Islam

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

My problem with Islam's image, as I stated in an earlier post, is that the conservative and moderate muslims leaders never publically condemn, especially in concert, the terroristic acts of the radical fundamentalists within their religion. Their silence speaks volumes, especially to the sea of young, uneducated Muslims through out the middle east! Their lack of condemnation can only be construed as approval.

"Never"? I don't know how much attention you have been paying, but I'd say condemnations like this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and these dozens of statements and this one and this whole page of links to such statements and this and this and this collection of condemnations and this one and then this one count for something. Didn't you notice those? Why not?

How about this statement by Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi or this one by Abdul Hakim Murad of Cambridge University? Not enough for you? Then how about this fatwa against targeting civilians by Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti, or this condemnation of suicide bombings by the Grand Sheikh of the al-Azhar mosque, Sheikh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, or this extensive list of fatwas by various Muslim scholars against terrorists?

Want more? Okay - I can keep this up for quite a while. Here's a Pakistani Muslim scholar. Here's another British one. Another Pakistani scholar. And another. How many more would you like? Here's a fatwa against Bin Laden by Spanish Muslim scholars.

I'm getting tired of posting links now, but I could have kept that up for quite a while. And I've seen many, many, many more such public expressions of total rejection of violence by Muslim leaders. You haven't? Have you been living under a rock?

Most polls taken even amongst the very moderate and educated Muslims of the US suggest that the vast majority of them feel terrorism is and can be justified in most circumstances! "Protecting" Islam apparently trumps their own scriptures.

A "vast majority"? Really? "In most circumstances"? You sure about that? Last month the Pew Research Center undertook a major poll of American Muslims. What did it find?

"[N]early 80 percent of U.S. Muslims say suicide bombings of civilians to defend Islam cannot be justified, 13 percent say they can be, at least rarely. That sentiment is strongest among those younger than 30. Two percent of them say it can often be justified, 13 percent say sometimes and 11 percent say rarely. .... Andrew Kohut, Pew director, called support for the attacks "one of the few trouble spots" in the survey. The question did not specify where a suicide attack might occur, who might carry it out or what was meant by using a bombing to "defend Islam.

Masmoudi said most supporters of the attacks likely assumed the context was a fight against occupation — a term Muslims often use to describe the conflict with Israel."
("Poll: One in four younger U.S. Muslims support suicide bombings at least rarely", International Herald Tribune, May 22, 2007)

So much for "a vast majority" or "in most circumstances".

Both your statement about the lack of condemnations of terrorism by Muslim groups and scholars and your idea of what the average US Muslim thinks have proven wildly wrong. If I were you I'd now be asking myself very seriously "How and why did I end up getting such a totally warped idea of things?"

I'd be interested in your answer to that question. And ask yourself that question honestly - how on earth could you have ended up with such a false impression?

If you are honest, you might find the answers surprising (if uncomfortable). It's interesting and a bit frightening how prejudice perpetuates itself and how easily it slips into bigotry. That's one explanation as to how certain nice, educated, intelligent young men can end up crashing planes into buildings.

Or how do you think their bigotry began?

The quotes above that you kindly provided, are enough to condemn any Muslim terrorist to the degree that there should be no possible sanctuary for them anywhere, but still, they move with seeming impunity through a host of Islamic countries.

"People who shoot abortion doctors and those who support them are clearly in violation of Christian principles. Yet they need to be sought out by US law enforcement authorities. There should be no sanctuary for them anywhere in the US, so why don't the people of the United States hand over these murderers? Clearly the people of the US condone such murders!"

Getting the picture?

Where is the outrage on the Islamic street at these highjackers of their religion? Why do they go uncondemned publically and yet are treated as heros privately?

See above for the widespread condemnation. It's interesting that you've - somehow - totally missed it. Quite remarkable, in fact. Scary, actually.

The Palastinians have openly danced in the street at successful acts of terrorism.

I've seen footage of Ulster Catholics laughing and singing songs in pubs in Belfast and Derry over acts of terrorism. So I guess my "attitude to Christianity" overall must now be "negative", right?

