Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
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Originally Posted by
basics
The problem some affiliations have is that they cannot seem to get that Jesus Christ died once for the sin of His people and is now risen and sitting in Eternal Glory only awaiting His time to return and so with transubstantiation, idols and icons they keep crucifying Him again and again.
Well there is an abundance of iconology mostly solely on the moment when he got crucified, as if that is all there is, so well, you just raised an interesting point.
Things to deviate from this pattern would be Cathedral stained glasses telling Christ's life story (we saw what happened with an iconic one), prayer, pilgrimages and don't see much else.
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
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Originally Posted by
fkizz
Well there is an abundance of iconology mostly solely on the moment when he got crucified, as if that is all there is, so well, you just raised an interesting point.
Things to deviate from this pattern would be Cathedral stained glasses telling Christ's life story (we saw what happened with an iconic one), prayer, pilgrimages and don't see much else.
fkizz,
The thing is that in being born again in the heart by the Spirit of God one doesn't need images to prove that you are His and He is yours simply because of these life changing moments. When God gave the Second Commandment He knew exactly what men were like and what they would do and so any graven images whether real or in the head were out. We Christians retain the cross and it only as a reminder of on what and where Jesus Christ shed His blood for me that I never deserved yet I don't fall down to give worship to it, why? Because it is a sign of my shame, my sin, for which He had to die and die in my place. I'll know soon enough what the Lord Jesus Christ looks like as will everyone else so until then my strength is His Gospel.
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
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Originally Posted by
basics
In today's world does it matter that they crucified an innocent man way back then? I mean we celebrate things like Guy Fawlkes because he set out to blow up Parliament and he was guilty as we know but why Jesus who as Pilate said was innocent yet the Jews demanded His death, why? What is even more baffling is that the Roman soldiers took a delight in adding to His misery on that eventful day, but why? In a few days many if not most of us will be stuffed to the hilt with hot cross buns and many varieties of chocolate eggs but yet how many actually understand and believe why we do it? So, why do we?
Can you imagine a Jesus not crucified or executed publicly in one of the brutalist ways possible?
Let's say he's in modern US. He'd be charged with fraud. His friends would be found with drugs. His reputation would be ruined by countless TV interviews trying to question his sanity and his followers would tear and quit, and there would be a Wikipedia page for him Jesus the scammer. Not a good beginning for a new religion. Oh and he'd be homeless smoking mushroom on streets.
Or in ancient Germania? He'd be granted an opportunity to prove his God by single combat, and he'd lose and die and leave nothing but a good laugh. Not one person would remember him.
So, actually Romans did him a great favor. Maybe he even asked for it. It's the most logical choice that's available to a powerless and incapable person who seeks to challenge the religious authority.
Therefore we can conclude it's a staged suicide. And what's suicide if not the greatest sacrifice a Christian could possibly do, which could potentially cost him his position in heaven?
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
Well given its difficult to know even if he existed . But allowing that to the Romans he was just one more Jewish rebel with a following that making running the place annoying . Crucifixion seems sorta just you know typical. I assume a leader of the Sicarii would have suffered the same fate out of hand.
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
And that's why he must die in the most gruesome way possible. Else how would people remember his sacrifice?
Or imagine he lived to 100 but unable to accomplish anything since he lacked the military and leadership skills of Muhammad, and died :wub: his bed while surrounded by crying skinny peasants who had donated tenth of their black breads to him and lived on the edge of starvation all their life, never to see any hope.
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
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Originally Posted by
AqD
And that's why he must die in the most gruesome way possible. Else how would people remember his sacrifice?
Or imagine he lived to 100 but unable to accomplish anything since he lacked the military and leadership skills of Muhammad, and died :wub: his bed while surrounded by crying skinny peasants who had donated tenth of their black breads to him and lived on the edge of starvation all their life, never to see any hope.
no proof that Jesus, if he existed, died "in the most gruesome way possible". He possibly died in a very similar way to the hundreds of others crucified in Palestine.
Beyond this, could you explain or restate in other words what you want to say? I'm not sure what your point is.
