Horse Factions

[DimeBagHo]

I have been thinking about methods to get the Scythian and Parthian AI to recruit more cavalry units. The problem is that the relatively small size and high cost of cavalry units in XGM makes them unattractive to the AI. Simply lowering the cost or increasing the size will get the right result from the AI, but it makes life too easy for the player. So I think it might be worth trying a more radical approach.

Currently the base unit sizes are 20 for cavalry units (and some special units), 40 for most infantry units, and 60 for garrison and pike units. That works out to 40/80/120 on the large setting, or 80/120/240 on huge. I usually play with a custom unit size between large and huge which gives 50/100/150.

I think the problem with the horse faction AI can be solved by giving all of their units (except for one garrison unit) a base size of about 30. In addition I want to scrap most of the foot units they have now and replace them with dismounted versions of their cavalry units, with roughly the same stats and cost.

The horse factions would then get somewhat better quality infantry options, but they would have a relatively small unit size and high cost compared to the infantry of other factions. On the other hand their cavalry units would be relatively large, and much more attractive to the AI (and the player presumably).

Parthia would probably lose Skirmishers, Hillmen, Slingers, Archers, and Heavy Spearmen, and gain dismounted versions of Horse Archers, Persian Cavalry, Cataphracts, and Cataphract Archers. I might add mounted and dismounted versions of a medium javelin/axe unit (like the eastern medium cavalry unit that Zarax has been suggesting for a while), and mounted and dismounted versions of an elite Cataphract to replace the current Immortals/Companions. Sparabara would stay as the basic garrison unit.

Scythia would probably lose Axemen, Archers, and Chosen Archers, and gain dismounted versions of select cavalry units, as well as a basic garrison unit.

The overall effect should be that the horse factions will be able to get good infantry in relatively small amounts, while having a strong incentive to recruit cavalry units much more heavily.

[RedFox]

Dime: As far as I know, 60 is the maxed limit for all units, so you have to go for Huge as the default size and drastically lower the unit sizes, to get the size you want.

It seemed to work fine for romans and Greeks, with 100(50) men on large unit size, Hoplites are much more balanced, so are the Romans in those unitsizes.

As for cavalry, unit size 30 would work quite well for the Scythians, which pretty much gives them the ability to run over enemy infantry.

[DimeBagHo]

Dime: As far as I know, 60 is the maxed limit for all units, so you have to go for Huge as the default size and drastically lower the unit sizes, to get the size you want.

I think that's right. I've edited the first post to reflect that. I think the larger cavalry unit size should help a lot in auto-calc. The one thing that might be a problem is that the larger unit size might make life too easy for the player. I'm hoping that the expense of maintaining all-cavalry armies will balance that.

[Locky]

It looks quite solid. Hope it can be implemented well.

[RedFox]

Just increase the upkeep accordingly and it should balance it out, it would honestly make those nomad factions a force to be reckoned with, because right now they pose little to no threat to the player.

What you could do, is give them a pretty large unit size and a very high upkeep (at least double the previous). But in turn, give those factions better tax income bonus, so that they could handle the upkeep.

They still need infantry to smash gates though... is there a way to lower the amount of time settlements are under siege? Haven't really checked, but there could be a way in descr_walls.txt or whatever it's called.
I found that the 8 turn sieges were just too rough on the AI, it shouldn't be over 6, I mean, it's the whole city that is starving... we'd see major pop growth drop, similar to a plague when it's taken too long..

[Zarax]

Hording could be another solution, AFAIK horde units have no upkeep so they should make AI life easier on that side...
Another option could be reworking the AI bonuses so that only the horse factions wold be unit building discounts at the start while the others could get a tax (trade would be better) one in their starting cities... This way settled factions would be comparatively richer but horse ones would get cheap production costs...

[DimeBagHo]

Is there a way to lower the amount of time settlements are under siege?

Not as far as I know. It's all hard-coded. There are ways to reduce the build time for siege equipment, but that's about it.