What is the world to think TG?

What's it supposed to "think"? Some actual thinking on this issue would be a refreshing change. Perhaps "the world" (or certain groups of people within it) should "think" by first informing itself, looking past the blinkers of prejudice, hatred and ignorance and being a bit less selective about relevant information. That would be a nice start. The fact that your assessment has proven so utterly wildly wrong, for example, should say something quite significant to you.

Ask yourself why your ideas were so completely wrong. Be honest and then see what answers you come up with.

[MasterAdnin]

There are hundreds of sites out there which are full of details of mohammad's barbarities, and hundreds of books. You however, Adnan, will never gain anything from them, because like 99% of muslims you equate any anti-Islamic site with being wrong. Anti has never denoted incorrectness. The logic you employ is as follows: the Koran is the perfect revelation of God therefore any suggestion that it is imperfect is wrong. This, my friend, makes you blinded, any any intelligent discussion on the matter useless.

So you are saying that what I have studied in and out of Sunday school is incorrect? I have read so many books, websites, encyclopedias, etc about Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and Islam. I have spent much of my life reading about Islam so that I could talk to people like you who have misconceptions about Islam.

LOL nor do you Adnan, as you are still here on earth. Martyrs have been around for centuries if not thousands of years before mohammad.

Islam does not say you must be a martyr, and you do not need to be a martyr to know about martyrdom.

Not to millions of muslims who see martyrdom as becoming a homicide-bomber. Apparently millions of millions of muslims haven't read the Koran either. You spout your own brand of Islam, not that of many others. And no, I am not going to reread the Koran. Why would a dog return to his vomit? I read it with good intentions the first time, and was sickened by its contents, and totally unimpressed by its almost complete lack of true spirituality. To me it is a manual for cultists.

I do not "spout" my own brand of Islam. I am a minority true, I am a Shiite and there are thousands of other Shiites out there who think and feel the same way as I do, yet the media decides to ignore us and go to those damn Salafists who are creating all the problems only because they attract more viewers. It is despicable.

If you are not going to read the Qu'ran again then at least read the book of Imam Ali (pbuh) called Nahjul Balagha. It means the Peak of Eloquence.

The Nahj al-Balagha (Arabic: نهج البلاغة "Peak of Eloquence") is the most famous collection of speeches (sermons) and letters attributed to Ali ibn Abi Talib, accepted as the final Rightly Guided Caliph by Sunni Muslims and the first of the Imams by Shia Muslims. It was collected by ash-Sharif ar-Radi or known in Persian as Seyyed Razi in the 10th century.

Nahj means open way, road, course, method or manner. Balaghah means eloquence, art of good style and communication, rhetoric etc

The collection is regarded by Shi'ites as authentic, although it is not included in their Hadith books, which normally include the sayings and actions of the Shia Imams along with those of Muhammad.

A Shi'a website[6] writes:

No scholar of Sunni or Shi'a profession has questioned the genuineness and authenticity of Nahjul Balagha for more than two centuries. The first person to raise doubts about its attribution to Amir al-Mu'minin was Ibn Khallikan(sunni) (d. 681/1282)

Shaykh Muhammad 'Abduh, the former mufti of Egypt, edited and published the Peak of Eloquence (Arabic: Nahj al-Balagha) with a brief commentary and for the first time introduced this book to the Egyptians.

He said that he had no knowledge of "Peak of Eloquence" until he undertook its study far from home in a distant land. It is said that he was struck with wonder and felt as if he had discovered a precious treasure trove. Thereupon, he immediately decided to publish it and introduce it to the Egyptian public.

I wasn't generalising muslims. I was saying that if muhammad is so beloved, then so should Al-Zarqawi be, because they carried out similar acts with similar words.

No they didn't. Again you know nothing of which you speak. Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) never killed others based on their beliefs, never started aggressions upon another meaning only fought in self defense, and actually knew what he was doing.

