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Thread: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

  1. #1
    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    Or 'Reasons to Ditch Sola Scriptura and Become Orthodox'

    This is a long post, but a worthwhile discussion. So don't be afraid - give it a read-through! If you like, the conclusion is marked out at the bottom, so you can read that first. Please excuse the narcissistic subtitle.

    What are you talking about?

    By the phrase 'Protestant Problem' I am not, in fact, accusing Protestants of being troublemakers or any such thing. Actually, I'm referring to an undeniable intellectual problem that arises from the nature of Protestantism itself. That is to say, there are so many different versions of it! In fact, there are over thirty thousand, I believe. Now many of these are pretty much the same, but having said that there are still many disputes, both great and small. What is particularly suprising about this issue is that most of these sects will refer to the Bible as the source and authority for their doctrines, using it to 'prove' (for example) that man's life is entirely predestined, or alternatively that man has complete free will. This is summarised in an excellent metaphor that I once read:

    Imagine a jug of clear, uncontaminated water. It is poured into five glasses, but in each glass the water appears to be of a different hue, or a different darkness. How can this be?

    To a non-Christian, one explanation would no doubt be that the Bible had no internal coherence and so could be used to produce so many different interpretations. But I am a Christian, and besides, the argument that the Bible is incoherent is basically flawed and untenable. The men who wrote and later established the Biblical canon did actually realise what they were doing and did have a specific purpose. In fact, when you consider that debates over the meaning of Holy Scripture didn't really surface until the 1500s or thereabout (and also the fact that it was entirely focused around North-Western Europe), it becomes clear that this is a cultural issue, based on an intellectual paradigm. In other words, Protestants began to think about the Bible in a different way - this was the rise of sola scriptura and the needless stigmatism of the past.

    So what? Where's the problem?

    Well unfortunately, religious divides among Protestants (not to mention Protestants and Roman Catholics) have at times been used as excuses for politically-inspired violence. What is more is that the concept of 'The Church' is extremely important within Christianity. In fact, this is one point of the Bible that must be clear to any Christian:

    I, therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you... to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, Who is over all, and through all, and in you all.
    Ephesians 1:4-6

    ...if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
    1 Timothy 3:15

    And God placed all things under his [Christ's] feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the Church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
    Ephesians 1:22-23

    Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you bishops. Be shepherds of the Church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
    Acts 20:28

    Christ has only one body, there is only one truth, and at first, there was only one collective of bishops. Clearly the Church cannot uphold the truth if it is composed of bickering splinter groups - this is the Protestant Problem.

    Were debates over Scripture really a novel thing?

    Well to be honest, no. However, divisions over Scripture were a novel thing. There was debate even in the time of the Apostles (see Acts 15), however the interesting thing is that, over time, they resolved the debate. Even when the Roman Catholics split off from the Orthodox it was not caused by a debate over the Bible. So how is it that the Christian world went 1,500 years without major divisions over Scriptural interpretation?

    Some of our earliest Christian texts (aside from Holy Scripture) actually provide the answer. St Irenaeus was a disciple of St Polycarp, who was himself a disciple of the Apostle John (who obviously knew Christ himself quite well), and he had the following to say:

    Such, then, is their system, which neither the prophets announced, nor the Lord taught, nor the apostles delivered, but of which they boast that beyond all others they have a perfect knowledge... Their manner of acting is just as if one, when a beautiful image of a king has been constructed by some skillful artist out of precious jewels, should then take this likeness of the man all to pieces, should rearrange the gems, and so fit them together as to make them into the form of a dog or of a fox, and even that but poorly executed; and should then maintain and declare that this was the beautiful image of the king which the skillful artist constructed... and by thus exhibiting the jewels, should deceive the ignorant who had no conception what a king's form was like, and persuade them that that miserable likeness of the fox was, in fact, the beautiful image of the king.
    St Irenaeus, 'Against All Heresies', VI.8

    He might almost be talking about today's Protestants, yet he was writing in the second century AD!

