Re: Illustrations from Alhambra, Spain, 14th century
It is interesting to note that crossbows were being used by horsemen, as one of the illustrations showed. These don't seem for hunting, and without out a mechanical assist, which there is no indication of, couldn't have been that powerful. That would seem that a bow no more powerful than a hunting bow was still useful on the battlefield. A bow apparently didn't have to be a very powerful (80 lbs+) bow to still be useful on tne battlefield.
Also, a coupke pictures show the western (christian?) forces clearly wearing mail or plate armor, while all you see is flowing robes on the Arab forces. Did that mean the Arab forces did not wear anmor as their counterparts did, or was the armor worn under the flowing robes, so you just can't see it?!!
Re: Illustrations from Alhambra, Spain, 14th century
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Common Soldier
Also, a couple pictures show the western (christian?) forces clearly wearing mail or plate armor, while all you see is flowing robes on the Arab forces. Did that mean the Arab forces did not wear armor as their counterparts did, or was the armor worn under the flowing robes, so you just can't see it?!!
During the 13th century the best armoured Andalusian cavalry copied Christian Spanish armour fashion, see illustrations of soldiers in Las Cantigas de Santa Maria, c.1284, later armour was much lighter than Christian Spanish armour, but it could be worn under armour in Arab fashion.
mirror site
illustrations of soldiers in Las Cantigas de Santa Maria, c.1284
Druzhina345
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers
Re: Illustrations from Alhambra, Spain, 14th century
Quote:
Originally Posted by
druzhina345
Most of the pictures shown of Muslim forces show them wearing robes, with no mail arnor obviously present. For example, in picture Cantiga 181, the Muslims shown on tne left are all in flowing robes, and there is no evidende of any mail armor being worn by them. The Christian forces on tne right are clearly shown wearint mail armor up to their chins.
Only in the picture of Cantiga 187 are the Muslim forces of Granada clearing shown wearing mail armor, similar to the Christian armor. Since, based on the Latin letters used for the text of the picture, this probably from a Christian source, and might just be depicting the Muslim forces the way comparable Christian forces would look, and not necessarily how the Muslim forces actually looked.
Re: Illustrations from Alhambra, Spain, 14th century
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Common Soldier
Most of the pictures shown of Muslim forces show them wearing robes, with no mail arnor obviously present. For example, in picture Cantiga 181, the Muslims shown on tne left are all in flowing robes, and there is no evidende of any mail armor being worn by them. The Christian forces on tne right are clearly shown wearint mail armor up to their chins.
Only in the picture of Cantiga 187 are the Muslim forces of Granada clearing shown wearing mail armor, similar to the Christian armor. Since, based on the Latin letters used for the text of the picture, this probably from a Christian source, and might just be depicting the Muslim forces the way comparable Christian forces would look, and not necessarily how the Muslim forces actually looked.
In Cantiga 181 The Moroccan army of king Umar al-Murtada routs a rival army of Moroccans under Abū Yūsuf, emir of Benimerines, at Marrakech. Only some banners are Christian. Both sides vanguards wear mail armour up to their chins.
In Cantiga 28 an Arab army is portrayed as Andalusians.
In Cantiga 35 are a shiploads of armoured Muslim pirates.
In Cantiga 63 some Muslims are dressed the same as the Christians, including a great helm
Cantiaga 99 has many armoured Moors
In Cantiga 165 an army (Mamluk?) is portrayed as Andalusians. It includes armoured horses.
Ian Heath and others think that the Muslims are portrayed accurately, see Granadine Heavy Cavalry in Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300 by Ian Heath, based on the Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X
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For an earlier period Ian Heath based his Andalusian Heavy Cavalrymen, 11th-12th Centuries on:
Goliath in Commentary on the Apocalypse by Beatus of Liébana, Silos ms. 1090-1109AD and
a capital at Estella in Navarre with Farragut & Roland, last third of the 12th century
I have also seen the Silos Beatus picture used as a source for a christian knight.
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attach...5&d=1383989099
MIRROR SITES
Druzhina345
Illustrations of Spanish & North African Costume & Soldiers
Re: Illustrations from Alhambra, Spain, 14th century
Are we certain the armoured soldiers are Musilm? We know Christian forces would sometime fight with Muslim ones, and in antiga 181, we know that their were Christian forces on the right with the Muslum one. The mailed Muslim soldiers look identical to the Christian ones, there doesn't seem any differences,. It is interesting to note that many of the Muslim soldiers are shown without any apparent arnmor, whicle the Christian forces always seem to be wearing armor.
I know tne Muslim forces shown i the siege of Constantinople are shown wearing armor, but that could be the artist just showing the Muslim soldiers what he assumed they would look like based on what a comparable Christian soldier would be, and so might not be an accurate rendering of what the Muslim soldier actually looked like?
Re: Illustrations from Alhambra, Spain, 14th century
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Common Soldier
I know tne Muslim forces shown i the siege of Constantinople are shown wearing armor, but that could be the artist just showing the Muslim soldiers what he assumed they would look like based on what a comparable Christian soldier would be, and so might not be an accurate rendering of what the Muslim soldier actually looked like?
I don't know about Al Andalus, but if you're talking about further east, armored Muslims would probably be difficult to identify as such in illustrations.
For example, the core of this kazaghand is mail:
That's a Fifteenth Century example, but they were worn centuries earlier according to textual evidence back at least as far as the Fatimid period. Usama ibn Munqidh described his kazaghand as containing two layers of mail.
Fatimid sources refer to soldiers being issued a quilted jubbah as armor with or without a layer of mail. A jubbah means this today (so presumably they were of a similar pattern):
The best quality were said to be faced with a layer of silk.
Re: Illustrations from Alhambra, Spain, 14th century
Toured Alhambra last year when on holiday, excellent day out and highly recommended if your ever in S Spain.
Re: Illustrations from Alhambra, Spain, 14th century
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Common Soldier
Are we certain the armoured soldiers are Musilm? We know Christian forces would sometime fight with Muslim ones, and in antiga 181, we know that their were Christian forces on the right with the Muslum one. The mailed Muslim soldiers look identical to the Christian ones, there doesn't seem any differences,. It is interesting to note that many of the Muslim soldiers are shown without any apparent arnmor, whicle the Christian forces always seem to be wearing armor.
I know tne Muslim forces shown i the siege of Constantinople are shown wearing armor, but that could be the artist just showing the Muslim soldiers what he assumed they would look like based on what a comparable Christian soldier would be, and so might not be an accurate rendering of what the Muslim soldier actually looked like?
There is a particular decorated great-helm that the Muslims seem to prefer.
There are plenty of unarmoured Christian spearmen in other Cantiga illustrations if you care to look. The list I provided was for armoured Muslims.
Druzhina345
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers