ Haniyeh.
    You haven't cited a mountain of evidence. You only provided a single poll that was conducted during the current Israeli invasion of Gaza meanwhile trying your best to dismiss a series of polls conducted by the Washington Institute. It wasn't just a screenshot either as you posted an other part of the link I posted the poll graphic with. Distorting what people responded to is not a good argument either. Respondents did not pick an other militant leader over that of Hamas. They picked an organization, Palestinian Authority, that constantly works with Israel. These are very amateurishly deceptive arguments you're relying on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Hamas does have majority support in Gaza, as cited. More importantly, even if Hamas disappeared tomorrow, your own source indicates Palestinians reject a two state solution or a permanent peace with Israel, so the argument that many Palestinians may prefer other jihadist leadership over Hamas is moot.
    Nope. You have no valid data to suggest that Hamas enjoys majority support in Gaza. As I pointed out before, you're trying to use dubious war-field polling to lie through statistics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    No it doesn’t.
    Not an argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Your own source suggests otherwise. Support for Hamas is tied to consistent Palestinian support for intifada and Hamas’ perceived success in that fight. “(58%) likewise continue to assert that the conflict with Israel should not end even if a two-state is achieved. An even higher majority (73%) agree at least somewhat with the assertion that any compromise with Israel should be temporary.”
    Nope. What you argue doesn't even make sense. The trend between those two graphics do not follow each other. The least you would need is correlation. You don't even have that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    What I said was the 10/7 attacks and their consequences have been a major victory for Iran. The IRGC claimed 10/7 was orchestrated in retaliation for the assassination of Soleimani, so you’ll have to debate reality with them. We will likely never know the full story.
    You and the Iranians are on the same path obviously.
    The Armenian Issue

  10. #2570

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    You need to be more specific but I found it. Its the same

    war-field polling, I see.
    If you have evidence any source isn’t credible, feel free to present it.
    You haven't cited a mountain of evidence. You only provided a single poll that was conducted during the current Israeli invasion of Gaza meanwhile trying your best to dismiss a series of polls conducted by the Washington Institute. It wasn't just a screenshot either as you posted an other part of the link I posted the poll graphic with. Distorting what people responded to is not a good argument either. Respondents did not pick an other militant leader over that of Hamas.
    That’s not true and I didn’t dismiss your source. I quoted it.
    They picked an organization, Palestinian Authority, that constantly works with Israel. These are very amateurishly deceptive arguments you're relying on.
    Palestinians consistently support Barghouti as the preferred leader of the PA and the intifada, and Hamas lobbies for his release from Israeli prison. The dichotomy between the “organizations” you are alleging based on a screenshot is not an indication most Palestinians preferred the PA or peace to Hamas or intifada until 10/7. Some 80% of Palestinians consistently reject the authority of the PA to disarm any other group, so your argument is inaccurate to begin with. Under Abbas’ leadership, the PA has been unpopular relative to Hamas since well before the 10/7 attacks, as cited.
    Nope. You have no valid data to suggest that Hamas enjoys majority support in Gaza. As I pointed out before, you're trying to use dubious war-field polling to lie through statistics.
    This isn’t true either. Moreover, it’s silly to argue in the first place that Hamas’ popularity with Palestinians because of the October 7 attacks means people don’t actually support Hamas.
    Nope. What you argue doesn't even make sense. The trend between those two graphics do not follow each other. The least you would need is correlation. You don't even have that.
    If you’re going to argue against a source you referenced, I’ll leave you to it.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; May 18, 2024 at 07:56 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  11. #2571

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    If you have evidence any source isn’t credible, feel free to present it.
    That’s not true and I didn’t dismiss your source. I quoted it.
    Palestinians consistently support Barghouti as the preferred leader of the PA and the intifada, and Hamas lobbies for his release from Israeli prison. The dichotomy between the “organizations” you are alleging based on a screenshot is not an indication most Palestinians preferred the PA or peace to Hamas or intifada until 10/7. Some 80% of Palestinians consistently reject the authority of the PA to disarm any other group, so your argument is inaccurate to begin with. Under Abbas’ leadership, the PA has been unpopular relative to Hamas since well before the 10/7 attacks, as cited.
    This isn’t true either. Moreover, it’s silly to argue in the first place that Hamas’ popularity with Palestinians because of the October 7 attacks means people don’t actually support Hamas.
    If you’re going to argue against a source you referenced, I’ll leave you to it.
    You're not really presenting arguments relevant to what you're responding to. You tried to lie through use of statistics and failed to address those points. Then you chose to lie about what the statistics I provided said and failed to even address them beyond denial.
    The Armenian Issue

  12. #2572
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    When a growing majority of Palestinians support forever war with Israel…, it becomes more and more difficult to reconcile this to the preferred narrative that they are passive victims of a conflict they have no agency in. https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israe...imates-by-half
    Not really, LT. Why U.N. lowered Gaza death toll for women and children

    Here's a closer look at the figures:
    The U.N. humanitarian agency, citing Gaza's Health Ministry, says 7,797 children and 4,959 women were killed in Gaza as of April 30.
    Those figures, however, only account for 70% of deaths fully identified.
    U.N. spokesperson Farhan Haq says Gaza's Health Ministry is still working to fully identify 10,000 or more deaths. Based on the identities confirmed so far, though, the U.N. now says about 52% of those killed have been women and children.
    Haq, who is the deputy spokesperson for the U.N. secretary-general, was asked in a briefing Monday about media reports, one of which was shared by Israel's foreign minister, that said the U.N. had halved the number of women and children it had been saying were killed in Gaza.

