Man and God

[Chaigidel]

they are so rabid in a belief they cannot back up that they must preach it to everyone and everythiing so that they can reinforce the falsehood in their own minds. :O--- the anti religion crowd I mean :O

[aduellist]

they are so rabid in a belief they cannot back up that they must preach it to everyone and everythiing so that they can reinforce the falsehood in their own minds. :O--- the anti religion crowd I mean :O

G.K. Chesterton was right. "People who don't believe in God don't believe nothing. They believe anything."

[sephodwyrm]

G.K. Chesterton was right. "People who don't believe in God don't believe nothing. They believe anything."

Oh.
No, we actually believe in evolution, science, physics, chemistry, mathematics and enlightenment values.
We do not believe in 6 day creation, 6000 year old world, end of the world in fire, man headed locusts or the Angels of Pestilence, War, Death etc. Sorry, if you have anything constructive, put it on.
Otherwise, do cut the crap. None of you guys are offering a decent argument in the first place.

they are so rabid in a belief they cannot back up that they must preach it to everyone and everythiing so that they can reinforce the falsehood in their own minds. :O--- the anti religion crowd I mean :O

Lol.
Prove it. Atheists don't force people to become atheists.
We only need to show them the real character of God.
And its usually an Abrahamic one.
We are, unfortunately, rather cool with new age druids, Neo-pagans and Satanists. To us, they are just as ridiculous as you guys, but without the political backing and the firepower or the will to actually kill people...EN MASSE.

hatred borne out of love, so love and hate are the same thing?

They are both emotive forces stemming for a desire to survive and perpetrate yourself.
Basically some strong emotions, and yes, basically the same thing.
If you love ice cream, you would probably hate the political candidate that works to ban it.

Lasted one whole post before being hijacked by the "religion is rubbish" hordes.

No, its basically hijacked by the <<religion is right, atheists are going to hell>> hordes.
These are the same hordes that goes <<Muslims are evil>>, <<Ay_rabs are trash>> when these guys actually worship the game god as the Ay-rabs and Muslamists.
But it pleases me to see foppish members of YAHWEH adherents going on the defensive.

If you guys want me to switch position I can.
I will be a defender of your pathetic faiths simply because I am also qualified to do so.

[Chaigidel]

I believe in evolution science physics chemistry mathematics and enlightenment values

and Im a monotheist of a sort.

my statement was in regards to the inherent need of the antireligious to disturb what is meant to be a discussion among people of a religious mindset.

this post was about the very beautiful passage of the bible mentioned by zenith ( one that I find moving as well)-- in the end it has nothing to do with anything else but the discussion of that passage, yet people felt the need to inject an already abused topic of anti religion--( just as many religious folks do in antireligion threads :O)

how can you show the character of a thing which you do not understand? nor even recognize? you can only show the character of your perception about things which you have no idea

[aduellist]

Oh.
No, we actually believe in evolution, science, physics, chemistry, mathematics and enlightenment values.
We do not believe in 6 day creation, 6000 year old world, end of the world in fire, man headed locusts or the Angels of Pestilence, War, Death etc. Sorry, if you have anything constructive, put it on.
Otherwise, do cut the crap. None of you guys are offering a decent argument in the first place.


Lol.
Prove it. Atheists don't force people to become atheists.
We only need to show them the real character of God.
And its usually an Abrahamic one.
We are, unfortunately, rather cool with new age druids, Neo-pagans and Satanists. To us, they are just as ridiculous as you guys, but without the political backing and the firepower or the will to actually kill people...EN MASSE.


They are both emotive forces stemming for a desire to survive and perpetrate yourself.
Basically some strong emotions, and yes, basically the same thing.
If you love ice cream, you would probably hate the political candidate that works to ban it.


No, its basically hijacked by the <<religion is right, atheists are going to hell>> hordes.
These are the same hordes that goes <<Muslims are evil>>, <<Ay_rabs are trash>> when these guys actually worship the game god as the Ay-rabs and Muslamists.
But it pleases me to see foppish members of YAHWEH adherents going on the defensive.

If you guys want me to switch position I can.
I will be a defender of your pathetic faiths simply because I am also qualified to do so.

Thank you for proving my point. You assumed I was a Christian, and a Fundamentalist at that. Wrong on both counts.

[sephodwyrm]

inherent need of the antireligious to disturb what is meant to be a discussion among people of a religious mindset.

Because there is a need.
The religious mindset are the ones running the most powerful and destructive government in the world.
The religious are the ones running the occupation and war in Iraq.
The religious are the ones that are cutting money from healthcare.
The religious are the ones that dictate that stem cell research is wrong, that homosexual marriage is wrong, and that abortion is wrong.

The final quote of Zenith is this:

You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his Sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Which the religious people in the government has TURNED THEIR BACKS on. Instead, they wage war on their enemies, and then families that have nothing to do with the supposed terrorist attacks, and then corrupted the money made by selling Iraqi oil for themselves instead of making Iraq "the model democracy".

You know, all this talking about the Bible is good.
But in the view of the greater sceneries, it is a bunch of hypocrisy. Christians that support war and torture deserve to be on the receiving end and on the defensive. Unless you guys use your Biblical and moralist rhetoric to depose this evil administration that has been sodomizing your faith, I am not convinced at ALL.

Sorry.

[Chaigidel]

so you admit religion has nothing to do with it... since these people have "turned their backs on the beliefs" you admit then that it has NOTHING to do with the bad descisions of fools that we gave power too( and we are trying to change.)-- technically bush never won the first election :O

everyone deserves everything yet some have some have not, deserve rarely comes into it.

life is shades of grey
life is hypocrisy
life is contradiction

I dont think much is right with the world, but it is what it is... cant really say more than that --- it is what it is.

[aduellist]

Because there is a need.
The religious mindset are the ones running the most powerful and destructive government in the world.
The religious are the ones running the occupation and war in Iraq.
The religious are the ones that are cutting money from healthcare.
The religious are the ones that dictate that stem cell research is wrong, that homosexual marriage is wrong, and that abortion is wrong.

The final quote of Zenith is this:

Which the religious people in the government has TURNED THEIR BACKS on. Instead, they wage war on their enemies, and then families that have nothing to do with the supposed terrorist attacks, and then corrupted the money made by selling Iraqi oil for themselves instead of making Iraq "the model democracy".

You know, all this talking about the Bible is good.
But in the view of the greater sceneries, it is a bunch of hypocrisy. Christians that support war and torture deserve to be on the receiving end and on the defensive. Unless you guys use your Biblical and moralist rhetoric to depose this evil administration that has been sodomizing your faith, I am not convinced at ALL.

Sorry.

It is not "hypocrisy" to profess belief in Christ (for example) and then fall short of His example. That's merely human weakness. It's only "hypocrisy" if you knowingly say one thing and believe the opposite. For example, Larry Flynt's "exposure" of Republicans who availed themselves of the "DC Madam's" services is rank hypocrisy because he does not personally believe that what they did is morally wrong.

You seem to want to use all these "evil" (in your subjective opinion) things done by Man as a way to discern the nature of God. The two are separate. God is undefinable in human terms.

In future, please allow those of us who wish to discuss faith and the nature of God to do so. Unless, of course, you'd like us to spam all your "anti-religion" threads with Bible tracts. Of course, we wouldn't do that because we're far more tolerant than the self-proclaimed "tolerant" atheists.

[sephodwyrm]

so you admit religion has nothing to do with it... since these people have "turned their backs on the beliefs" you admit then that it has NOTHING to do with the bad descisions of fools that we gave power too

No, religion has a lot to do with it.
No one is deposing Bush because he's a born again Christian that gave up alcoholism with the help of his loving wife.
We have things like Jesus Camp, where kids are indoctrinated to become good loyal Christians.
We have things like the young terrorist camps, for lack of better word, where kids that lost their family members to this sectarian violence between 2 Abrahamic faiths are getting more indoctrination.

Yes we would be cool if religious people keep their religious activities on the dinner table. But no its not kept on the dinner table. Its imposed on your face.

Face it, religion is a cancer.
And cancers grow out from otherwise normal cells.
For good people to commit atrocities, it takes RELIGION.

[enoch]

G.K. Chesterton was right. "People who don't believe in God don't believe nothing. They believe anything."

GK also said "There are no athiests in foxholes."

GK felt we all believed in God. And always remember, to believe in the Bible as the Absolute word of God, means one does not believe in the God GK did.

[Chaigidel]

I cannot express my amusement at this statement so I will simply repeat it.


For good people to commit atrocity it takes religion

no no no, it just takes being alive and making a choice.

I agree religion should not be taught until after 25 like it is in china as you stated ( maybe earlier but it should be taught in an academic sense) so people can make an independent choice about belief.

but the jesus camp thing was a direct response to what those poor ignorant fools saw on the TV about poor ignorant fools across the water raising children to fight a holy war with us...so naturally these people want to raise holy soldiers as well, mujahadeen of yeshua..our own little madrassas

of course thats not good but its not the religion doing it-- it is men using religion to propegate extreme and minority beliefs.

religion is not responsible because it is a tool like a screwdriver , do you blame a screwdriver for stabbing you or the guy who holds it?

[aduellist]

GK also said "There are no athiests in foxholes."

GK felt we all believed in God. And always remember, to believe in the Bible as the Absolute word of God, means one does not believe in the God GK did.

I remember watching a documentary about American POWs in Vietnam, specifically the Hanoi Hilton. The "no atheists in foxholes" point was brought up and one guy told a story about hearing that one of his fellow inmates had converted to religion. When asked which one, the prisoner replied "All of them!"

[Gwendylyn]

I remember watching a documentary about American POWs in Vietnam, specifically the Hanoi Hilton. The "no atheists in foxholes" point was brought up and one guy told a story about hearing that one of his fellow inmates had converted to religion. When asked which one, the prisoner replied "All of them!"

And that obviously proves the sound bite is true.

Tell atheist service members who were in foxholes that they believe in God and tell me what happens.

G.K. Chesterton was right. "People who don't believe in God don't believe nothing. They believe anything."

I don't actually like this quote. First impression is that its easy to see it as positive toward atheists, in that atheists are willing to believe in infinite possibilities, but in reality it just comes off as "atheists will believe anything they are told."

[Zephrelial]

Someday ... yes we all hope it comes. And the chineese didn't crucify Jesus. It was the English silly !!!

Prince

I don't understand that at all.Obviously this was an overlooked matter,Christianity could not become a religion that would be the faith of thousands of people...

I have great ideas about this:

Its book should have been called the Scorpion Bible ( a charismatic name)

,There should have been a leader for all the Christians: Pope (it's fairly
easy to pronounce and write)

Also Christians should have called some gatherings,where all the Christians could get together and discuss how they can spread christianity throughout the World...

If people accepted Christianity no prob. However if they refused Christians should have declared a holy war in the name of Jesus and should have called it : "Crusade"

Also you are not right about saying it's the English who crucified Jesus,I will present some documents very soon proving that it was Chinese,there is a side-theory that a few of them were Sarmatians...

Perphaps Enoch could clarify this a bit,he is a great theologian... Enoch was Christ crucified by the Chinese,English or the Sarmatians? Would you care to share your immense knowledge with us,being ignorant men?

[aduellist]

And that obviously proves the sound bite is true.

Sorry, I was unclear. It was not my intent to prove anything, just to relate an anecdote about Man's willingness to accept God (or any help) in times of mortal danger.

Tell atheist service members who were in foxholes that they believe in God and tell me what happens.

As a Deist, I would not presume to to tell anyone what they do or should believe. Thus my objection when an Atheist insists that my belief in God is somehow ignorant and/or foolish. First principle of Deism is that each person must find his/her own path to God by use of Reason.

I don't actually like this quote. First impression is that its easy to see it as positive toward atheists, in that atheists are willing to believe in infinite possibilities, but in reality it just comes off as "atheists will believe anything they are told."

GK meant it in the latter sense, that people who don't believe in God will believe pretty much anything that takes their fancies.

Edit: I originally wrote "must fund they way to God" (which would make me a Scientologist)

[Zephrelial]

It's a shame that this thread has been hi-jacked into the typical nonsense debates about the accuracy of the New Testament authors. If you wawnt to talk about that, then there are a thousand other threads for you to go to. So, if you don't have anything positive to bring to the actual point of this thread, then don't bring anything to it.

This means you, Enoch!



Well, I was thinking more on the lines of the Protestant ideas of Sola Fide. Actually, Sola Fide in and of itself is perfectly acceptable; the problem is however that it is totally misinterpreted by a lot of Evangelicals, almost to the point where they think that you shouldn't do good works. My point was that faith in God is composed of intellectual choice and good works together. Neither one on its own leads to faith in God.



I agree that the idea of a single, indivisible Church is as old as Christianity itself (dating back to Pentecost, of course), but I beg to differ on the question of the Petrine primacy of Rome! Petrine primacy was not invoked in a single one of the Seven Oecumenical Councils (I do not count the councils following the schism as 'Oecumenical', because the Orthodox were not present), and until the ascendancy of the Holy Roman Empire it is safe to say that it was not a reality for the Christian Church. Indeed, it's because the Pope first attempted to use Petrine primacy only in the 11th century as an excuse to force his will on the rest of the Christian Church that the schism between Orthodox and Latins happened then. If the Pope had attempted to invoke Petrine primacy any earlier, then the schism would have happened earlier as well, because the whole concept of an individual man usurping Christ's role as head of the Church was completely foreign to the Christian Church.

But there you go, I'm getting sidetracked now. Any ideas on the actual point of this thread?

If the purpose for you to opening this thread was to express how you were deeply effected by all the promises of salvation,indicated in Book of matthew,chapter 5 (3-10) you've already achieved that.

I'll be honest and won't deny that these verses have stirred some positive feelings in me,however after a second and not another second after that,I fully came to realization that these are false promises and deception at its worst just like all the religions are any good at.

I shall judge God at this point and will state how I see all his promises of salvation are fake and serves only the purpose of making people totally obedient,passive and vulnerable to the harsh realities of the Life we live in...

This paragraph and it's sequel is for God alone,and not for mortal eyes lest he exists and is reading this post.You don't need to make people suffer and make them go through all of the difficulties by making them weak,causing them to be hungry.There is not much meaning or reason to advice them to be peacemakers in a dog-eat dog world,where "money" is the true God of this Earth and people had chosen to worship it,to fill the eternal absence which you created.

For this deity which is "money" your subjects are deceiving eachother,young girls sell their flesh,and prominent men at the seats of power (politicians) throw the lives away,spending them like currency .There is not an ounce of mercy shown to people that don't have money.These people become what we mortals call "bums" they sleep on streets and beg for the God (money) while you slouch back and watch all of this...

Finally you expect too much from a species that you have given so less.If you wish and demand so many different a thing from humans,you should have created them flawless and perfect in every sense,and provided a magnificent place for them.

However,the human anatomy is flawed,the human nerve system is fragile,we wither and rot with time,also we are capable of most sinister and tyranical designs.You are like a modder that had released a single mod that is full or bugs from down to top,and all its players are calling you and hoping from you the next version,you do nothing but give false promises.

I'm sorry Zenith Darksea,but God has nothing good to give to people,or that can aid them in this World,if you want to feel good,if these lies relieve you and you put stock in them because you need to..just go ahead But be warned that there is a great chestitement and disappointment awaiting for you and for all the rest of the believers when your lives are over...

You'll ask what is this chastitement I speak of? .. Well,what more is there a greater chastitement for a man of faith,to finally see when all is over;that there is no God but darkness...

[Chaigidel]

suffering is the perfect gift of god to us zephrial learn to love it and take your lesson well. suffering is holy, suffering is life

life is pain, suffering is joy, everything is God. everything is its gift to you, now take your choice -- Void or Life

life may be suffering but at least its something, let it all be wonderful for you never had to feel at all.

[aduellist]

If the purpose for you to opening this thread was to express how you were deeply effected by all the promises of salvation,indicated in Book of matthew,chapter 5 (3-10) you've already achieved that.

I'll be honest and won't deny that these verses have stirred some positive feelings in me,however after a second and not another second after that,I fully came to realization that these are false promises and deception at its worst just like all the religions are any good at.

I shall judge God at this point and will state how I see all his promises of salvation are fake and serves only the purpose of making people totally obedient,passive and vulnerable to the harsh realities of the Life we live in...

This paragraph and it's sequel is for God alone,and not for mortal eyes lest he exists and is reading this post.You don't need to make people suffer and make them go through all of the difficulties by making them weak,causing them to be hungry.There is not much meaning or reason to advice them to be peacemakers in a dog-eat dog world,where "money" is the true God of this Earth and people had chosen to worship it,to fill the eternal absence which you created.

For this deity which is "money" your subjects are deceiving eachother,young girls sell their flesh,and prominent men at the seats of power (politicians) throw the lives away,spending them like currency .There is not an ounce of mercy shown to people that don't have money.These people become what we mortals call "bums" they sleep on streets and beg for the God (money) while you slouch back and watch all of this...

Finally you expect too much from a species that you have given so less.If you wish and demand so many different a thing from humans,you should have created them flawless and perfect in every sense,and provided a magnificent place for them.

However,the human anatomy is flawed,the human nerve system is fragile,we wither and rot with time,also we are capable of most sinister and tyranical designs.You are like a modder that had released a single mod that is full or bugs from down to top,and all its players are calling you and hoping from you the next version,you do nothing but give false promises.

I'm sorry Zenith Darksea,but God has nothing good to give to people,or that can aid them in this World,if you want to feel good,if these lies relieve you and you put stock in them because you need to..just go ahead But be warned that there is a great chestitement and disappointment awaiting for you and for all the rest of the believers when your lives are over...

You'll ask what is this chastitement I speak of? .. Well,what more is there a greater chastitement for a man of faith,to finally see when all is over;that there is no God but darkness...

That has got to be one of the darkest, most depressing things I've ever read. You'll be in my prayers.

[Zephrelial]

suffering is the perfect gift of god to us zephrial learn to love it and take your lesson well. suffering is holy, suffering is life

life is pain, suffering is joy, everything is God. everything is its gift to you, now take your choice -- Void or Life

life may be suffering but at least its something, let it all be wonderful for you never had to feel at all.

With all due respect Chaigidel,are you some kind of mazosychst that you enjoy suffering ? What kind of a justification is that ? Were you serious by saying that suffering is a gift of God to us,or were you just being sarcastic?

[aduellist]

With all due respect Chaigidel,are you some kind of mazosychst that you enjoy suffering ? What kind of a justification is that ? Were you serious by saying that suffering is a gift of God to us,or were you just being sarcastic?

Gonna agree with you here, Zeph. I could never buy into that "God wants you to suffer in this world so you'll appreciate the next" line. It does smack of masochism.