    Tertullian, perhaps the most important theologian of the second century, gives a solution:

    Our appeal, therefore, must not be made to the Scriptures; nor must controversy be admitted on points in which victory will either be impossible, or uncertain, or not certain enough. But even if a discussion from the Scriptures should not turn out in such a way as to place both sides on a par, the natural order of things would require that this point should be first proposed, which is now the only one which we must discuss: "With whom lies that very faith to which the Scriptures belong? From what and through whom, and when, and to whom, has been handed down that rule, by which men become Christians?" For wherever it shall be manifest that the true Christian rule and faith shall be, there will likewise be the true Scriptures and expositions thereof, and all the Christian traditions.
    Tertullian, Prescription Against the Heretics XIX

    Irenaeus adds this:

    It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about...
    St Irenaeus, Op. Cit. III.3

    Conclusion

    What Irenaeus, Tertullian, and the many other Fathers of the Church were saying is this - Scripture can be misinterpreted, and in fact even those with the best possible intentions can get it wrong. It is my solid conviction that Protestants are some of the most devout Christians in the world (and they split off from the Roman Catholics for the right reasons), but they have taken the wrong approach, the wrong intellectual paradigm. They appeal to sola scriptura ('by Scripture alone') and positively reject any tradition whatsoever. Indeed 'tradition' is a pretty dirty word among Protestants.

    But why should it be?

    The Scriptures themselves are in fact a part, perhaps the foundation, of the Church's tradition (a term frequently used in the Bible itself). To the uninformed person, they can be interpreted in many ways, but the Apostles had known Christ and had learned directly from him - they knew the correct way to interpret the Scriptures, and as Irenaeus and Tertullian say, they taught the correct interpretations to their disciples, who taught them to their disciples, and so on. In fact, it was thanks to this Apostolic Tradition that the Biblical canon was arranged as it is today (after all, the Bible wasn't just faxed in from Heaven), and the Church is guardian of this tradition (see 1 Timothy 6:20-21).

    So when pondering problems of faith, why should you keep trying to reinvent the wheel? The Living Tradition of the Church holds the answers, and let me tell you, the Apostolic Tradition isn't difficult to find.

    That's why I'm Orthodox.

  2. #2

    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    You know know... you could just take Orthodox and Catholic... add that to the number of Protestant Churches... and become suddenly aware that the entire notion of Christianity wouldn't stand up to the scrutiny of a half-retarded benobo thoroughly distracted with :wub: himself with the cream of a fermented mango.

  3. #3
    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    You know know... you could just take Orthodox and Catholic... add that to the number of Protestant Churches... and become suddenly aware that the entire notion of Christianity wouldn't stand up to the scrutiny of a half-retarded benobo thoroughly distracted with :wub: himself with the cream of a fermented mango.
    No you couldn't!

    There, I just brought as much to this discussion as you did.

  4. #4

    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    I don't agree. I think that post actually brought something to the English language in general. I'm rather proud of it.

  5. #5

    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    i agree with ferrets (arrrgh!!!) here you say
    By the phrase 'Protestant Problem' I am not, in fact, accusing Protestants of being troublemakers or any such thing. Actually, I'm referring to an undeniable intellectual problem that arises from the nature of Protestantism itself. That is to say, there are so many different versions of it! In fact, there are over thirty thousand, I believe. Now many of these are pretty much the same, but having said that there are still many disputes, both great and small. What is particularly suprising about this issue is that most of these sects will refer to the Bible as the source and authority for their doctrines, using it to 'prove' (for example) that man's life is entirely predestined, or alternatively that man has complete free will
    but surely like ferrets said you just add orthodox and catholic to that and you have a problem with christianity as a whole, i dont see how that argument doesnt extend to all christianity
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    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    Great post Zenith Darksea.

    As a non-denominational Protestant myself I have considered becoming RC for the sole reason that there are so many Protestant groups claiming so vehemently that a slight variation on their way of doing things leads to Hell.

    Personally I prefer the idea "Be quiet, and know that I am God" when sitting in church to the ridiculous, almost Bacchinalian orgy that comprises the "Shout to the Lord" and overly enthusiastic put-on of speaking in tongues and laying on of hands etc that goes with many Evangelistic organizations.

    I think you are correct though that the Protestant schism occurred for right reasons. The Roman Catholic Church was a bit of an abomination at the time, and had been for centuries. Good Lord when I read the lives, intrigues and sexual excesses of some of those medieval Popes.....

    Once such a schism occurs I think it is impossible to go back. It is a liberation from tyranny of sorts, which is remembered many centuries later. And you must remember that groups became sola scriptura as soon as the scriptures were available in the language of the common man, and not restricted to the educated Latin-speaking few who interpreted the word on behalf of the man. Once the truth of the unscriptural nature of many of the RC's traditions became known, that is not something easily forgotten. Tradition becomes almost anathema. For the Protestant, many of the traditions are directly against the Scriptures.

    *Praying to dead saints
    *Reciting the same words in prayer as a matter of ritual
    *Absolution by a priest
    *Infallibility of the Pope
    *I will never forget going to a RC cathedral for a service and have a priest with burning incense-things putting his smoke everywhere and another guy throwing holy water all over everybody. I honestly did not understand a word of the service, as most of it was Latin chants etc. Sounded great, but where is the message? What did I learn? Nothing.

    - It all seems so Law/Ritual/Tradition-based and Old Testament to most Protestants. Just what Jesus said was no way to salvation (of course I understand that most Catholics follow the traditions with their hearts and souls etc also).

    , therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you... to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, Who is over all, and through all, and in you all.
    Ephesians 1:4-6

    ...if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
    1 Timothy 3:15

    And God placed all things under his [Christ's] feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the Church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
    Ephesians 1:22-23

    Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you bishops. Be shepherds of the Church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
    Sola Scriptura, those verses say nothing whatsoever about Apostolic Succession. To most Protestants (not the extremists), the Church or Body of Christ is the global body of believers, whether Catholic or Protestant. To my mind, Orthodoxy and RC make up the Torso and the Head, whilst the Protestant denominations make up the Extremities. It all depends how one views the Body, I guess, whether as an inclusive or exclusive entity.

    Here is my main disagreement with "one literal church". People are different. People respond to different appeals. While I prefer the more meditative fellowship/worship experience, others prefer to express their joy; others like tradition, chants, gothic music, and tradition. My primary preference would be sitting on a mountain top alone contemplating the majesty of nature. Others prefer meeting in homes and spreading the Word by "cold-selling" on the streets. Others prefer standing on milk crates and appealing to the masses as they rush past.

    Along with these varied preferences lie varied talents, and all these can only do service to the Lord when permitted to express themselves (or at least, in the long run, more good than bad). Jesus looks for the one lost sheep, and if the lost one is not returned to the fold via an appeal to ritual, why not an appeal to joy and self-expression, a more casual approach?

    I believe the Ecumenical approach is better; I also believe that a worldwide Ecumenical/Inter-Denominational body should forbid utterly public expressions of one church holding the only true way to salvation, in the interests of that one lost sheep. If a church cannot agree to such a simple thing, and keep such debates in-house, then perhaps they should be excluded.

    That is my opinion anyway, and I don't pretend to be as knowledgeable on religious history as you are, but I do understand your argument. Is it not whether the Body is Inclusive or Exclusive of demoninational differences?

  7. #7

    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    Boofhead, did you just say, on a public forum, that you have considered becoming Catholic because other chruches say they are the exact way to go?

  8. #8
    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    I don't agree. I think that post actually brought something to the English language in general. I'm rather proud of it.
    It was rather eloquent in a filthy-minded sort of way, but let's not distract threads, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary88
    but surely like ferrets said you just add orthodox and catholic to that and you have a problem with christianity as a whole, i dont see how that argument doesnt extend to all christianity
    Then you either

    1. Haven't read the post properly
    or
    2. Don't know enough about history to make the connections

    The whole point about the post was that Orthodoxy doesn't have those problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead
    Once such a schism occurs I think it is impossible to go back. It is a liberation from tyranny of sorts, which is remembered many centuries later. And you must remember that groups became sola scriptura as soon as the scriptures were available in the language of the common man, and not restricted to the educated Latin-speaking few who interpreted the word on behalf of the man. Once the truth of the unscriptural nature of many of the RC's traditions became known, that is not something easily forgotten. Tradition becomes almost anathema. For the Protestant, many of the traditions are directly against the Scriptures.

    *Praying to dead saints
    *Reciting the same words in prayer as a matter of ritual
    *Absolution by a priest
    *Infallibility of the Pope
    *I will never forget going to a RC cathedral for a service and have a priest with burning incense-things putting his smoke everywhere and another guy throwing holy water all over everybody. I honestly did not understand a word of the service, as most of it was Latin chants etc. Sounded great, but where is the message? What did I learn? Nothing.
    Well of course what I was saying is that the word 'tradition' is thoroughly misinterpreted by many Protestants today. However, asking Saints for prayers is recommended in Scripture (James 5:16 - bear in mind that just because a saint is physically dead doesn't mean that he/she doesn't pray!).

    And what is wrong with ritualistic prayer? Read the Old Testament and you will see that that is exactly what the Jews did, and read the New Testament and you will see that Christ and the Apostles also worshipped at first in (ritualistic) synagogues and then, when this became impractical, in their own ritualistic churches (archaeological evidence reinforces this, not to mention textual evidence such as can be found in e.g. the letters of Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan). If we're not supposed to have any ritual, then how do you explain the existence of the Book of Psalms or the Lord's Prayer? Obviously empty ritual is bad, but ritual in itself is not necessarily bad at all. For absolution by a priest, see the discussions of 'loosing and binding'.