    "It's not quite the case," Haq said. "The overall number of fatalities that has been tallied by the Ministry of Health in Gaza, which is our counterpart on dealing with the death tolls, that number remains unchanged," he said, reiterating the figure stands at more than 35,000.
    --------
    Poor, innocent Israelis, "passive victims of a conflict they have no agency in"...

    …. Read attentively. Peter Singer, Professor of Bioethics at Princeton University, is a Jew who saw his parents’ become refugees and three of his grandparents unable to save themselves in time, murdered in the Holocaust.
    When Is Criticism of Israel Anti-Semitic?

    Last month, Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu condemned the protests on US campuses against his country’s attacks on Gaza, saying that they were “reminiscent of what happened in German universities in the 1930s.” He was, apparently, comparing the protesters to the Nazi student groups that beat up Jewish students and faculty.

    That comparison dilutes the horror of Nazism by overlooking both the extent of the violence that Nazi students inflicted on anyone who was Jewish and their avowedly racist goal of purging the universities of all Jewish students and professors. They achieved that goal after the Nazis came to power, and we can now see that it was a step toward their ultimate objective: a world without Jews.

    I know what Nazi anti-Semitism in the 1930s was like. My parents, Viennese Jews, became refugees. My grandparents did not leave in time, and three of them were murdered in the Holocaust. When I was a child, my father would rise early on Sunday mornings and take out photos of his extended family, weeping over the loss, not only of his parents, but of aunts, uncles, and cousins.

    My family’s history led me, when I was an undergraduate, to study the rise of fascism and anti-Semitism in Europe in the 1930s. I read some of the primary sources, like the virulently anti-Semitic newspaper Der Stürmer (The Stormtrooper), and although I eventually took up philosophy rather than history, the visceral hatred of Jews that came through these writings made a lasting impression on me.

    Undoubtedly, some anti-Semites have used today’s student protests as cover for stirring up hatred of anyone Jewish, irrespective of their views on what is happening in Gaza. But to characterize the protests in general as comparable to Nazi anti-Semitism is grotesque.


    Netanyahu stands in a long line of defenders of Israel who seek to brand critics as anti-Semites. Now the US House of Representatives has – perhaps unwittingly – lent its support to blurring the crucial distinction between anti-Semitism and opposition to Israel. By a 320-91 vote, the House approved a resolution that combines a condemnation of anti-Semitism with the stipulation that the US Department of Education should use the definition of anti-Semitism developed by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance.

    The way the IHRA initially defines anti-Semitism is simple and unobjectionable: “Anti-Semitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews.” The problem is that this definition is followed by examples of anti-Semitism, one of which is: “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.”

    In 1896, when Theodor Herzl published “The Jewish State,” a pamphlet that is widely regarded as the founding text of Zionism, there were very few Jews living in what is now Israel. Jews everywhere felt a historical connection to the Israel of the Hebrew bible, and each year, at Passover, they would say, “Next year in Jerusalem.” But that was a ritual, not the expression of a desire to move there. For my parents, in the years before the Nazis came to power, the idea of leaving buzzing, sophisticated, multicultural Vienna for Palestine was laughable.

    The early Zionist movement popularized the slogan: “A land without a people for a people without a land.” It was true that Jews at that time were a minority everywhere, so there was no land, or country, that was predominantly Jewish. But it was also obviously false that Palestine was without people.

    If we assert that Jews, or Roma, or any other people who are everywhere a minority have a right to self-determination, we should surely acknowledge that any such right must be constrained by the rights of others to determine the kind of state that will govern the land in which they live. For those groups that are everywhere a minority, that may mean that there is no country in which they can exercise a national or collective right to self-determination.

    What about the claim that the state of Israel is a racist endeavor? Israel’s Law of Return gives me the right to become a citizen of Israel, even though I am an atheist, have never observed Jewish religious laws, learned Hebrew, or had a bar mitzvah. But the fact that my maternal grandmother was Jewish is enough for me to have the right to “return” to Israel. That does seem uncomfortably close to a racist criterion for deciding who has the right to become a citizen of Israel.

    In 2010, as part of a group of Australian Jews, I publicly renounced my right of return. We did so because we do not believe that we should have that right when Palestinians who can document that their ancestors had homes in what is now Israel, and at least some of whose ancestors were driven out by hostile Jewish military or paramilitary action, do not.

    Despite my objections to the IHRA definition, I acknowledge that it does, to its credit, include the important statement that “criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as anti-Semitic.” That’s sufficient to show that Netanyahu is wrong to describe what is happening on US campuses as anti-Semitism.

    Strong criticism would be leveled against any country that subjected a civilian population to the widespread bombardment that Israel has launched against Gaza, even if the country were responding to horrific attacks like those committed by Hamas on October 7, 2023. That is why today’s protests, taken as a whole, cannot be labeled anti-Semitic.
    Ditto. The truth is that the heart of the West only has room for one guilt: the extermination of the Jews. Europe protects Israel as if it were its own child and turns a blind eye when it comes to Gaza. The extermination of other peoples, slavery, racism against ethnic groups other than Jews, the massacres of colonialism are… “history”. With the populist radical right gaining strength in Europe, some of it anti-Semitic, it's likely that even guilt towards the Jews will be erased. An example: Tânger Correia, head of the list of the third largest Portuguese party (Chega/Enough) in the European elections, said, in a televised debate, that "Jewish workers in the Twin Towers were warned about the attacks of September 11, 2001". As for Muslims? “they're easily controlled”, he said. Tânger Corrêa: “Judeus podem ter sido avisados.

    It's interesting to note that today, (19/5) the leader of the racist party "Chega/Enough", André Ventura, is in Spain hugging and kissing Israel's diaspora minister. André Ventura stated that "Turks are a lazy people" during a recent parliamentary debate. When a Socialist Party deputy asked the President of the Assembly of the Republic if, henceforth, "deputies can say that a race is either dumber or lazier," the response was clear: "yes, they can, under the freedom of expression allowed to deputies."
    It is evident that if the targeted ethnicity were Jews, the reaction would not be the same.
    I cannot see the President of the Assembly allowing insults against Jews. At most, he could have said, "they can, but they shouldn't." After all, it is the duty of the President of the Assembly of the Republic, the second highest-ranking official in the state after the president, to act as a moderator.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  13. #2573

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Not really, LT
    Yes really.
    United Nations cuts Gaza civilian casualty estimates by half

    Initially reported on May 6, the UN cited figures of approximately 9,500 women and 14,500 children killed since the beginning of the conflict on October 7.

    According to the latest UN report on May 8, approximately 4,959 women and 7,797 children have been killed thus far in the conflict.

    The UN has acknowledged that its initial reliance on data from the Palestinian Ministry of Health, administered by Hamas in Gaza, contributed to the inflated figures.
    The dramatic revision includes thousands of men previously labeled women, children or unidentified. This isn’t surprising since Hamas classifies battlefield casualties as civilians, creating similar large discrepancies in previous conflicts as well, not just the current one. The new figures are also more consistent with Israeli estimates that around half of the death toll in Gaza is comprised of jihadist militants. I’m not interested in the efforts of UN press agents to save face or double down. If they are worried about their credibility, they shouldn’t rely on terrorists for data collection.
    Poor, innocent Israelis, "passive victims of a conflict they have no agency in"...
    The IDF has a responsibility to minimize collateral damage like any other modern military does. For whatever reason, the jihadists who refuse to protect Palestinian civilians and instead seek to maximize their death and suffering, do not have any responsibility, and worse, are entrusted to count the bodies on behalf of the entire world.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; May 19, 2024 at 10:53 AM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  14. #2574

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/...rch%202024.pdf

    Most Palestinians support Hamas over the PA, the nominal state government of “Palestine,” by orders of magnitude. 59% in prefer that Hamas remain in control of Gaza indefinitely, only 13% want the PA to return. 64% believe Hamas will defeat Israel militarily, and 73% oppose organizing a coalition of Arab peacekeeping forces under the PA to control Gaza after the war.

    71% support Hamas’ decision to launch the 10/7 attacks, 81% of those who have seen footage of the atrocities Hamas proudly recorded that day do not consider them problematic, and 72% are satisfied with Hamas’ performance since then.

    If an election were held, 63% of Palestinians say they would back militant jihadist candidates, including the political leader of Hamas. Only 8% would vote for Abbas. 71% want Abbas to resign from office altogether.

    Palestinians support intifada over negotiated peace and political resistance by a 2 to 1 margin. 63% oppose peace negotiations with the goal of a two state solution. 52% oppose a two state solution altogether, and 61% believe it is not even a realistic proposal.

    The plain fact of the matter is most Palestinians support Hamas, support intifada and hate the PA. Only in the minds of delusional westerners is a magic two state solution with equal rights for everyone headed by the PA a relevant concept.

    I have mentioned before how silly it is for western liberals and leftists to parade around with the flag of the despised PA demanding solutions that have already been rejected by the people they claim to advocate for. But it is even more ridiculous to see the mental gymnastics on display throughout, attempting to portray Hamas as some rogue fringe anomaly that no one actually supports and has no agency in the conflict. Palestinians support Hamas and the 10/7 attacks. Most western leftist protesters wreaking havoc in the streets support Hamas and the 10/7 attacks. And because of that support, Palestinians hold out hope for final military victory over the hated Jew, sure to be vanquished by the heroic holy warriors of Hamas.

    If people clutching pearls over anything the IDF is responsible for really want to end the war and stop the suffering, they would get tf out of the way and stop trying to prevent the IDF from finishing the job. Until then, Palestinians will continue to support intifada and oppose political negotiations, because they feel supported at home and abroad, and therefore they will continue to serve as meat shields for their jihadist heroes in a conflict that has no end in sight.
    It is sad to see a mind that can write such an apparently elegant reply to be so miopic as to not recognize the fact that there is an ongoing genocide that can be stopped at any moment by the powers that be (ie. Israel/the U.S.). The argument that destroying an entire country can get rid of its terrorism is so ridiculously stupid that you need to go to extreme methods to try to make a case for this now, especially after the complete and utter failure of the Americans' attempt to destroy "terrorism" (A.K.A. resistance against Western imperialism) in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria Lybia, etc...