That means little concerning the truth, correctness or morality of the Koran. Other Westerners join neo-Nazi groups, NAMBLA, or become pedophiles or serial killers.

Believe what you wish.

Rubbish. Stop listening to imams and actually read the words of the book and then open your eyes and take a look at the world and which cultures in the world treat women better than others. You will say "those people don't follow Islam." Tell that to the millions who beat and abuse their women, murder them, lock them in their houses all day. Like socialism, to some Islam may be good in theory (don't ask me how) - but in actuality people don't live it, and people are miserable under the ideology, especially women.

Please, do not question my knowledge of Islam. I have read the Qu'ran in Arabic, and English and am reading it again in English from another translator. I have also read many books concerning the history of Islam, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the Imams (pbut). How much have you read about Islam?

I do not know if you have ever read this before, but the Prophet (pbuh) once said "Treat your wives as your equals for they are you partners in life." So how exactly does this justify what the "Muslim wife-beaters" are doing?:hmmm:

Salaam bros,
Adnan

[hellheaven1987]

This thread is retarded. Many people who voted negative view do not even have religion at all, they just basically do not like religion.

And Islam does not force people to convert, unless not in most of time. For example, during 7th Century towards 10th Century, Christans in Middle East could choose not to be Muslim, all they needed to do was to pay a small amount of religion tax, and no one would even care what you were.

[killerchinchilla]

This thread is retarded. Many people who voted negative view do not even have religion at all, they just basically do not like religion.

Maybe you should start another poll on another religion, maybe Hinduism, or Buddhism (not actually a religion but who cares?), see what sort of reaction you get. The fact is Islam is a controversial religion and is getting a bad press at the moment (rightly or wrongly) and thats going to effect how people vote. Perhaps only those who are religious should vote then? Ah but then its a competing religion so can't have that. Ok then lets only let Muslims vote, after all they have no alteria motives do they?

[Rev. Jebediah Cletus]

I dont care about Ayrabs but its Muslims I got beef with.
What do you think is the propositiones that caused them to believe in this proposteres ideaology? Two words: Cow Ran - putem together: Coran

Ever read the Coran? It's blasphemous most of it. Them muslims think the bible is "interestin" and 'inspired' but a corrupted text. Muslims say Jesus dinnot die. Thats a lie! Intended to make it seem like our Saviour never reserected. Another lie! Also they dont have Sunday as a day of wurship, but Friday! What part of the words "and God rested on the 7th day" dont they understand?

On the good side thou I think its good that both of our religiuns believe that you go to Hell. I'll grant them that much for sure! I also think they share some good truths from Deuteronomy when it comes to what animals are okay to eat and what not. Also were kinda related. Check this out:

[jankren]

This thread is retarded. Many people who voted negative view do not even have religion at all, they just basically do not like religion.

And Islam does not force people to convert, unless not in most of time. For example, during 7th Century towards 10th Century, Christans in Middle East could choose not to be Muslim, all they needed to do was to pay a small amount of religion tax, and no one would even care what you were.

All the negative opinions about Islam are highly understandable. Thanks to Osama bin Laden and his fellow terrorists and modern global-reaching media for that. If this poll was created at the latest in 2000 maybe the result would be way different.

As for the forced conversion of Islam, it is largely a myth because Islam actually spreaded relatively slower than Christianity. Up until the 1300's Christians, Jews and Pagans still made up about half of the Middle East's population even though the entire region was completely under Muslim Empires since the 7th century (I read about this in Bernard Lewis's book). Even until today there are still small religious minorities in there who have been left untouched for centuries while in Europe for example there are no longer people who have been worshipping Odin or Zeus for generations for such pagan religions had been completely wiped out a long time ago.

Instead of saying Islam was spread by the sword in the Middle East I think it would be more correct to say that Islam was introduced by the sword through the expansion of Muslim Arab kingdoms in the Middle East just like Christianity was introduced by the rifle in parts of Africa and in the Far Eastern Asia through the expansion of Colonial Empires.