    Now, as for your experience of the Roman Catholic mass, what do you expect of a Church service? Just a sermon and a chance to sing hymns? Well, you should get those in both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches. But the fact is that the Divine Liturgy is not just a spectator sport - the blessings with Holy water are not just things to look at, but are actual blessings. True, it should have been in your native language (Orthodox do at least use native languages). You're not just in Church to passively learn something, you're there to be a part of something, something that is still alive around you.

    As for the Pope, it's true, there's no Scriptural support for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead
    Sola Scriptura, those verses say nothing whatsoever about Apostolic Succession.
    They don't, eh? I'll think you'll find that they do. The Church was established by the Apostles at Pentecost (according to the New Testament). The Church is practically synonymous with Apostolic Succession.

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead
    To my mind, Orthodoxy and RC make up the Torso and the Head, whilst the Protestant denominations make up the Extremities. It all depends how one views the Body, I guess, whether as an inclusive or exclusive entity.
    Extremities that reject the head... See Corinthians 1:12-27 (especially "God tempered the body...in order that there may not be a schism in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.")

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead
    Here is my main disagreement with "one literal church". People are different. People respond to different appeals.
    For even as we have many members in one body, but all the members have not the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and each one members of one another.
    Romans 12:4-5

    Believe it or not, the Orthodox Church does recognise this! That is why there are many different callings within the Church, either to be a layperson, a priest, a monk, a cantor - you sound like you might be suited to the hermit's way of worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead
    That is my opinion anyway, and I don't pretend to be as knowledgeable on religious history as you are, but I do understand your argument. Is it not whether the Body is Inclusive or Exclusive of demoninational differences?
    Of course those who are not in the Church can still be saved, since God will save whom He will. But the simple fact is that the term 'denomination' wasn't even a concept in Christianity until Protestantism came on the scene. I don't think you've addressed the argument proper:

    The 'Truth' (that the Church is the guardian of, as says 1 Tim. 3:15) is to be found in Apostolic Tradition as a whole. Therefore you only need to look for Apostolic Tradition to find the Truth. I don't just mean the literal, physical Apostolic Succession, but the actual Tradition as well (for example, the infallibility of the Pope is not part of Apostolic Tradition, and so is not part of Orthodox belief). And I'm saying that you should look towards Orthodoxy to find the Apostolic Tradition.
    Last edited by Zenith Darksea; July 30, 2007 at 08:51 AM.

  9. #9
    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    (Rambling. Erased. I rather keep it to myself))

    Every religion has many forms. Why? Because simply, religion is about belief. But you must know in what to believe. You may even have to interpret again a holy Scripture. You might even find something new in it others did not give attention to.
    Islam has many forms as well.

    God likes variety. Nothing is wrong with that. So long as you keep christian morality, and believe in one, universal God, in Jesus Christ, who is God's son, and who died for our salvation, you are christian. Some other things are required as well.
    For example you must believe in the Holy Trinity.

    But in our temple, we lutherans allow you to enter and pray with us, even if you are monophisit or such.

    Oh a side note.
    I respect your opinion, and I see the dangers in our 'no tradition' hermeneutics.
    However we seek the original christianity. Pure source of revelation.
    What would become of the religion which focuses on dozens of books, and is taught like a university stuff? Learned hypocrites would take it over, would make it to an academic, skeptical discipline..it would never reach the simple people. (And you know what Christ said about the learned who pray for long, openly yet devour the house of orphans and widows..) Christ was speaking to everyone.
    There is a gospel for the learned: John, and there are gospels to various kind of people.
    Last edited by Odovacar; July 30, 2007 at 10:47 AM.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    The various heretics are as a broken tooth-once broken it will never be a tooth again (except some protese ) .
    I find it generally useless to make intellectual discussions on faith .Nobody ever will be convinced by that .
    In fact people are convinced what is true if they see some virtues in somebody and therefore they would gladly be friends with him and contact him etc .In the course of this they might be "born from above " to see where the truth lies and perhaps join your church .It is all personal testimony if I can call it this way .Not so much with words but by the whole life if it provokes admiration .
    Just leave all this .Preach faith with perfection .Then words will not be necessary .
    EUROPA SEMPER CAPUT MUNDI

