Russian summer camp that indoctrinates youth against Putin opposition, Estonia and the west

[Princeps]

It's still an absurd claim and i want something to back it up besides that it was "reported on the news".

So, American military is by defination incapable of doing wrong? Man, you need to start thinking critically. United States is just another empire, just like the Soviet Empire.

Also, you need to start using google. http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&cl...tacked&spell=1

[caprera]

I don't think somewhere else is too much better...

The are catholic camps everywhere, and i don't think they always suggest civilian debates about islamic communities...

What happens now in Russia can be still irrilevant. It's the building of that new communism that i think they want. Many friends of mine traveled in Romania and 2 of 'em also in Russia. A thing all of 'em said at the comeback was that they still support old myths. Maybe that common russian only have to follow a leader.
They need it, they want it, and maybe is not as bad as we think. I think USA has much more responsabilities in world economics and stability thanks to that idiot they call president, that a bunch of russian guys (and girls look at those two in first row...) that claims their president because it's the first that really carried some prosperity...

[Erik]

That's true.
But if we don't complain about the Boy Scouts or the National Cadet Corps (both of which do probably the same thing) I don't see any reasons why we should be against the Russian version of Boy Scouts. I am neutral in these young people's organizations. Its past their 12th year of existence and they should know better for themselves.

So long as they don't throw in religion into the thing.

I'm as much against "Jesus Camp" as against "Putin Jugend"
But this thread isn't about Jesus Camp.

Boy Scouts are alright though, they do not indoctrinate you there.

[Enemy of the State]

So, American military is by defination incapable of doing wrong? Man, you need to start thinking critically. United States is just another empire, just like the Soviet Empire.

Also, you need to start using google. http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&cl...tacked&spell=1

Nowhere does it say it was attacked because it was too focused in casualties. There were militants hiding there. There isn't a conspiracy behind every rock.

I am critical of the US. I don't support the US, but i can still see the line between reality and fantasy.

And ? What's so disturbing about that ? Should they call them "our friends from the opposition ?! Man,in politics people use what a fu_ken language they want and nobody ever payed attention seriously to their dirty words or accusations .In politics usually everything is flawed and nobody is impressed .

It's a group that was founded to fight fascists, on the street if needed. As they label absolutely all opposition fascists, they will use it as justification to attack them.

[felicissimus]

I'm as much against "Jesus Camp" as against "Putin Jugend"
But this thread isn't about Jesus Camp.

Boy Scouts are alright though, they do not indoctrinate you there.

The russian organisation is of mature people (over 18) I think .Such people can choose whatever they like and it is not indoctrination .Saying something is doctrine obliges you with an opposite doctrine -which also doesn't have justification .Therefore freedom comes into perspective and it is inproper to judge peole's views .

It's a group that was founded to fight fascists, on the street if needed. As they label absolutely all opposition fascists, they will use it as justification to attack them.

And why in hell's name should someone care about hypothethical problems of foreign country's opposition ? Which actually didn't happen ? If you tell me the opposition in Malaysia is very concerned about their political future and that you are worried how their black asses will be cicked in a palm forest,I'll laugh . Is the russian opposition different ? WHY SHOULD WE CARE ABOUT THEM ? + I remind you noone is by definition right-so this russian opposition maybe same wrong as any other ! But no,let's make a castle of Dracula out of the Cremlin . Because the russian opposition is not satisfied how much they stole . Damn them . Untill they don't succeed to be elected I'll consider them just a piece of sh_t that don't deserve their country's sympathy and my attention .

[removeduser_487563287433]

It's not for 18 and over only.

[Erik]

The russian organisation is of mature people (over 18) I think .Such people can choose whatever they like and it is not indoctrination .

Just because they can choose to attend doesn't mean it isn't indoctrination.
People also choose to join Scientology, for example.

It's the one-sidedness of worshiping Putin while demonizating all his political opposition that is worrying.

Saying something is doctrine obliges you with an opposite doctrine -which also doesn't have justification .

I don't know what you mean by this.
I'm not saying there should be anti-Putin or pro-opposition camps, if that's what you think.