Peace,

[The Super Pope]

I don't understand the logic behind martyrdoma nd places in heaven.
If I remember correctly Islam expressly forbids violence, and early Muslim rulers used slave armies to get around this.
I respect what Islam was but suicide bombers, scum like Omar Bakri and Abu Hamza, and the Finsbury Park mob constantly burning British flags have eroded that in me

[sdjenkyn]

I dont care about Ayrabs but its Muslims I got beef with.
What do you think is the propositiones that caused them to believe in this proposteres ideaology? Two words: Cow Ran - putem together: Coran

Ever read the Coran? It's blasphemous most of it. Them muslims think the bible is "interestin" and 'inspired' but a corrupted text. Muslims say Jesus dinnot die. Thats a lie! Intended to make it seem like our Saviour never reserected. Another lie! Also they dont have Sunday as a day of wurship, but Friday! What part of the words "and God rested on the 7th day" dont they understand?

On the good side thou I think its good that both of our religiuns believe that you go to Hell. I'll grant them that much for sure! I also think they share some good truths from Deuteronomy when it comes to what animals are okay to eat and what not. Also were kinda related. Check this out:

Obviously you don't understand the sabath either since it was originally Saturday. Christians and Muslims have both hijacked Judaism and every other pagan religion that could be spun and converted.

[basics]

AbrahamShalom,

The name doesn't look Islamic, rather Jewish, so if I am wrong please accept my apologies for it matters not to me at least. The debate is about Islam, not some TV or film stars, and without being contraversial I pointed out the differences between Islam and Christianity. These are fundamental to what we, whether Jewish, Muslim or Christian call our God since the three claim Scriptural testimony for that God.

If you are Jewish then you must know, believing or not, that our New Testament was built on the testimony of Jews about a Jew who claimed to be the Son of God, indeed was/is God. If on the other hand you are Islamic then you must know that to us Jesus Christ is God whom you deny. I laid out the fault lines in that religion because there are many.

It matters not what any of us were born into as far as Christianity is concerned, Jew Muslim or baptised Christian, because none of these will gain acceptance with God. This is Old Testament teaching as portrayed by the Law of Moses. Not one living or dead man with the exception of Jesus Christ ever fulfilled the Law of Moses and it is on Him that our, Jewish, Muslim or so-called Christian's salvation stands.

But yes, man will follow what man will follow. He has been doing that since the beginning of time and not very successfully in the eyes of God. I think it safe to say that Jewish history confirms that, yet still, God keeps His promises to them. It is also safe to say that according to the Scriptures not many were ever saved primarily because of their disbelief and it's consequence, disobedience.

The same can be said of " Christianity " that today is more apostate than Christian and that like the Jews because of disbelief and disobedience. You see the former was a type and shadow of the latter and as in the former traditions divide Israel so too Christianity. Islam is no better because in her case she too is divided never mind Scripturally wrong as I have pointed out. Had the thread been about Judaism or Christianity they both would get similar trearment.

It is no more true that Muslims have rights that surpass the commandments of God especially as they claim to adhere to that God, than it is for Jews and any others including so-called Christians to claim God and not obey Him. It is true that for Christians the Law was fulfilled for them in Jesus Christ but not so for Jews and Muslims for they adhere to law and works for salvation. Yet Christians too must obey what God asks.

But if they cannot adhere to the Law then they are under condemnation for that is what the Law demands of all who cling to it. So in effect what you claim is not applicable to any who dwell in the Law, therefore it follows that they have no rights. Now this is Old Testament teaching and is brought alive by Paul in his writings to the Romans. All are under the curse of the Law that itself highlights the sin of man.

[kev-o]

It is quite clear you have no knowledge of Islam. The saying "Ignorance is bliss," could not be any truer, and is the case with you good sir. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) fought only against the Meccans and took only Mecca after the Meccans had persecuted him and his followers.

Now Islam tells us that we should fight for what we believe is right. Is that wrong? In the case of the Muslims it would be to fight those who have brought injustice upon them. Is that wrong? Hmmm...I do not think so.

