Re: Religion in a nutshell
I will withdraw the joke if it is violation of the T and C.
Re: Religion in a nutshell
As much as I agree with you, I'm fairly certain this is a violation of TOS, and there is no actual debate you are trying to bring. OP
Re: Religion in a nutshell
In before lock
On a serious note generalizing all religions when there are so many variations and possible permutations, and when you only have experience with one, maybe two, is a rather unintelligent thing to do
Re: Religion in a nutshell
Nope. The fear of death is the far larger incentive in my view. The whole boogeyman thing is dependent on the psychological state of the believer, the more fundamentalist sects (of particularly Abrahamic religions) tend towards this particular extreme, while they are the loudest proponents of religion it's not fair to tarnish all religious people with the same brush.
Re: Religion in a nutshell
This is just a crappier version of my one topic, morality as a tool of control.
Re: Religion in a nutshell
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Himster
Nope. The fear of death is the far larger incentive in my view. The whole boogeyman thing is dependent on the psychological state of the believer, the more fundamentalist sects (of particularly Abrahamic religions) tend towards this particular extreme, while they are the loudest proponents of religion it's not fair to tarnish all religious people with the same brush.
A good point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Denny Crane!
This is just a crappier version of my one topic, morality as a tool of control.
But mine has clowns (and at the time, an inebriated original poster).
Re: Religion in a nutshell
I'd have to agree with Himster - human desperation to defy annihilation is possibly the most easily exploited and manipulated instinct we have.
Re: Religion in a nutshell
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gatsby
I'd have to agree with Himster - human desperation to defy annihilation is possibly the most easily exploited and manipulated instinct we have.
I think its more than that. Its not oblivion we fear as much as none of it having a purpose. Most religions afterlives are pretty "meh" or some even non-existent. Life having no purpose though, that scares people.
There is also the desperation of being helpless. Its where the idea of magic comes from. A prayer is just another spell of a shaman of old. It gives us focus when we are helpless. Why god would need, want, or answer prayers under current theological systems makes no sense, but that doesn't stop anyone. Some will at least be logically consistent and say you don't pay FOR things but to worship god. Yet I've heard those types saying they will say a prayer when someone is sick etc.
Re: Religion in a nutshell
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phier
I think its more than that. Its not oblivion we fear as much as none of it having a purpose. Most religions afterlives are pretty "meh" or some even non-existent. Life having no purpose though, that scares people.
There is also the desperation of being helpless. Its where the idea of magic comes from. A prayer is just another spell of a shaman of old. It gives us focus when we are helpless.
This makes me think of the learned helplessness model:
Quote:
Certain types of human depression are precipitated by stressful life events, and vulnerable individuals experiencing these stressors may develop clinical depression. Understanding the neurobiology of stress vulnerability (depression) as well as stress resiliency (coping) is critical for guiding the development of novel pharmacotherapeutic agents for stress-related disorders such as depression in humans. The use of a triadic design (escapable shock, yoked-inescapable shock and restrained control) allows the investigator to examine the various sequella of stress exposure, while manipulating and quantifying the impact of psychological dynamics of stress such as active behavioral coping (i.e., stress control). Both escape and yoked subjects are exposed to the identical amount, intensity, pattern and duration of stress. The critical distinction between these two groups is that the escape group has the opportunity to terminate the shock stress by turning a wheel at the front of a chamber, while wheel-turning for the yoked subject is of no consequence. Any difference observed between the escape and yoked subjects is a result of the effects of coping, rather than stress exposure per se. The restrained group is included to control for the effects of handling. Any differences between this group and the escape and yoked subjects reflects the impact of stress per se.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18428537
Some of the rats with learned helplessness won't even try to save themselves from drowning. The only difference is being conditioned to either believe or not believe you have some capability of changing your circumstances. Now imagine our ancestors with all sorts of terrible things happening to them on a regular basis and hardly any technology to overcome it. Of course there have now been discovered different genes that play a role in suseptability of learned helplessness. Last I heard, there are rats that are being bred to be easily depressable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phier
Why god would need, want, or answer prayers under current theological systems makes no sense, but that doesn't stop anyone. Some will at least be logically consistent and say you don't pay FOR things but to worship god. Yet I've heard those types saying they will say a prayer when someone is sick etc.
There are also all sorts of things in different religions that get called prayers that aren't asking for something, like prayers of thanksgiving, which must serve a different function. Anyway, regarding petitionary prayers, I came across this recently; It’s basically an ancient Egyptian petitionary prayer from the First Intermediate Period, but it’s not to a deity, it’s written by a man to his dead wife:
Quote:
A communication by Merirtyfy to Nebetiotef:
How are you? Is the West taking care of you [according to] your desire? Now since I am your beloved upon the earth, fight on my behalf, and intercede on behalf of my name. I did not garble [a spell] in your presence when I perpetuated your name on earth. Remove the infirmity of my body. Please become a spirit [before] my eyes so that I may see you in a dream fighting on my behalf. I will then deposit offerings for you [as soon as] the sun has arisen and outfit your offering slab for you.
A communication by Khuau to his sister:
I have not garbled [a spell] in your presence nor have I withdrawn offerings from you. Rather I have emptied out. Fight on my behalf, and fight on behalf of my wife and children.