I rather have people think for themselves, instead of joining organizations that tell them what to think.

[Enemy of the State]

It's 14-25 actually.

And why in hell's name should someone care about hypothethical problems of foreign country's opposition ? Which actually didn't happen ? If you tell me the opposition in Malaysia is very concerned about their political future and that you are worried how their black asses will be cicked in a palm forest,I'll laugh . Is the russian opposition different ? WHY SHOULD WE CARE ABOUT THEM ? + I remind you noone is by definition right-so this russian opposition maybe same wrong as any other ! But no,let's make a castle of Dracula out of the Cremlin . Because the russian opposition is not satisfied how much they stole . Damn them . Untill they don't succeed to be elected I'll consider them just a piece of sh_t that don't deserve their country's sympathy and my attention .

Why should i care? Because it's the symptom of an increasingly aggressive and Authoritarianist Russia. A Russia like that is a threat to my country.

So you think we should remove the entire political mudpit? Because i don't live in Russia i don't have a right to criticize it? This just makes the entire forum pointless.

[felicissimus]

It's 14-25 actually.



Why should i care? Because it's the symptom of an increasingly aggressive and Authoritarianist Russia. A Russia like that is a threat to my country.

This is fantasy .Too many definitions of smth that does not exist . You are not a politician ,are you ?

[Khan Kong]

It's a group that was founded to fight fascists, on the street if needed. As they label absolutely all opposition fascists, they will use it as justification to attack them.

It wasn't founded for this purpose, you're reading too much "unbiased" press. There's another one for that. Have you heard about "Antifa" (yeah, yeah as always - founded by the gov, I know what you'll say)? Scums that are not even better that skinheads.
"Fascist" is a common insulting word here. Even if some of them call someone with this word, it doesn't mean that they think they are real fascist.

I rather have people think for themselves, instead of joining organizations that tell them what to think.

As it was said before for severeal times, it is a volunteer organisation, where people who share the same views gather together. No one forced us to join this forum, we were gathered here by TW games. The same with the Youth Organisation.

[Erik]

As it was said before for severeal times, it is a volunteer organisation, where people who share the same views gather together. No one forced us to join this forum, we were gathered here by TW games. The same with the Youth Organisation.

I don't know why you keep bringing this up, I KNOW it's voluntary.

My point was: I think it's bad THAT PEOPLE CHOOSE to join such organizations, I think it's bad that Russians CHOOSE to stay ignorant and undemocratic.

[Enemy of the State]

This is fantasy .Too many definitions of smth that does not exist . You are not a politician ,are you ?

An authoritarian Russia is a threat to the entire world, especially the neighbors. As is any big authoritarian country.

[felicissimus]

An authoritarian Russia is a threat to the entire world, especially the neighbors. As is any big authoritarian country.

I suggest then we start being concerned about USA .It is far more dangerous and is from the WWII up to now constantly in war with somebody ...
I just saw you are from Estonia . Biased ?

[Enemy of the State]

I suggest then we start being concerned about USA .It is far more dangerous and is from the WWII up to now constantly in war with somebody ...

Yeah what the US is doing isn't good but it has absolutely nothing to do with Nashi or authoritarianism in Russia. This excuse is old "Oh look at what the US is doing so we should all forget what country B is doing"

I just saw you are from Estonia . Biased ?

Yes I'm Estonian. So i cant have an opinion without it being biased?

[bars]

So basically you took the figure of 600k - one that included all deaths whether they were fighters or not or not even killed by coalition forces and then turned it into a one million civilian casaulty rate. Thank you for admitting that you grossly embelished the figure.
Now, those murdered American journalists?

Firstly, it's 700 000 if you want to round off.
felicissimus provided you with the journalist murders, but that wasn't my point.
The main point is the Iraqi war fueled by Bush propaganda, responsible for NEARLY a million deaths.