Islam also tells that we should respect others views, especially those from, I believe the name is Ahlul Kitab, meaning those of the Book. This means all those who believe in one God, most notably Christians and Jews.

So let us see. If Islam tells us to fight for what is right, to not fight the Christians and Jews, to be respectful of other religions, not to forcibly convert others, condemns aggressions against others, what exactly is wrong with Islam? To make it more clear, what can you forcibly find bad about Islam?

Honestly, many people here just WANT to believe Islam is bad despite the fact that it is plain and simply, not evil what-so-ever. So many people here say they are tolerant of others, yet when it comes to Islam they come running with insults and negative misguided views.

Please, if you truly wish to discuss Islam, read a book or two on it then come talk to me. I too am still fairly ignorant of Islam, but I do know one or two things, and one thing I do know is that there is nothing bad in Islam.

Salaam bros,
Adnan

Here is a book YOU need to read: The Truth about Muhammad by Robert Spencer. Should be a real eye opener.

[Blau&Gruen]

So in effect what you claim is not applicable to any who dwell in the Law, therefore it follows that they have no rights.

You are as always very bene volent.
The Prussian king Frederic was benevolent, too, saying:
"Everyone shall be lucky according to his own façon".

How can you decide, "they" have no rights?
Of course they have rights.
One of these rights is their freedom to be lucky with their faith.

[Rush Limbaugh]

Negative. Please dont get me started. I just got back here and dont need to be sanctioned again on this

[Angmar_nite]

This thread is retarded. Many people who voted negative view do not even have religion at all, they just basically do not like religion.

And Islam does not force people to convert, unless not in most of time. For example, during 7th Century towards 10th Century, Christans in Middle East could choose not to be Muslim, all they needed to do was to pay a small amount of religion tax, and no one would even care what you were.

Tell that to the templars or the Hospitalliers that Saladin defeated. They had to chose between Islam and death. Most chose death.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Here is a book YOU need to read: The Truth about Muhammad by Robert Spencer. Should be a real eye opener.

Ah yes, why should we listen to what actual Muslims here on TWC say about their own religion? After all, what would believing Muslims know about what Muslims believe?

No, it would be far better to read a book by a guy who also wrote such unbiased gems of scholarship as The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades), The Myth of Islamic Tolerance: How Islamic Law Treats Non-Muslims, Islam Unveiled: Disturbing Questions About the World's Fastest Growing Faith, Religion of Peace?: Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't, Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West and of course Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics .

He doesn't sound like a biased author with a burning anti-Islamic agenda and a religious axe of his own to grind, now does he? A conservative Catholic with no training in Islamic Studies, director of the paranoid jihadwatch.org, who appears regularly on Fox News and has been condemned as an kneejerk Islamophobe by scholars of Islam, both Muslim and non-Muslim, sounds like exactly the kind of guy to go to for clear-eyed, unbiased analysis.

Next you'll be recommending articles on stormfront.org for unbiased analysis about Jews.

Tell that to the templars or the Hospitalliers that Saladin defeated. They had to chose between Islam and death. Most chose death.

Christianity is not meant to force people to convert either. Yet the Saxons in the Eighth Century and the Spanish Jews in the Fifteenth were forced to convert en masse. Do these examples mean, therefore, that Christianity does sanction forced conversion? :hmmm:

[Rush Limbaugh]

Ah yes, why should we listen to what actual Muslims here on TWC say about their own religion?

They are misguided just like Christians are. The only difference is Jesus taught peace and love only. What they have turned the religions into only partially represents what the founders intended. Who is to say OBL is not correct. From all I have read of the Koran he is. Thank goodness most Muslims cant believe their prophet was really so cruel and power hungry. They like most christians search for the good in their holy works for the most part. Only evil minds do evil deeds and they will use anything to accomplish their goals.

[kev-o]

Ah yes, why should we listen to what actual Muslims here on TWC say about their own religion? After all, what would believing Muslims know about what Muslims believe?

