I google it and found nothing.
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I google it and found nothing.
I'll second this. Given that both modder and developers will have been drawing from the same source materials (history and myth,) a far more likely scenario is that it comes from that source, or has been created independently inspired by the same source.
Also an accusation of plagiarism is a very serious matter, which can have negative effects on a person or company even if it's baseless or proven false. So the burden of proof is well and truly on the accuser to provide evidence to support their case, not tell people to "google it" (especially when googling seems to lead to nothing.)
All the Best,
Welsh Dragon.
Thanks, Welsh. A kind person told me that I was mistaken, Mr Katsikes is an illustrator rather than a modder. Even so, I think the point remains.
Ah okay. Well as you said, it's the same principle. Whether a writer, artist, modder etc, none of us live in a vacuum. We all draw upon other sources to create our own creations.
Maybe CA's artwork/models do look a little like Mr Katsikes work (it's hard to say without images to compare.) But all that means for sure is two different artists have come up with similar ideas of what armour would look like in this ancient/mythological period. It's a huge leap to go from that to it being a "DIRECT COPY," which is what is being accused here.
Anyway, we're getting a bit off topic here so I'll just wish you all a good evening. I have motor racing to watch. :)
All the Best,
Welsh Dragon.
Because Anthonias cannot be bothered with low tasks...he already posted the pictures in another thread:
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15825988
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
EDIT: I was able to get more pictures https://www.facebook.com/HellenicArmors/ What I think Anthonius means is that those exact armors are copyrighted by the creator. Which of course makes sense. But they can hardly copyright the original sources... and if CA is using them as base, nobody can prevent that.
Nice irony...But the use of a copyrighted material for finansial purposes WITHOUT the creator's permision YOU must know has LEGAL concequenses. For EXAMPLE TGC mod that HAS NO FINANSIAL purposes because as a mod will be free to use ALREADY has writen permisions from authors and artists that create the books we all read. Also it has Mr Katsikes WRITEN PERMISION to use his "byzantine" armors for its purposes ONLY. Now CA/SEGA is a company that would not like to get in LEGAL warafre for copywrites so a deal with the original creator is a MUST YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.
Considering the image linked hasn't been used in any of CAs promotional material (so far at least, maybe they're hiding the zinger for last!), I imagine their position is pretty watertight.
Alright, Gentlemen, let me remind you the following principle: Any copyright issue between any company (CA included) and any person (Mr. Katsikes included) is none of TWC business outside the site and above all absolutly not related to the topic of this thread. Thank you for your understanding.
And we got yet again new blogpost about Troy:
https://www.totalwar.com/blog/barter...he-bronze-age/
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Thanks Daruwind! I enjoyed reading about how they were inspired by historical epics. I like the sound of the increased differentiation between different types of infantry, the greater emphasis on terrain (such as mud and tall grass) and the increased use of chokepoints and flanking routes.
In fact Ella McConnell totaly failing to see what Bronze Age was and most of all its ethics and morality as Illiad present them.
We read in Isiodos Erga and hemerae about the Hellenic Branches.
"Dardanos that ruled over Thessaly took his people and passed the lands of Thracians and finally reached the land of Hellion and with the help of Hercules defeated the locals and established a new state" . Conclusion 1: Troyans were former Thessalians. That is why Hellenic Gods were devided in suporting them or the rest of the Greeks.
Morality: The Epos of Illiad is full of moral and ethical principals that were the foundation of the Hellenic Civilisation.
Every act of EACH homeric hero represents such an ethical value , positive or negative.
The only thing that points corectly is that , that expedition was a primary cause of the bronze age collapse.
Remember that Minoans and later Mecyneans had a vast trade from northern africa to Danes! The active population of the Mecenean/Minoan states had to step by step (10 years excluding winders) fight to regain islands that were allies of Troy BEFORE the actuall siege of Troy that lasted 53 days. In that time religion changed, new aristocracy tried to fill the gap of that that was in the campaign and all ships were in the campaign and not trading!
After all TRADE was the cause of that war TROY shows. The chock point that instead of allowing grain and gold to reach the Greek mainland was kept in Troy. But Myceneans established Troy TO ENSURE the safety of trade not to cut it off!
The PRINCIPALS that emerged of Illiad marked the Hellenic civilisation untill today.
Principals that Solon explained to Kroisos centuries after that war and were alien to anatolian way of thinking. As Pedro Ollala (Spanish Proffesor of Hellenic Mythology and History) today explains , those principals remain revolutionary but still alien to the "barbaric" western civilisation.
To understand Illiad try to see each Hero as a spesific part of the Hellenic prospective about ethics.
Respect to the Gods
No man (even King) is NOT above Gods
Respect to the dead even the enemies and as ultimate respect the right to burial ceremony of the dead.
Nemmesis (God's punishment) comes even to semi Gods or Heros when the brake the divine ethics.
The ultimate sucrifice is when you defend your homeland even when that fight has no chanches of success (Hector knew that his homeland was doomed but his duty was to defend it. That example we see centuries later in Thermopylae and in 1453 in Constantinople).
No riches can be equal to a man's soul as value!
Respect to the ones that seeks refuge or seeks audience (iketes).
The game must give the player the right to chose what ethics will follow , each time with the right concequenses .
Remember that Illiad is actually an anti-war epos! It shows the suferings of men and heros , the cruelty of war and finally shows that in the war even the victor is loser!