    I feel saddened that people can be brainwashed to such a level as to attempt to justify a genocide based on false premises. The reality is that Hamas are child's play compared to the evil of the military industrial complex that the U.S. and Israel represent. These people have a vested interest in bombing poor third world countries and to perpetuate a state of eternal wars in order to continue justifying the mass production of the bombs and guns that they sell. I feel you are a petty spokesperson for these interests, and for the love of all that is right I still cannot fathom how anyone with more than two brain cells cannot see what is happening at this point for what it really is. It bespeaks of two possible realities of people whose minds think like yours': either such minds are incredibly misguided, or they are incredibly evil. But probably both.

    In any case, I am done with this b.s.... mankind really needs an awakening before we blow ourselves up... in the end of course it is of no matter... life is but a dream and all is an illusion. We will close our eyes, and open them to new realities. Perpetually. No need to be saddened, no need to be distraught by the sad state of affairs of the human race... this is but another cycle in the endless cycle of samsara. No hurt feelings... My only wish is for mankind to wake up from its slumber, and to realize that violence is not the way before we become another extinct species... but perhaps it's my human ego that is feeling threatened... who knows, perhaps cockroaches have a far better chance of becoming enlightened than us humans, and I should just bow down to the future cockroaches as we human beings make our exit and become a showcase for cockroaches in their museums.
    Last edited by Siblesz; May 19, 2024 at 06:29 PM.
    Hypocrisy is the foundation of sin.

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  15. #2575
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Third world planet has third world planet issues.
    Sure, it will be better if the particular dumb entity you were born in does better - so do analogous people in other countries think.
    Meanwhile life edges nearer to its end, and you achieved nothing at all.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  16. #2576

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    It is sad to see a mind that can write such an apparently elegant reply to be so miopic as to not recognize the fact that there is an ongoing genocide that can be stopped at any moment by the powers that be (ie. Israel/the U.S.). The argument that destroying an entire country can get rid of its terrorism is so ridiculously stupid that you need to go to extreme methods to try to make a case for this now, especially after the complete and utter failure of the Americans' attempt to destroy "terrorism" (A.K.A. resistance against Western imperialism) in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria Lybia, etc...
    Lots of major countries have committed substantial resources to fighting Islamic terrorism around the world. What Israel faces and has always faced from inception is existential, not a mere question of eliminating terrorism or extremism. Without escalation dominance, the US loses its global influence. Without escalation dominance, Israel cannot exist. 10/7 proved to the world it doesn’t actually have that dominance. Equating Israel’s capabilities or geopolitics with America’s isn’t just ideologically simplistic, it’s also bad analysis. If Israel or the US could “just stop” an ethnoreligious holy war whenever they wanted, they would have, and there is no good reason why they bear more responsibility for Palestinian lives than do the latter’s political, military and religious leaders.
    I feel saddened that people can be brainwashed to such a level as to attempt to justify a genocide based on false premises. The reality is that Hamas are child's play compared to the evil of the military industrial complex that the U.S. and Israel represent. These people have a vested interest in bombing poor third world countries and to perpetuate a state of eternal wars in order to continue justifying the mass production of the bombs and guns that they sell. I feel you are a petty spokesperson for these interests, and for the love of all that is right I still cannot fathom how anyone with more than two brain cells cannot see what is happening at this point for what it really is. It bespeaks of two possible realities of people whose minds think like yours': either such minds are incredibly misguided, or they are incredibly evil. But probably both.
    I find it either incredibly misguided or evil that opposition to Israel has leaned on the G word as some kind of intellectual trump card, discussing a conflict that draws its significance almost entirely from Israel’s special relationship with the United States. Despite the moral premise critical of Israel’s actions that you’ve presented, the real significance of your argument is the alleged global struggle against the US. Accusations of genocide aren’t about determining whether or not one is actually taking place, but rather, to be used as a rallying cry for this “global struggle.” I don’t think Israel’s goal in this conflict is to perpetuate a genocide, and I haven’t seen an argument affirming that with any more detail than the adjacent abstractions like “America makes wars everywhere to sell guns.” The problem with these accusations isn’t just that they are made in bad faith, it’s that they are bad analyses.

    This war is not in the interests of the US or Israel, or the Gulf States. It is in the interests of the latter’s adversaries, who seek to derail normalization of Israel’s ties with the Arab world, destabilize the region and complicate the US’ pivot to Asia. Because Israel no longer has escalation dominance, it is the clash between those interests and Israel’s existential security interests that will determine the course of the war. What we can dispense with from the outset is the fantasy that a two state solution is feasible or is what motivates Palestinian resistance. The latter want Israel gone, and they have been emboldened by 10/7. They will not stop fighting until they are collectively convinced of inevitable defeat.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  17. #2577

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Lots of major countries have committed substantial resources to fighting Islamic terrorism around the world. What Israel faces and has always faced from inception is existential, not a mere question of eliminating terrorism or extremism. Without escalation dominance, the US loses its global influence. Without escalation dominance, Israel cannot exist. 10/7 proved to the world it doesn’t actually have that dominance. Equating Israel’s capabilities or geopolitics with America’s isn’t just ideologically simplistic, it’s also bad analysis. If Israel or the US could “just stop” an ethnoreligious holy war whenever they wanted, they would have, and there is no good reason why they bear more responsibility for Palestinian lives than do the latter’s political, military and religious leaders.