No, it would be far better to read a book by a guy who also wrote such unbiased gems of scholarship as The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades), The Myth of Islamic Tolerance: How Islamic Law Treats Non-Muslims, Islam Unveiled: Disturbing Questions About the World's Fastest Growing Faith, Religion of Peace?: Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't, Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West and of course Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics .

He doesn't sound like a biased author with a burning anti-Islamic agenda and a religious axe of his own to grind, now does he? A conservative Catholic with no training in Islamic Studies, director of the paranoid jihadwatch.org, who appears regularly on Fox News and has been condemned as an kneejerk Islamophobe by scholars of Islam, both Muslim and non-Muslim, sounds like exactly the kind of guy to go to for clear-eyed, unbiased analysis.

Next you'll be recommending articles on stormfront.org for unbiased analysis about Jews.



Christianity is not meant to force people to convert either. Yet the Saxons in the Eighth Century and the Spanish Jews in the Fifteenth were forced to convert en masse. Do these examples mean, therefore, that Christianity does sanction forced conversion? :hmmm:

You can spout all you want about how Islam is just the same as Christianity and Judaism. But the fact remains, anything that says of good things in the Koran (or the Bible) can be contradicted. So when ever I or others bring up such and such from the Koran, you can dispute, then I can dispute it, so one so forth. The Koran (and Bible) is a book that contradicts itself so many times. You call me an Islamophobe or uninformed, I call you disillusioned.

I can argue that Muhammad created this Religion just to further his agenda. So could be the same with Jesus or Moses.

[Rush Limbaugh]

So could be the same with Jesus or Moses.

How do you further your agenda by dying a horrible death and then not even have anything written about it for 100 years? Pretty poor planning on the part of Jesus and his followers dont you think? In fact you do such a bad job that unlike Mohamed people deny you ever even existed.,

[kev-o]

How do you further your agenda by dying a horrible death and then not even have anything written about it for 100 years? Pretty poor planning on the part of Jesus and his followers dont you think? In fact you do such a bad job that unlike Mohamed people deny you ever even existed.,

Some can argue that Jesus was a Jewish zealot and was trying to start a revolt by using religion. John the Baptist was seen the same way. I am not saying that Jesus was doing it for political reasons (the man was the son of God) I am just refering to some of the arguements I have heard about why Jesus did what he did.

[Bootsiuv]

I dont care about Ayrabs but its Muslims I got beef with.
What do you think is the propositiones that caused them to believe in this proposteres ideaology? Two words: Cow Ran - putem together: Coran

Ever read the Coran? It's blasphemous most of it. Them muslims think the bible is "interestin" and 'inspired' but a corrupted text. Muslims say Jesus dinnot die. Thats a lie! Intended to make it seem like our Saviour never reserected. Another lie! Also they dont have Sunday as a day of wurship, but Friday! What part of the words "and God rested on the 7th day" dont they understand?

On the good side thou I think its good that both of our religiuns believe that you go to Hell. I'll grant them that much for sure! I also think they share some good truths from Deuteronomy when it comes to what animals are okay to eat and what not. Also were kinda related. Check this out:

Everytime I read one of your posts I can't help but chuckle. Christian fanatics are just as bad as Muslim ones. The fact that you're so positive that you're right is the only prepostorous thing I've seen so far.

People who shove their religious views down everyone's throats and seem so sure about there ways make me sick. You'd think you have actually met God and spoken with Him by the way you speak.

P.S. It's Arabs, not Ayrabs. Religious intolerance and racism in one post. A twofer. Good for you, rev.

[Rush Limbaugh]

. I am not saying that Jesus was doing it for political reasons

I didnt think you were

the man was the son of God

If you believe what he preached are we not all?

I am just refering to some of the arguements I have heard about why Jesus did what he did.

Well they are pretty silly then. Again getting yourelf killed isnt a good way to further your agenda unless you really are the son of god and can come back as advertised.

Christian fanatics are just as bad as Muslim ones.

Not in recent history.