I'm leaning towards the following base unit sizes:
25 (cavalry, special units), 35 (horse faction infantry and cavalry), 50 (most infantry), 60 (pike and garrison infantry). On the large units setting that will give unit sizes of 50/70/100/120.

One effect will be to reduce the numerical advantage of pike and garrison units, which can be rebalanced with a bit of stat tweaking. It should also make population growth rates easier to predict.

Zarax: I tried some experiments with special low or no upkeep units. Giving units like that to AI factions with low income at the start did help them to get going. Making them recruitable had less predictable and desirable consequences.

[Zarax]

What about creating an horse archer ("horde raiders") available only in lvl1 town government with zero upkeep?
This way AI will have a cheap jumpstart but will stop getting that kind of advantage the moment they upgrade the town level...
Should be fair enough and not unbalance the game too deeply

[Cymera]

Good ideas gentlemen.

This mod is like that Energizer bunny!

[Zarax]

Well, we do have a quite high activity for such a small staff...
If I didn't have a GF at home preventing me from spending time to MOD things would be even faster...

[Cymera]

There have to be some benefits to having a GF at home, eh?

[Zarax]

It's all about cost/benefits

[Cymera]

She may get on my nerves, and I may get on hers, but I couldn't imagine life without my GF. She makes each day worth living, as corny as that sounds, it's the truth.

It's a wonderful when you realize what you have, without losing it.

Now, back on topic! I like horses.

[DimeBagHo]

Here's what I am thinking for the new line-up.

                              Scythia
         Cost  Infantry                      Cavalry

Gvt       600  Warband                       Horse Archers
Level 1   800  Light Cavalry (Dismounted)    Light Cavalry
Level 2  1000  Noble Cavalry (Dismounted)    Noble Cavalry, Noble Horse Archers
Level 3  1200  Cataphracts (Dismounted)      Cataphracts
Level 4  1400                                Cataphract Archers

                              Parthia
         Cost  Infantry                      Cavalry

Gvt       600   Sparabara                      
Level 1   800   Horse Archers (Dismounted)   Horse Archers
Level 2  1000   Heavy Cavalry (Dismounted)   Heavy Cavalry, Persian Cavalry
Level 3  1200   Cataphracts (Dismounted)     Cataphracts
Level 4  1400                                Cataphract Archers
Level 5  1600   Companions (Dismounted)      Companions

The Scythian Warband will be a very low quality garrison unit. The Scythian Light Cavalry will be javelin/axe with little armour. The Parthian Heavy Cavalry will be similar to Pontic Heavy Cavalry. The new Companions will be superior Cataphracts. The dismounted units will have similar equipment to the mounted versions. For the Cataphract units that will probably mean a mace and shield.

I could do dismounted versions of the Cataphract Archers, but I don't see much point.

[Maraxus]

So by dismounted do you mean simply the same model but on foot, or do you mean that the dismounted unit has the same strat movement as horse units, as in they ride their horses to the battle and dismount before fighing?

[DimeBagHo]

So by dismounted do you mean simply the same model but on foot, or do you mean that the dismounted unit has the same strat movement as horse units, as in they ride their horses to the battle and dismount before fighing?

Alas, that can't be done. The "dismounted" units will just look the same and have much the same stats and equipment. Horse faction family members do get movement bonuses though - so they can move faster even with infantry units.

[Zarax]

BTW, armenia should get the same units as parthia as heavy cav so maybe the parthian heavy cav could be eastern heavy cav (or even better, make it as AOR as historically was)

[DimeBagHo]

BTW, armenia should get the same units as parthia as heavy cav so maybe the parthian heavy cav could be eastern heavy cav (or even better, make it as AOR as historically was)

That's pretty much what I had in mind. There will be three Eastern Heavy Cavalry units. One for Pontus and Armenia, an AOR version recruitable by all non-eastern factions, and a larger version for Parthia. The AOR Eastern Heavy Cavalry will probably replace the current AOR Eastern Heavy Spearmen.

[Scutarii]

Wow, this idea looks really great... I can't wait until it is implemented.

[Kara Kolyo]

i like this, pass on the horse milk