I like how tacked on to the end it's like "oh yeah, your brother wants some stuff too".
Re: Religion in a nutshell
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sumskilz
This makes me think of the learned helplessness model:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18428537
Some of the rats with learned helplessness won't even try to save themselves from drowning. The only difference is being conditioned to either believe or not believe you have some capability of changing your circumstances. Now imagine our ancestors with all sorts of terrible things happening to them on a regular basis and hardly any technology to overcome it. Of course there have now been discovered different genes that play a role in suseptability of learned helplessness. Last I heard, there are rats that are being bred to be easily depressable.
Do you think we as humans convince our self that inescapable stress, like say a war, or plague, is escapable stress via prayer and therefore are better at coping? That would be my guess at any rate.
Re: Religion in a nutshell
In two days I will be entering hospital for my fourth cancer operation and the greatest source of contentment with that is that I have not lost one minutes sleep over me having cancer, why? Because I know, by experience, that whatever happens my Redeemer waits for me on both sides of the equation. In death to be with Him and in life to keep reminding all you guys of your folly. But then I am not religious and neither is the faith that has been given me.
Religion is an amalgam of particular beliefs that one can have and any of these does not necessarily include the Divine. One can do lots of things religiously like brushing one's teeth, having a fag sitting at one's computer and a whole host of things that become the normal thing to do in that person's case. The religion that so offended Jesus was just similar to that in that the ritual became more important than the belief. That is the case with all religion in that people do whatever they do without any thinking necessary.
Knowing God in the personal way that the born again do is quite different from all the above, why? Because knowing that their Redeemer liveth, their eyes are set on Him, their minds set on what He would do in any circumstance and as each circumstance is different in most cases, there is nothing religious about what they will do. You see it's a case of faith in Him that they will do the right thing yet if they don't there is no further condemnation that can be applied in their case, because He took care of all that at the cross on their behalf. The religious just go through the motions with no certainty at all.
Re: Religion in a nutshell
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phier
Do you think we as humans convince our self that inescapable stress, like say a war, or plague, is escapable stress via prayer and therefore are better at coping? That would be my guess at any rate.
Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I've noticed that when religions don't have petitionary prayers, they try to deal with it through re-framing, like non-attachment in Buddhism, but that's obviously more difficult for a lot of people than believing you have a deity or other supernatural being on your side, hence folk Buddhism.
Re: Religion in a nutshell
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gatsby
I'd have to agree with Himster - human desperation to defy annihilation is possibly the most easily exploited and manipulated instinct we have.
Yeah, there was an excellent part in that movie "The invention of lying", not an amazing movie: but there was one part, where his mother was dying and she was scared of dying so he invented the idea of heaven for her, it was surprisingly tear-jerking and incredibly easy to empathize with, it really does make the basic notion of religion seem not so stupid, it's like a rational lie, a product of of our instinct for empathy or our need to lessen the suffering of those we care about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXYvwEeWrm8&hd=1
Re: Religion in a nutshell
I reckon the 'heart' of religion is self-control.
Re: Religion in a nutshell
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sumskilz
Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I've noticed that when religions don't have petitionary prayers, they try to deal with it through re-framing, like non-attachment in Buddhism, but that's obviously more difficult for a lot of people than believing you have a deity or other supernatural being on your side, hence folk Buddhism.
I was thinking of this today. Due to circumstances outside my control (ironically an "act of god" on paper) I had a very stressful day. It would have been nice to cast a magic spell, pray, whatever to have helped with that stress. It all mostly worked out ok and I could then be thanking some deity or spirit for their help. Its appeal is obviously strong. Its sort of depressing to think that self delusion is a survival trait.
Re: Religion in a nutshell
Quote:
Originally Posted by
basics
In two days I will be entering hospital for my fourth cancer operation and the greatest source of contentment with that is that I have not lost one minutes sleep over me having cancer, why? Because I know, by experience, that whatever happens my Redeemer waits for me on both sides of the equation. In death to be with Him and in life to keep reminding all you guys of your folly. But then I am not religious and neither is the faith that has been given me.
Religion is an amalgam of particular beliefs that one can have and any of these does not necessarily include the Divine. One can do lots of things religiously like brushing one's teeth, having a fag sitting at one's computer and a whole host of things that become the normal thing to do in that person's case. The religion that so offended Jesus was just similar to that in that the ritual became more important than the belief. That is the case with all religion in that people do whatever they do without any thinking necessary.
Knowing God in the personal way that the born again do is quite different from all the above, why? Because knowing that their Redeemer liveth, their eyes are set on Him, their minds set on what He would do in any circumstance and as each circumstance is different in most cases, there is nothing religious about what they will do. You see it's a case of faith in Him that they will do the right thing yet if they don't there is no further condemnation that can be applied in their case, because He took care of all that at the cross on their behalf. The religious just go through the motions with no certainty at all.
Hope you get better, man.
Back to the OP --
Religion is notorious for being a very emotional subject. Fear of death, which is especially potent when it is fearing the death of your family and friends, is a topic that religion often uses to hook people in, or if not that, simply comfort them. In most cases this probably isn't done to purposefully "hook" people and get them to join the church, but that is nevertheless the effect of creating these emotional bonds. And once religion is in that area of emotional thought, it's very hard to think about it in a critical way anymore.