  11. #11

    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    There, I just brought as much to this discussion as you did.
    I fail to see the ape :wub: reference in that





  12. #12

    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith Darksea View Post
    Then you either

    1. Haven't read the post properly
    or
    2. Don't know enough about history to make the connections

    The whole point about the post was that Orthodoxy doesn't have those problems.
    But Christianity as a whole does. You are intentionally misunderstanding Ferrets and Gary's point to avoid having to address it.
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  13. #13
    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
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    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    Protestantism is an umbrella term for the reformed churches and Christian leanings that rebelled against Catholicism. You should compare for example Luhteranism to Catholicism, not Protestantism to Catholicism. The common denominator is the opposition to Rome, so basically protestantism is only defined by what it is not, not by what it is.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

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  14. #14
    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    But Christianity as a whole does. You are intentionally misunderstanding Ferrets and Gary's point to avoid having to address it.
    No it doesn't. You haven't read my post at all! I'm arguing that Christ gave a clear revelation to the Apostles, and that the Apostles passed on this revelation in the tradition of the Christian Church. This tradition, I am arguing, is still obvious in the Orthodox Church and, to some extent, in the Roman Catholic Church. I'm also arguing that as a result, the way to solve the problems of the diversity of Protestant views would be to return to tradition, rather than coming up with endless novelties based on out-of-context interpretation. If you want to start a debate about whether or not Christ existed, or whether or not His teachings were preserved at all, then that's a different debate and you can start your own thread on it.

    Again, nobody is really addressing the argument, which focuses specifically on the Church and the fact that Apostolic Tradition is the best way of guarding Christ's teachings, whereas focusing purely on the Bible almost guarantees misinterpretation (which we can't really have, since the Church is supposed to be the pillar and foundation of truth).

    What is more is that nobody has yet addressed the fact that the Bible as we have it today is a product of that same Apostolic Tradition that Protestants disavow.

    However we seek the original christianity. Pure source of revelation.
    What would become of the religion which focuses on dozens of books, and is taught like a university stuff? Learned hypocrites would take it over, would make it to an academic, skeptical discipline..it would never reach the simple people. (And you know what Christ said about the learned who pray for long, openly yet devour the house of orphans and widows..) Christ was speaking to everyone.
    Well if that's what you think, then you'd be better off as an Orthodox than a Protestant! Believe it or not, Orthodoxy is not taught as a university subject, and it is perfectly open to the ordinary person as well. The difference is that Orthodoxy provides the helpful interpretative framework of Apostolic Tradition, whereas Protestantism provides no framework and thus spawns a vast number of differing interpretations.

    As of yet, nobody has even come close to attempting to address the fact that sola scriptura itself is a doctrine that would be utterly alien to the Apostles and the early Christian Church, to which Protestants claim they wish to return.
    Last edited by Zenith Darksea; July 30, 2007 at 11:05 AM.

  15. #15
    Oldgamer's Avatar My President ...
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    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    Zenith, your original post in this thread was masterfully done, and I commend you for the amount of thought that went into it. There was a time when I would have found nothing wrong with it.

    However, there's no need to "solve the Protestant problem" because there's not a problem with Protestantism. The problem is with a theological tradition that claims sovereignty over the Christian world, and claims to do so in the Name of God.

    There would not be Protestants without the Catholic Church, literally. The Inquisitions, the Crusades (kill a Muslim and get into heaven!), the wars against "heresies" such as the Cathars, the terrible corruption of Catholic officials (which still exists, today), all of the deaths, torture, and sexual abuse all serve to convince me that Catholicism cannot be what Christ wanted. Whited sepulchres ....

    But there is not a problem with the Catholic Church, as I am sure most Catholics would say.

    There is also not a problem with Protestantism. There is certainly not a problem with Protestantism that needs solved.

  16. #16

    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    What books in the Bible that Catholics have but Orthodox and Protestant do not have and vice versa?


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  17. #17
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
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    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    What books in the Bible that Catholics have but Orthodox and Protestant do not have and vice versa?
    Catholics and Orthodox have the same Bible, at least it should still be that way.

    The Great Schism didn't have heretics like Luther throwing out books left and right.

  18. #18

    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    Heh, sound knowledge of Luther there, Thanatos.

  19. #19
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
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    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Heh, sound knowledge of Luther there, Thanatos.
    I only grew up in a Lutheran school for a while. I would know.

  20. #20

    Default Re: How to Solve the Protestant Problem?

    Then enlighten us! What books did Luther throw so liberally from the Bible?

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