    I find it either incredibly misguided or evil that opposition to Israel has leaned on the G word as some kind of intellectual trump card, discussing a conflict that draws its significance almost entirely from Israel’s special relationship with the United States. Despite the moral premise critical of Israel’s actions that you’ve presented, the real significance of your argument is the alleged global struggle against the US. Accusations of genocide aren’t about determining whether or not one is actually taking place, but rather, to be used as a rallying cry for this “global struggle.” I don’t think Israel’s goal in this conflict is to perpetuate a genocide, and I haven’t seen an argument affirming that with any more detail than the adjacent abstractions like “America makes wars everywhere to sell guns.” The problem with these accusations isn’t just that they are made in bad faith, it’s that they are bad analyses.

    This war is not in the interests of the US or Israel, or the Gulf States. It is in the interests of the latter’s adversaries, who seek to derail normalization of Israel’s ties with the Arab world, destabilize the region and complicate the US’ pivot to Asia. Because Israel no longer has escalation dominance, it is the clash between those interests and Israel’s existential security interests that will determine the course of the war. What we can dispense with from the outset is the fantasy that a two state solution is feasible or is what motivates Palestinian resistance. The latter want Israel gone, and they have been emboldened by 10/7. They will not stop fighting until they are collectively convinced of inevitable defeat.
    The whole premise of you argument is made as if Israel had no choice but to invade Gaza and kill 35,000 people. Which is of course not true. This has been building up from a looong time ago, and Hamas itself is an entity that was funded in the first place by the people that are attacking it now, Netanyahu and his cronies accepting that very fact. They propped up Hamas in order to create division and discord between the Palestinians and in the aim of one day completely taking over all Palestinian lands (which is what they are openly attempting now.)
    https://www.thenation.com/article/wo...lstered-hamas/

    Fact of the matter is that Israel has been hijacked by religious right wing nut jobs that are religiously motivated. They couldn't care less for the future of their own country. If they were interested in Israel's survival, they would not have antagonized the entire world against them. They are more interested in their apocalyptic yearnings of bringing the messiah and making sure their self-fulfilling idiotic prophecy plays out than they are in hoping for a future where Jews and Israelis have a peaceful place they can call home.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; May 22, 2024 at 03:52 AM. Reason: Personal.
    Hypocrisy is the foundation of sin.

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  18. #2578

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    A good interview on this. Why Israel is in deep trouble: John Mearsheimer with Tom Switzer
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAfIYtpcBxo
    Hypocrisy is the foundation of sin.

    Proud patron of: The Magnanimous Household of Siblesz
    Timendi causa est nescire.
    Member of S.I.N.

  19. #2579

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Siblesz View Post
    The whole premise of you argument is made as if Israel had no choice but to invade Gaza and kill 35,000 people. Which is of course not true.
    There is no realistic scenario in which any democratically elected government would not do the same after October 7th.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siblesz View Post
    Hamas itself is an entity that was funded in the first place by the people that are attacking it now
    This is false.

    According to the article you cited, Israel has been funding Hams since the 1970s. Hamas was founded in 1987.

    In actuality, this is what happened:

    Hamas traces its roots back to the Muslim Brotherhood, a group set up in Egypt in 1928. The Brotherhood believed that the woes of the Arab world spring from a lack of Islamic devotion. Its slogan: "Islam is the solution. The Quran is our constitution." Its philosophy today underpins modern, and often militantly intolerant, political Islam from Algeria to Indonesia.

    After the 1948 establishment of Israel, the Brotherhood recruited a few followers in Palestinian refugee camps in Gaza and elsewhere, but secular activists came to dominate the Palestinian nationalist movement.

    At the time, Gaza was ruled by Egypt. The country's then-president, Gamal Abdel Nasser, was a secular nationalist who brutally repressed the Brotherhood. In 1967, Nasser suffered a crushing defeat when Israel triumphed in the six-day war. Israel took control of Gaza and also the West Bank.

    "We were all stunned," says Palestinian writer and Hamas supporter Azzam Tamimi. He was at school at the time in Kuwait and says he became close to a classmate named Khaled Mashaal, now Hamas's Damascus-based political chief. "The Arab defeat provided the Brotherhood with a big opportunity," says Mr. Tamimi.

    In Gaza, Israel hunted down members of Fatah and other secular PLO factions, but it dropped harsh restrictions imposed on Islamic activists by the territory's previous Egyptian rulers. Fatah, set up in 1964, was the backbone of the PLO, which was responsible for hijackings, bombings and other violence against Israel. Arab states in 1974 declared the PLO the "sole legitimate representative" of the Palestinian people world-wide.

