Ask a paleontologist!

[Bootsiuv]

I hope you guys didn't scare him away....I was really enjoying this thread. Beowulf, quite frankly, I don't care about your credentials (although if it's true, good for you), I was just enjoying having intelligent conversations with someone about this topic.

I was rather interested in hearing your thoughts about the T-Rex dilemma. What do you think about the subject?

What about the possibility that dinosaurs may have been warm-blooded?

It was nice having someone to talk to about these sorts of things, so come on back.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Well if he does hold a MSc then I am sure his thesis defence was a much more difficult experience than a few people on an internet forum asking for a little proof of his credentials.

Either way, he should come back and enjoy this discussion.

[mightyfenrir]

that used to be my dream job, being a paleontologist, but I teach middle school instead. I'm still pretty active in following up on my dinosaur news, but obviously I have a lot of other reading I have to do. I did get to read Bakker's Heresies last year though finally... I just never bought it until last year.

What about the possibility that dinosaurs may have been warm-blooded?

It was nice having someone to talk to about these sorts of things, so come on back.

You should read Dinosaur Heresies... Bakker's theories on warm blooded-ness are pretty well put together and thought provoking.

[issues]

I love all aspects of animal sciences and ever since I saw Jurassic Park there has been a place in my heart for dinosaurs (just don't believe everything you saw in that movie ). Although, I focus more on modern living animals then dead ones so I'll be doing the question asking not answering.


So my question is, years ago I saw some show about dinosaurs and I vaguely remember them gaging raptors as in velociraptor family (sorry don't know name) of being so smart that they might of eventually became the evolved version of us, had not they died out. What are your take on this? They did create a pretty disturbing looking picture of an evolved dinosaur which was strangely human-looking. I'll try and find it but this was on YEARS ago so I doubt if I can.

Also, I believe the dinosaurs came to extinction mainly from an asteroid or some sorts. Is this the majority consensus too? I know there is a giant crate in the Yucatan which is half inland and half in the ocean which is believed to be a candidate for it.

[mightyfenrir]

Though I did not open the questioning I'll take a shot at these myself.

So my question is, years ago I saw some show about dinosaurs and I vaguely remember them gaging raptors as in velociraptor family (sorry don't know name) of being so smart that they might of eventually became the evolved version of us, had not they died out. What are your take on this? They did create a pretty disturbing looking picture of an evolved dinosaur which was strangely human-looking. I'll try and find it but this was on YEARS ago so I doubt if I can.

You mean this guy I assume:


That was created by a paleontologist named Dale Russell in 1982. He noted that intelligent predators that were already bipedal, such as troodon(he studied troodon more than other dinosauria) could eventually evolve into human-like bipedal creatures. I assume he would include the dromaesauridae (deinonychus, velociraptor, utahraptor, etc.) as well because they were considered intelligent. I think giving it a human body is not inaccurate because the tail would diminish as the body became more upright and squared off. However, many of the intelligent animals were evolving more into birdlike forms so I would think there might be some feathers involved... I'm not entirely sure.

Also, I believe the dinosaurs came to extinction mainly from an asteroid or some sorts. Is this the majority consensus too? I know there is a giant crate in the Yucatan which is half inland and half in the ocean which is believed to be a candidate for it.

I don't know if there is a majority consensus anymore. I like Bakker's ideas and support those however. His ideas state that the intermingling of cultures over temporary land bridges that were thrust up between continents caused the spread of foreign diseases. Much like when Europeans brought smallpox to the Americas the dinosaurs spread diseases and ticks and mosquitoes sped up the process. He has a good point in his theories and I cannot possibly fully explain them all here.

[issues]

Though I did not open the questioning I'll take a shot at these myself.



You mean this guy I assume:


That was created by a paleontologist named Dale Russell in 1982. He noted that intelligent predators that were already bipedal, such as troodon(he studied troodon more than other dinosauria) could eventually evolve into human-like bipedal creatures. I assume he would include the dromaesauridae (deinonychus, velociraptor, utahraptor, etc.) as well because they were considered intelligent. I think giving it a human body is not inaccurate because the tail would diminish as the body became more upright and squared off. However, many of the intelligent animals were evolving more into birdlike forms so I would think there might be some feathers involved... I'm not entirely sure.

Haha, yes that is exactly the picture I saw on the show! Still creeps me out for some reason, I do find it kind of weird that it is humanoid but seeing as we tend to make things anthropomorphic I guess it isn't that weird after all. I just found it kind of plausible that family of dinosaurs could of been the rulers of the planet millions of years after if they weren't all killed off.

I don't know if there is a majority consensus anymore. I like Bakker's ideas and support those however. His ideas state that the intermingling of cultures over temporary land bridges that were thrust up between continents caused the spread of foreign diseases. Much like when Europeans brought smallpox to the Americas the dinosaurs spread diseases and ticks and mosquitoes sped up the process. He has a good point in his theories and I cannot possibly fully explain them all here.

It does make sense, although I don't really know of any 'modern' (as in recorded) examples of that outside of humans, offhand anyways. What about asteroids? Do you have any opinion on them? Could of been a combination of both, seeing as dinosaurs seem to have been dying at an incredible rate which could cause a lot of diseases too come afloat.

Anyways, I've always been fascinated by dinosaurs. I once saw a cheetah up close once and was amazed how big it was compared to what I always saw on the television. Dinosaurs can't even be compared too so they are almost fantastical to envision for me.

[caratacus]

That picture is just fantasy unless you subscribe to David Ike's theories and it very unlikely that any reptilian based creature could have evolved into anything similar to man. However it is also true that some of the smaller predator dinosaurs and perhaps some of the larger ones hunted in packs and to do this would require a greater mental capacity than we would have expected from simply a large reptile.

I think given the immense size of these creatures that a complete dependence on radiated heat to increase blood temperature would have been very impractical as they would have had great difficulty to regain heat, once that stored in their large bodies became dangerously depleted. The theory that dinosaurs had a limited capacity for producing some body heat is therefore a plausible one, although it would have not have been as well developed as warm blooded mammals, which is probably the reason they became extinct. Alternatively their body fat could have been so efficient that the prospect of reaching that critical temperature was unlikely, that is of course unless a sudden change in global temperatures occurred.

It is worth mentioning that there have been at least 3 mass extinctions in the Earth's history which involved creatures of all descriptions not just large reptiles, occurring at certain points in the time zones of rock strata.

It has also struck me as strange, is that many of these creatures in the last extinction event were so very large. So large in fact that if they existed today and lay down they probably would have not been able to get up again. I therefore wonder why no one has ever considered that the Earths gravitational field may have significantly altered since then. This would mean that the Earth is in fact spinning faster than it did then which is unlikely, unless it received a large displacement through an asteroid strike.

Finally is it not a such great shame, that man was not around during the time of the Dinosaurs. What great fun we could have had not to mention cave women looking like Raquel Welch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG78QvB93Uo&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5mH7j7WLYU

[Daovonnaex]

I guess Beowulf left forever!

Maybe I should've PMed him instead?

[Bootsiuv]

After being gone for two weeks, I see that Beowulf has indeed left the building. Oh well, at least others are willing to discuss something other than space around here (although Cosmology is still my favorite subject....I do love living sciences as well). Don't really have much to add at this point....so I'll say peace out.

[mightyfenrir]

That picture is just fantasy unless you subscribe to David Ike's theories and it very unlikely that any reptilian based creature could have evolved into anything similar to man. However it is also true that some of the smaller predator dinosaurs and perhaps some of the larger ones hunted in packs and to do this would require a greater mental capacity than we would have expected from simply a large reptile.

I don't believe dinosaurs were reptilian though, so that part is out the window for me. Anyhow, why can't we expect intelligence from a reptile? Simply because modern reptilian animals don't possess higher intelligence is not to say that ancient animals which, though I don't agree, are reptilian cannot. Personally I believe that while some dinosaur families did give birth to the family of modern reptiles the majority were slowly branching into avian characteristics. Those with the avian characteristics were notably smarter than those branching into the modern reptilian families, however, that does not prohibit either from evolving into intelligent creatures that, given the bipedal nature of the avian leaning dinosaurs, would result in a humanoid creature further along the evolutionary time line. As the animals became more upright their tails, much like our own ancestor's tails would not serve much purpose and would thus become shorter until non-existent, as in modern humans. I don't think it's that far fetched.

I think given the immense size of these creatures that a complete dependence on radiated heat to increase blood temperature would have been very impractical as they would have had great difficulty to regain heat, once that stored in their large bodies became dangerously depleted. The theory that dinosaurs had a limited capacity for producing some body heat is therefore a plausible one, although it would have not have been as well developed as warm blooded mammals, which is probably the reason they became extinct. Alternatively their body fat could have been so efficient that the prospect of reaching that critical temperature was unlikely, that is of course unless a sudden change in global temperatures occurred.

If dinosaurs were cold blooded they would have been doomed in many ways. One way would be that it would take them most of a day to charge their energy given their size and would thus spend most of their time lying about doing absolutely nothing. In this manner they would be easy prey for other dinosaurs and small mammals. The mammals would then begin to exert dominance over the slow moving dinosaurs and after a time would have become much more fearsome and the age of the dinosaurs would have been cut short by millenia. Also, dinosaur footprints and stride measurements point to quick moving beasts despite their size, not always, but some show explosive speed over distances that would be totally unsustainable by cold blooded animals despite size. In addition the growth patterns that have been noted for dinosaurs present a problem to cold blooded theories as they resemble those of mammals much more than those of reptiles.

Reticulated pythons take about 20 years to reach adult size whereas a German Shepherd takes about a year, an ostrich nine months and dinosaur growth patterns, such as can be noted, show that dinosaurs took anywhere from one year to three years to reach full adult size. This requires an active metabolism that is constantly in action and utilizes a great deal of energy. Cold blooded animals require the sun to aid in digestion so an animal the size of a diplodocus relying on the sun would take hundreds of years to reach full size regardless of gizzard stones, which have been found whether you believe the likelihood of credible sources in relation to that topic, and with all the predators around a hundred years would simply not suffice as the bloodline would end rather quickly. There are a lot of factors which point to warm bloodedness, including size actually.

It is worth mentioning that there have been at least 3 mass extinctions in the Earth's history which involved creatures of all descriptions not just large reptiles, occurring at certain points in the time zones of rock strata.

It has also struck me as strange, is that many of these creatures in the last extinction event were so very large. So large in fact that if they existed today and lay down they probably would have not been able to get up again. I therefore wonder why no one has ever considered that the Earths gravitational field may have significantly altered since then. This would mean that the Earth is in fact spinning faster than it did then which is unlikely, unless it received a large displacement through an asteroid strike.

I don't know where you got that idea considering the tendon and ligament groves found in dinosaur bones. They imply the muscles were enormous and more than adequate to propel and carry the animals to which they were attached.

Anyway, I think man should make friends with dinosaurs, like in Dinotopia... I love those books...

[Locky]

Ohh dinos, i love Dinosaurs. Although i haven't paid as much attention to them in my latter years as i would've liked.

Is there a general consensus on what killed eventually killed off the dinosaurs(at least the larger ones)? Or are scientists still uncertain?

[mightyfenrir]

Ohh dinos, i love Dinosaurs. Although i haven't paid as much attention to them in my latter years as i would've liked.

Is there a general consensus on what killed eventually killed off the dinosaurs(at least the larger ones)? Or are scientists still uncertain?

I think so far everyone here has pretty much agreed except me, but I think scientists at large have a number of theories but that one's got more support than the others.