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
I've been reading a book about this. Quite interesting. Assuming Jesus was a historical figure, he was a tradesman from Galilea. He was no scholar and his teachings did not follow or insist on the importance of Jewish law. Furthermore he preached the imminent arrival of God's kingdom on earth (something that seems to have completely disappeared from modern Christianity). As such he attracted a crowd that potentially posed a threat to both the Jewish establishment and the Roman governor. Even if he did not preach violence (as other self proclaimed messiah did), it is not surprising there were many waiting for an opportunity to be rid of him. The story of the hateful jews baying for his blood prevailing on a reluctant Pontius Pilate to condemn Jesus is almost certainly the result of the evangelists trying to distance themselves from the ever rebellious Jews while at the same time trying to not antagonize their Roman masters.
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
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Originally Posted by
mishkin
no proof that Jesus, if he existed, died "in the most gruesome way possible". He possibly died in a very similar way to the hundreds of others crucified in Palestine.
Beyond this, could you explain or restate in other words what you want to say? I'm not sure what your point is.
hundreds, better than millions.
He needed to do something worthy to be remembered of. He had none of that. Sure he helped some fisherman and some blind, but the audience was like 1 and it's quite questionable, as he didn't open a free fish shop or hospital for the poor.
Knowing he won't be able to achieve anything at all, turning himself into a martyr was the best option to him.
PS: crucifixion is a lot more painful than beheading or drowning.
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
Well if that was his goal, it didn't work. The crucifixion took place in the run-up to Jewish Easter. People had other things to do. Even the evangelists are clear about the fact that basically nobody showed up for it, not even his disciples.
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
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Originally Posted by
AqD
hundreds, better than millions.
He needed to do something worthy to be remembered of. He had none of that. Sure he helped some fisherman and some blind, but the audience was like 1 and it's quite questionable, as he didn't open a free fish shop or hospital for the poor.
Knowing he won't be able to achieve anything at all, turning himself into a martyr was the best option to him.
PS: crucifixion is a lot more painful than beheading or drowning.
I think you still have real problem with ascribing way to much agency to Jesus in the outcome.
Let's set aside the problem of if he existed and allow that some person of his description with a following was rambling around Judea with a messianic message at the time (like a lot of others). But seeing has we have no ideal what he though an d believed only what people wrote about and that in turn was edited multiple times to produce the basic story we get as canonical at about AD 150-200 AD (and in small and large ways after as well)... It difficult to say what his intent was or his message.
Also it difficult to say he could pick his execution method like working backward through some choose your own adventure book. Realistically it seems most likely his assertion if he made it to be the actual son of god would simply see the Roman's sign off on the Jewish authorities stoning him to death. If the Roman's deemed him a threat to stability and taxes being payed maybe they would have crucified him but it also strikes me given the lack of wider Roman record of his he was just seen as one local rabble rouser and would likely have got no special treatment good or ill on his way to that fate.
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AqD
Can you imagine a Jesus not crucified or executed publicly in one of the brutalist ways possible?
Let's say he's in modern US. He'd be charged with fraud. His friends would be found with drugs. His reputation would be ruined by countless TV interviews trying to question his sanity and his followers would tear and quit, and there would be a Wikipedia page for him Jesus the scammer. Not a good beginning for a new religion. Oh and he'd be homeless smoking mushroom on streets.
Or in ancient Germania? He'd be granted an opportunity to prove his God by single combat, and he'd lose and die and leave nothing but a good laugh. Not one person would remember him.
So, actually Romans did him a great favor. Maybe he even asked for it. It's the most logical choice that's available to a powerless and incapable person who seeks to challenge the religious authority.
Therefore we can conclude it's a staged suicide. And what's suicide if not the greatest sacrifice a Christian could possibly do, which could potentially cost him his position in heaven?
You're conflating suicide with martyrdom. Jesus absolutely did not commit or even invite suicide.
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
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Originally Posted by
basics
why Jesus who as Pilate said was innocent yet the Jews demanded His death, why?
basics, from a historical point of view, let's say that Mark and Matthew's account - as far as this issue is concerned - can be considered the first great anti-Semitic event in history, the most sinister of all, if we consider the consequences that resulted from all these events. Furthermore,
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… Another element of the New Testament story still unsupported by historical evidence is Pilate’s offer to commute the death sentence of a criminal by popular vote—which according to the Gospel writers was an annual Passover tradition. In the Gospels, the crowd chose the criminal Barabbas over Jesus. “Scholars have looked for evidence," Patterson says, and so far "have never found anything in reference to the so-called custom of releasing a prisoner on Passover.
Why Did Pontius Pilate Have Jesus Executed? | HISTORY
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That said, if you ask me what the difference is between the Old Testament and the New Testament, the difference is colossal. The Old Testament is a story of myths, violence and fear, the story of an avenging God; the New Testament speaks of a God who is the exact opposite.
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
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That said, if you ask me what the difference is between the Old Testament and the New Testament, the difference is colossal. The Old Testament is a story of myths, violence and fear, the story of an avenging God; the New Testament speaks of a God who is the exact opposite.
Thus you make yourself a follower of Marcion of Sinope. But if you believe what people say Jesus said (and made that cannon later in the selection of texts that is the NT) you cannot easily disentangle the OT from the NT.
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
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Originally Posted by
Ludicus
]That said, if you ask me what the difference is between the Old Testament and the New Testament, the difference is colossal. The Old Testament is a story of myths, violence and fear, the story of an avenging God; the New Testament speaks of a God who is the exact opposite.
Ehhh, that downplays the mythological roots of the New Testament. It draws from abstracted Greek philosophy (especially Middle Platonism), Late Second Temple prophetic apocalypticism, and Dionysian mystery cult. A lot of Jesus' life story in the Gospels seems to deliberately echo Dionysos' myths, in a specifically "humblebrag" kind of way: Oh, your god is an eastern conqueror, son of a princess? Well, ours is just a humble carpenter and teacher. Your god rides in triumph upon a leopard? Well, ours saunters in on a humble donkey. In every instance where Greek myth holds up Dionysos' lofty divinity, the Gospel myth depicts Jesus as down-to-earth. Both align in depicting their figure as the son of a god and a mortal woman, and thus has one foot in both material and immaterial reality; both depict wonderworking and miracles as a way to demonstrate their divinity; and both depict a dying-and-rising myth. The New Testament is rife with mythologization.
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
The Gospels respond separately to a variety of inputs. I'm sure some respond to Dionysian and other mystery cults, others to more direct criticism from other Jews and Greek coverts to Judaism and Jesus worship. John, for all its likely authenticity as the work of an actual companion of Jesus seems the most Greek.
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
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Originally Posted by
Cyclops
I think it highly plausible the Roman guards abused and assaulted Jesus, Roman justice for non citizens was IIRC pretty harsh.
This is a fairly credible point. It's much more "Historically Normal" the idea that Roman guards beat up and abuse some perceived political insurrectionist without Roman Citizenship rather than the opposite. (sometimes even for those who had citizenship it was fairly brutal)
Why would they be all kind, understanding and merciful to Jesus etc.? The burden of proof sits much more on the second assumption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AqD
Let's say he's in modern US. He'd be charged with fraud. His friends would be found with drugs. His reputation would be ruined by countless TV interviews trying to question his sanity and his followers would tear and quit, and there would be a Wikipedia page for him Jesus the scammer. Not a good beginning for a new religion. Oh and he'd be homeless smoking mushroom on streets.
You're more or less assuming him to have very low emotional intelligence, very low charisma and very low concept of how psychology of the masses and groups work.
Is it the best starting assumption point?
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
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Originally Posted by
Cyclops
John, for all its likely authenticity as the work of an actual companion of Jesus seems the most Greek.
That's very true. It contains a lot of mystic language that strongly recalls Platonist philosophy that would have been more familiar to educated Greeks. Each of the Gospels are likely directed at different audiences, and John has a very particular one.
Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?
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Originally Posted by
MaximiIian
t draws from abstracted Greek philosophy (especially Middle Platonism), Late Second Temple prophetic apocalypticism, and Dionysian mystery cult.. New Testament is rife with mythologization.
Certainly.And the Old Testament even more.Well, some say that history has a mythical dimension, and myth has a historical dimension. The god of the Old Book seems to me to be a lot harsher /more violent than the one in the New Testament. I don’t know if I have a soul, or if I have a soul that came from the god Dionysus, according to the Orphics' belief system. I donīt want to downplay the Orphic influence on Greek philosophy, but the Hellenistic mystery religion makes me sleep. When Gandhi started to read the Old Testament, it also sent him to sleep, but the New Testament and the Sermon on the Mount attracted him.The great Indian poet and writer Rabindranath Tagore wrote to Mahatma Gandhi, "every important act of his life Buddha preached limitless love for all creatures. Christ said, "Love thy enemies" and that teaching of his found its final expression in the words of forgiveness he uttered for those who killed him”.