    The Muslim Brotherhood, led in Gaza by Sheikh Yassin, was free to spread its message openly. In addition to launching various charity projects, Sheikh Yassin collected money to reprint the writings of Sayyid Qutb, an Egyptian member of the Brotherhood who, before his execution by President Nasser, advocated global jihad. He is now seen as one of the founding ideologues of militant political Islam.

    Mr. Cohen, who worked at the time for the Israeli government's religious affairs department in Gaza, says he began to hear disturbing reports in the mid-1970s about Sheikh Yassin from traditional Islamic clerics. He says they warned that the sheikh had no formal Islamic training and was ultimately more interested in politics than faith. "They said, 'Keep away from Yassin. He is a big danger,'" recalls Mr. Cohen.

    Instead, Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy. The university was one of the first targets hit by Israeli warplanes in the recent war.

    Brig. General Yosef Kastel, Gaza's Israeli governor at the time, is too ill to comment, says his wife. But Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who took over as governor in Gaza in late 1979, says he had no illusions about Sheikh Yassin's long-term intentions or the perils of political Islam. As Israel's former military attache in Iran, he'd watched Islamic fervor topple the Shah. However, in Gaza, says Mr. Segev, "our main enemy was Fatah," and the cleric "was still 100% peaceful" towards Israel. Former officials say Israel was also at the time wary of being viewed as an enemy of Islam.

    Mr. Segev says he had regular contact with Sheikh Yassin, in part to keep an eye on him. He visited his mosque and met the cleric around a dozen times. It was illegal at the time for Israelis to meet anyone from the PLO. Mr. Segev later arranged for the cleric to be taken to Israel for hospital treatment. "We had no problems with him," he says.

    Clashes between Islamists and secular nationalists spread to the West Bank and escalated during the early 1980s, convulsing college campuses, particularly Birzeit University, a center of political activism.

    As the fighting between rival student factions at Birzeit grew more violent, Brig. Gen. Shalom Harari, then a military intelligence officer in Gaza, says he received a call from Israeli soldiers manning a checkpoint on the road out of Gaza. They had stopped a bus carrying Islamic activists who wanted to join the battle against Fatah at Birzeit. "I said: 'If they want to burn each other let them go,'" recalls Mr. Harari.

    A leader of Birzeit's Islamist faction at the time was Mahmoud Musleh, now a pro-Hamas member of a Palestinian legislature elected in 2006. He recalls how usually aggressive Israeli security forces stood back and let conflagration develop. He denies any collusion between his own camp and the Israelis, but says "they hoped we would become an alternative to the PLO."

    A year later, in 1984, the Israeli military received a tip-off from Fatah supporters that Sheikh Yassin's Gaza Islamists were collecting arms, according to Israeli officials in Gaza at the time. Israeli troops raided a mosque and found a cache of weapons. Sheikh Yassin was jailed. He told Israeli interrogators the weapons were for use against rival Palestinians, not Israel, according to Mr. Hacham, the military affairs expert who says he spoke frequently with jailed Islamists. The cleric was released after a year and continued to expand Mujama's reach across Gaza.

    Around the time of Sheikh Yassin's arrest, Mr. Cohen, the religious affairs official, sent a report to senior Israeli military and civilian officials in Gaza. Describing the cleric as a "diabolical" figure, he warned that Israel's policy towards the Islamists was allowing Mujama to develop into a dangerous force.

    "I believe that by continuing to turn away our eyes, our lenient approach to Mujama will in the future harm us. I therefore suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face," Mr. Cohen wrote.

    Mr. Harari, the military intelligence officer, says this and other warnings were ignored. But, he says, the reason for this was neglect, not a desire to fortify the Islamists: "Israel never financed Hamas. Israel never armed Hamas."

    Roni Shaked, a former officer of Shin Bet, Israel's internal security service, and author of a book on Hamas, says Sheikh Yassin and his followers had a long-term perspective whose dangers were not understood at the time. "They worked slowly, slowly, step by step according to the Muslim Brotherhood plan."

    In 1987, several Palestinians were killed in a traffic accident involving an Israeli driver, triggering a wave of protests that became known as the first Intifada, Mr. Yassin and six other Mujama Islamists launched Hamas, or the Islamic Resistance Movement. Hamas's charter, released a year later, is studded with anti-Semitism and declares "jihad its path and death for the cause of Allah its most sublime belief."

    Israeli officials, still focused on Fatah and initially unaware of the Hamas charter, continued to maintain contacts with the Gaza Islamists. Mr. Hacham, the military Arab affairs expert, remembers taking one of Hamas's founders, Mahmoud Zahar, to meet Israel's then defense minister, Yitzhak Rabin, as part of regular consultations between Israeli officials and Palestinians not linked to the PLO. Mr. Zahar, the only Hamas founder known to be alive today, is now the group's senior political leader in Gaza.

    In 1989, Hamas carried out its first attack on Israel, abducting and killing two soldiers. Israel arrested Sheikh Yassin and sentenced him to life. It later rounded up more than 400 suspected Hamas activists, including Mr. Zahar, and deported them to southern Lebanon. There, they hooked up with Hezbollah, the Iran-backed A-Team of anti-Israeli militancy.