Of course, USA coalition forces did not kill 655 000 DIRECTLY; those are war-dependent deaths.
DIRECTLY, USA along with insurgents killed around 70 000, according to latest estimates.
Do I have to spoon-feed you everything??
**70 000 direct deaths led to 655 000 indirect deaths.**
Make sense yet?
I probably should have said INDIRECLTY from the start. My mistake, I thought you'd figure it out.
http://iraqbodycount.net/
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/background.php
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4525412.stm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...raq-dead_x.htm
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Rogers/M...33883-mac.html
Obviously, most of the Iraqi casualties resulted from poverty, hunger, criminal activities, injuries, lack of hospitals, disease, etc.
(and all those factors greatly escalated after the war began)

Just like the Chernobyl most casualties are apparent only many years later.
Nonetheless, those casualties are attributed to their origin.

This is not proof that the US intentionally targetted these journalists. Most people will justly dismiss the idea as preposterous.

Yes, that's Bush propaganda at it's best.
---
Bottom line is Russia's alleged propaganda is responsible for zero deaths (maybe a few journalists ; not proven yet).
And Bush's propaganda is responsible of ~70 000 Iraqi lives (by today) and 655 000 deaths that followed (by June 2006).

[s.rwitt]

Yes, that's Bush propaganda at it's best.
---
Bottom line is Russia's alleged propaganda is responsible for zero deaths (maybe a few journalists ; not proven yet).
And Bush's propaganda is responsible of ~70 000 Iraqi lives (by today) and 655 000 deaths that followed (by June 2006).

So your telling me the Russians haven't killed any civilians in Chechneya?

Obviously, most of the Iraqi casualties resulted from poverty, hunger, criminal activities, injuries, lack of hospitals, disease, etc.
(and all those factors greatly escalated after the war began)

No OBVIOUSLY most of the civilian casualties are from the friggin car bombs the insurgents blow up every day.

So, American military is by defination incapable of doing wrong? Man, you need to start thinking critically. United States is just another empire, just like the Soviet Empire.

Just like the Soviets huh? Thats the most retarded thing I've heard in a long time. Do you have any idea what kind of stuff the soviets did to dissidents and their own people? (20 million dead in gulags, political prisoners, etc.). You should really think about these comparisons before making them because this one is just rediculous.

[Odovacar]

I dont like what USSR sorry..Russia is doing against Estonia...

They need an enemy so badly? They cannot leave the estonians to live as they like? Whats have Putin to do with sculptures or neonazis in Russia?
How could even a neonazi Estonia ruin Russia?

Ridiculous!
And yes i hate our prime minister, the traitor, who accepted Putins invintation to that damned finnugorian meeting, without estonians.

[felicissimus]

I must remind you Estonia is not in question in anyway in this thread nor anybody thinks it will be invaded by Russia . If you have some phobias or want to flame russians,go create an anti-russian estonian league thread .We discuss here the inner things in Russia itself which have in no way necessity to be respectful to the estonians or anyone else. If you don't like it,they don't give a damn .Besides I don't think your country's behaviour towards Russia has been remarkable with politeness in any way .

[Enemy of the State]

I must remind you Estonia is not in question in anyway in this thread nor anybody thinks it will be invaded by Russia . If you have some phobias or want to flame russians,go create an anti-russian estonian league thread .We discuss here the inner things in Russia itself which have in no way necessity to be respectful to the estonians or anyone else. If you don't like it,they don't give a damn .Besides I don't think your country's behaviour towards Russia has been remarkable with politeness in any way .

Why would i want to flame Russians? It would get me a caution for one, and be pointless

Your telling me i need to keep Estonia out of the debate, while you constantly bring the US in?

[Princeps]

Nowhere does it say it was attacked because it was too focused in casualties.

NY times

The US pravda said...

"...they have made little secret of their irritation with what they contend are inflated civilian casualty figures that regularly flow from the hospital - propaganda, they believe, for the Falluja insurgents, whom they blame for much of the car bombings, beheadings and other acts of terror in Iraq"

Attacking hospitals is a violation of international law -- and if the attack resulted in the deaths of patients or medical personel, Bush would be hanged. And assaulting a hospital because it reported casualties... huh.