Nice-looking pictures, they remind me of Jack's regular updates about military equipment in Rome II. In what concerns the text, the unrepentant pedantic inside me would like to make just a couple of observations. Firstly, the use of the term "crude" is not very appropriate. It's a value of judgement, which gives an unjustly negative view of the otherwise impressive Mycenaean art. I understand what they mean and I'm sure that their aim was not to denigrate the Bronze Age civilisation, but the word just brought some weird connotations. Secondly, I believe Creative Assembly has misunderstood the early classical period: Black-figure pottery had already begun to fade out during late 6th century, while Homer, despite not being a contemporary witness to the events he narrated, as some Iliad enthusiasts falsely believe, did certainly not live in the Classical Period. The epics were probably composed sometime in the 9th or 8th century B.C., which places approximately in the time-frame of the Geometric or Archaic periods.
Thirdly, I really doubt that Knossos, Pylos or any other settlement in Greece could deploy several hundreds of chariots. They lacked both the necessary resources and a suitably flat field to deploy such a huge force. Even the great Oriental Empires of the Achaemenids and Seleucids were hardly able or willing to master such a huge chariot force. The error is probably the result of a typo. End of rant. :P
Minoans and Myceneans relied heavily on infantry formations. Chariots were few , espesialy compared to those Assyrians and Egyptians (egyptians deployed 10000 chariots in the battle of Megido) because of the mountain terain of Balkans.
But 40 years ago a stone road discovered in Pelloponisos. What made that stone road UNIQUE was the fact that the stones had grooves EXACTLY in the distance chariot weels had one from eachother! Myceneans could use their chariors even after a heavy rain because of those stone roads. Frescos in Pylos show coastal patrol infantry units. Myceneans developed strong navy to counter the Cycladic and Minoan navies that were already superpowers!
In Iliad chariots play a small role even for the Troyan side. Troyans as Greeks also rely on infantry and fight outside Troy's walls but they are forthunate enough to recieve reinforcements from their allies in cavalry and archers.
The part of the "stealing horses" mat refer to a military night operation of the Greeks to neutralise enemy cavalry. Every part of Illiad can be translated in military actions.
EDIT: Chariots may were less that those anatolian people used but Myceneans were very well organised. Tablets found with the full inventory of chariot parts that kept separated and assemplied when was nessesary.
Also the same invendory has detailed numbers of all kind of armor pieces and weapons.
Hector's son name was Astyanaktas. In Greek that means "king of the city" = asty/city , anax/king.
Mr Katsikes is a smither that creates armors from all eras of the Hellenic history , from Bronze Age to Middle Ages Roman one (Byzantine).
Dumbttarton Oaks Museum financed him to create 10th century Byzantine Armors.
I really like a lot of what CA said and plans about their Bronze Age Troy game. The pictures look marvelous. They seem to be willing to implement also a bit older equipment from Late Helladic II to IIIa (1450 to 1300 BC) and not only "Warrior Vase" stuff. That's nice.
Some statements are a bit strange and one could nitpick. For example I never heard of bronze projectiles for slings, that would have been quite expensive stuff for low level weapons, especially as stone and lead would do the job as good or better. In the period the composite bow was also used, at least by charioteers, and was quite a sophisticated weapon. Considering the Iliad, there are a lot of reports and hints about how important archery was on the battlefield. Stating that archery was primitive is a bit overdone.
To the number of chariots, they were partly listed in the military equipment lists of the Mycenean palaces, and were quite a lot. Presumably the eastern empires used chariots to a greater extent, the terrain in the Middle East was much better suited for them. At Megiddo (c. 1480 to 1450 BC, battle date not exactly known) the number of the chariots used by the Egyptians are estimated to be up to 1.000 (not 10.000), as they seemed to be as strong as the enemy, from which allegedly 924 chariots were captured. The extreme intensity of this battle may be seen (or not?) in the number of deaths, allegedly about 100, and the 340 captives made by the victorious Egyptians, out of a number of together 20.000 combatants both sides combined ...
At the battlefield of Tollense, north-east Europe, about 1250 BC, skeletal bones where found which clearly show deformations usually originating from riding horses intensively. The statement that there was no cavalry in the timeframe therefore seems outdated. Maybe the backward Greek and eastern empires did not use them. :)
Anthonius II is wrong. This armour is based on Peter Connolly (1935-2012) from 1970s (Agamemnon's armour) which is based on historical sources:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7d/d5...d354020fca.jpg
https://content.totalwar.com/total-w...-TW-Armour.jpg
Hello!
Maybe i am a bit late, but i wanted to point out that the "poet" who "compiled" the Odyssey lived more or less 150 years after the War of Troy.
This is my source, its not advertising, i just couldnt find a different link: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ithaca-Home.../dp/B00VRQRSME
If this is true its fair to assume that who compiled the Iliad (a different and earlier Homer, if you get my point) lived quite close to the events narrated.
Its also worth to notice that Homer was extremely accurate in his descriptions when he had good sources, to the point of listing the exact number of pigs and cattle stored in each village on Ithaki. And the numbers do match the size of the fields even today.
On the other hand he was making up everything when he didnt have any source. The odd journey of Odysseus is all made up. What Homer didnt know is that after the fall of Troy Odysseus and his men was sent to conquer another city: Alakomenai. And this is why he was missing for years.
But when it comes to describing soldiers and battles and maybe even numbers he shouldnt be understimated as a reliable source.
Sorry for my terrible English.
Never occur to you to search on wikipedia. ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer%27s_Ithaca
It is a bit bold to tell the living dates of Homer as "fact". There is a whole lot of discussion about it, not really my field of interest, as I like the time till the middle Bronze Age and then from the classical period of Greece forward, and presumably neither Homer's life nor the Trojan War did take place in these periods. ;)
Anyway, you could read as starter here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Question and then go deeper. One hint, by far the most scholars come to a much later living date then stated by your source.