    Many of the deportees later returned to Gaza. Hamas built up its arsenal and escalated its attacks, while all along maintaining the social network that underpinned its support in Gaza.
    The Israelis are guilty of not being able to foresee what Mujama al-Islamiya would become, but if they had, what could they have done? I'm sure Israel shutting down mosques, libraries, clinics, kindergartens, and charities would have gone over well with the international community. No doubt we would now be hearing that if Israel hadn't oppressed the Islamists they would have never turned violent.

    Fast forward three decades, Netanyahu and the Israeli far right did see Hamas as politically useful. Hamas was useful as an example of what an independent Palestinian state would be like, but Netanyahu apparently came to the conclusion that they were all talk, that they were more interested in embezzling funds than jihad. According to Hamas themselves, they actively cultivated this deception, and Netanyahu fell for it. He thought that allowing Qatar to funnel money into Gaza would be enough to keep the situation relatively quiet. It should be noted that his view on this was more in line with the international community, who generally claimed that Hamas had moderated and that the path to peace would involve improving the material living conditions of Palestinians. Of course, both Netanyahu and those in the international community making such claims were wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siblesz View Post
    Fact of the matter is that Israel has been hijacked by religious right wing nut jobs that are religiously motivated. They couldn't care less for the future of their own country. If they were interested in Israel's survival, they would not have antagonized the entire world against them. They are more interested in their apocalyptic yearnings of bringing the messiah and making sure their self-fulfilling idiotic prophecy plays out than they are in hoping for a future where Jews and Israelis have a peaceful place they can call home.
    Nah, this is what makes Israelis relatively immune to international pressure (written in October by a center-left Israeli):

    Supporters of the Palestinian cause in the West, even as they are discomfited by images of parents lying murdered in front of their children or the burned corpses of babies, are now asking a simple question in Hamas’s defense: “What would you do if faced with decades of Israeli occupation?” Israel’s policies in the West Bank and toward Gaza, and the pain and injustices that flow from them, they argue, are the cause of the kind of hatred on display on October 7.

    The problem for Palestinians — and it is a problem with immense consequences for them — is that the vast majority of Israelis disagree. They believe Hamas would have acted the same even if the occupation had ended two decades ago. This belief may seem self-serving to outsiders, but it’s rooted in deep and painful experience.

    The fall of 2000 saw the start of a wave of some 140 suicide bombings in Israeli cities and towns, killing grandmothers and infants in buses and pizzerias and driving the political left from power so comprehensively that a generation later it has scarcely recovered.

    The shattering effect of this mass murder wasn’t caused just by the shock and trauma of the attacks. It was also the timing.

    In 2000, the peace process hadn’t yet seen two decades of stagnation. No far-right parties sat in the ruling coalition. Ending the occupation was an idea that won an election. Negotiators at Camp David were reported to be discussing shared Israeli-Palestinian sovereignty on the Temple Mount. There were no Israeli soldiers in any Palestinian city or town — they’d been pulled out over the previous three years — and Palestinian incomes and college education rates were rising. Things seemed to be falling into place. Peace, many Israelis assumed, was imminent.

    The political left had also fought what amounted to an internal political civil war to get to that point, seen its leader assassinated and eked out a hard-won victory in the 1999 election to finish the job of peacemaking, and the result of its efforts was the most gruesome and sustained Palestinian assault on Israeli civilians in the country’s history.

    So what was that massive, sustained terrorist wave about?

    Palestinian explanations only heightened the anger. Palestinian officials went on Israeli television and told Israelis that the culprit was the visit to the Temple Mount by then-opposition leader Ariel Sharon shortly before the outbreak of violence. For the Israeli left, it was worse than no explanation at all. It amounted to telling left-wing Israelis that all their struggles and sacrifices for peace had stood on a foundation of dust and were demolished by the first act of right-wing political posturing that Palestinians found unpleasant. This spasm of killings, the Palestinian explanation implied, was inevitable.

    Palestinian intellectuals have since offered better answers, including that the violence began as an internal Palestinian uprising against Yasser Arafat’s increasingly tyrannical regime in Ramallah, a kind of presaging of the Arab Spring in 2011, and was quickly deflected by a frightened Arafat into a campaign of terrorism targeting Israeli civilians.

    But amid the bombings, few Israelis had the bandwidth to contemplate such complexities.

    To them, it felt like all Palestinians had rallied to the murderous campaign. To recruit hundreds of suicide bombers (some 140 made it past the Israeli security services; a much larger number tried or made plans to), one needs an infrastructure of recruitment, a leadership that offers religious and social validation for the attacks, supply networks, laboratories and engineers to produce the bombs, a basic intelligence apparatus to help the bombers past Israeli security, along with bank accounts, safe-houses and the like.

    And for what? The question has haunted and undermined the Israeli left for a generation.

    Would an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank have prevented Hamas’s attack on October 7? Israelis, still living in the shadow of that two-decade-old trauma, do not think so. They believe, truly and earnestly, including among liberal voters, that such a withdrawal would only have created a larger terror polity capable of launching a much larger rampage.

    And that Israeli belief is the Palestinians’ single biggest strategic problem, even if neither their leaders nor their overseas supporters are willing to acknowledge it.

    This belief immunizes Israelis to outside pressure. If the response of Palestinian politics to the Oslo peace process was the mass murder of Israeli civilians, and the response of Palestinian politics to the stagnation of the peace process under Benjamin Netanyahu is the mass murder of Israeli civilians, then Israeli policy isn’t the cause of Palestinian mass murder of Israeli civilians.

    Similarly, while overseas activists threaten Israelis with boycotts if they don’t leave the West Bank, Hamas threatens Israelis with murder from any territory they do abandon. Hamas is louder.

    The point isn’t that this Israeli experience is the objective, comprehensive historical truth, but only that the vast majority of the Israeli Jewish mainstream believes it and that this belief is strong and rooted in blood-soaked experience. It has rendered Israelis immune to both foreign economic pressure and Palestinian violence.

    In the Israeli mind, the Palestinian national movement seems set against itself. There is nothing the global campaign for Palestine can do in the Israeli psyche that Hamas’s brutality won’t undo.

    Then came Saturday, and the death of Israeli questions. For a moment, Israel’s guard went down. Hamas was free to live out its intentions. It did so with blazing clarity and purpose.

    It is obvious to Israelis that Hamas’s brutal strategy cannot liberate Palestinians, so the violence can’t be explained to them as an attempt at liberation. Nor does Hamas bother to articulate its strategic rationale to Israelis, as Algeria’s FLN once did so clearly to the French. It asks them to flee or die, but can’t articulate where they should flee to.

    Israelis are now convinced that the massacre on October 7, in its enormity and astonishing cruelty, and especially in the joy with which it was carried out, wasn’t a Palestinian miscalculation, because Palestinian independence wasn’t its goal.

    The goal on October 7, as in the fall of 2000, was simply the complete removal of the Jews from this land.

    With clarity comes closure. Israelis are unified as never before, and not just by the horrors perpetrated by Hamas. Their question is answered at long last. The brutality they once saw as a question turned out to be the answer, the purpose and end of much of Palestinian politics.

    One can seek out the ideological roots of Hamas’s strategy of brutality in 20th-century decolonization movements or in theologies of Islamic renewal. But that history is mere background decor to the essential point — that this is a brutality that explodes against peace processes as much as against threats of annexation. No peace and no withdrawal will satisfy this impulse or grant Israeli Jews safety from the kind of wild, joyful hatred displayed on October 7.

    And that brutality has now made itself too dangerous to be tolerated.

    Hamas does not yet seem to realize how deep the Israeli public’s determination goes. Hamas’s only strategy for survival seems to be forcing the Israel Defense Forces to inflict so high a civilian toll in Gaza that the world demands a stop to the Israeli war machine.

    But Israelis will be reeling from the images of October 7 for a long time to come. They have their answer, and from it flows a clarity of purpose that has been missing for the past three decades. The Israeli war machine will be implacable. Hamas will not survive.

    A tragedy is about to unfold in Gaza made worse by the long learning curve it will take for Hamas to grasp the depth of Israeli resolve. It has robbed Israel of any other interest but its destruction. In the Israeli mind, any brutality Hamas can commit it will commit. And so it cannot be allowed to ever commit any act ever again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  20. #2580

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    There is no realistic scenario in which any democratically elected government would not do the same after October 7th.
    Yet, Israel did just that in southern Lebanon when it successfully targeted Hezbollah and Hamas, killing Hamas leader of its forces in Lebanon.


    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    This is false.
    According to the article you cited, Israel has been funding Hams since the 1970s. Hamas was founded in 1987.
    In actuality, this is what happened:
    The Israelis are guilty of not being able to foresee what Mujama al-Islamiya would become, but if they had, what could they have done? I'm sure Israel shutting down mosques, libraries, clinics, kindergartens, and charities would have gone over well with the international community. No doubt we would now be hearing that if Israel hadn't oppressed the Islamists they would have never turned violent.
    Fast forward three decades, Netanyahu and the Israeli far right did see Hamas as politically useful. Hamas was useful as an example of what an independent Palestinian state would be like, but Netanyahu apparently came to the conclusion that they were all talk, that they were more interested in embezzling funds than jihad. According to Hamas themselves, they actively cultivated this deception, and Netanyahu fell for it. He thought that allowing Qatar to funnel money into Gaza would be enough to keep the situation relatively quiet. It should be noted that his view on this was more in line with the international community, who generally claimed that Hamas had moderated and that the path to peace would involve improving the material living conditions of Palestinians. Of course, both Netanyahu and those in the international community making such claims were wrong.
    This is an extremely naive take on Israeli responsibility of Hamas. Israelis did foresee Hamas becoming more violent. They had ample warning of it. Israel did get involved in funding Hamas as early as 1970s in the sense of supporting its founder. You know this, yet, you try to present it as an amateur error. The article is quite right on pointing out that Israel has been involved in funding Hamas and its camp as an extreme-right-wing force against a leftist camp that is more favorable worldwide. We know for a fact that Netanyahu himself has been pushing others to keep on funding Hamas while knowing full well of Hamas' training efforts on crossing the border, attacking Israeli bases and settlements. Notice how you try to shift potential targeting of Hamas openly training attacking Israeli bases to shutting down mosques. No one suggested those things.
    The Armenian Issue

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