Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

[Boudicca]

In germany we have an abortion law that is strangely liberal, strangely, because there is no real good legal system governing it.

Our supreme court has ruled that
(1) The human embryo is in fact a human being after it has settled down in the uterus at the 11th day of pregnancy
(2) That abortion means killing a human being and is therefore a crime of the highest category
(3) That killing a human being cannot be justified before the law and has to remain a crime no matter what

and...here comes the trick:

(4) That the human being within the mothers womb has nonetheless a permission to live only with the consent of the mother during the first three months of prenancy.

So abortion is basically a crime, but you have the right to abort within the first three months after visiting a counsel and talking with him about your plans. Then you'll get a piece of paper telling that you have sought counsel, can go to the doctor, have the abortion and have it paid for by the state. Strange thing that the state pays for crimes...

More difficult is the second way to get an abortion: If the child is disabled in some way you can have an abortion till birth. That means on the last day of the ninth month. We have about 350 cases of this each year in Germany.

Whereas abortion within the first three months depends on whether and how you define human life and its status, I sure as hell think that abortion in the ninth month crosses that border.

Strange thing is: The doctor going about an abortion is obliged to kill the child in the most effective way possible. Should it however be born and live (which sometimes happens during late month abortions) he immediately has the duty to protect the life with all necessary means. And it will be murder if he then still kills the child. Just to sum up our legislation here. Hope someone is interested.

[Gary88]

@boudicca, interests me. i think it sounds like a good idea that you have to seek counsel about your plan. i guess it goes some way to prevent people getting abortions for stupid reasons. i also agree that such late term abortions are wrong in most cases

[Khosson]

Wow, what a great argument! I have to write that down on my list. We shouldn't kill or sentence for life women who abort because it would hurt the economy!

Are you being ironic?

Edit:I have a strong feeling you are.Could you explain why do you disagree so much with my writable on your list argument?

[iudas]

He disagrees because it's illogical even from your point of view.

It's like saying we shouldn't jail people who murder for money...

[The Knight 2100]

We disagree with so many things I don't know where to start. Perhaps this question is a good starter: what is principal: the rights, health and life of the mother or the rights, health and chances of survival of the foetus?

One can argue about the term in which abortion is legal, or the methods in causing the abortion. To outright deny any possibility for abortion is a bad idea. Not only can this lead to all kinds of misery, abortion will not seize to exist. The mothers will have more trouble finding someone to do the abortion and it is undeniable that a legal way of abortion is much safer than an illegal way.

By the way, I take it you are not against means of preconception? These reduce the chances of unwanted pregnancy enormously, but they are often not tolerated by those who are pro-life which is in my opinion slightly hypocritical. Not hypocritical ... actually. Rather: naive.

I'm against all forms of abortion. The only case where I think it should be allowed is if the life of the mother is threatened.

It doesn't matter if illegal abortions would be more dangerous than legal abortions. That's the risk that people take when they commit crimes such as murder. It's like saying that we should allow people to steal from one another because if it's illegal, thieves might be hurt by the police when they try to apprehend them. If a woman doesn't want to put her life in danger having an abortion, she shouldn't have an abortion.

I don't have a problem with forms of contraception so long as they only prevent conception from taking place. If they take the life of an unborn child I do not support it.

@ Ferrets54:
When someone commits murder they are a threat to humanity, I think the death penalty is justified.

@Justinian:
It doesn't matter if the woman is having an abortion because she's being pressured by a boyfriend or parents because peer pressure is no excuse for murder.

Even if someone can go to Canada and get an abortion if it was illegal in the United States, it should still be illegal in the United States. At least the United States wouldn't be guilty of allowing abortion.

[Sétanta]

Perhaps this question is a good starter: what is principal: the rights, health and life of the mother or the rights, health and chances of survival of the foetus?

Both their rights are equal. Both are human beings. I thought humans were socially advanced enough to feel that all humans are equal. You can't choose a woman's rights over the fetus's life just because the woman is the one carrying the fetus. When she became pregnant, she became responsible for the life of the human being inside of her. If that fetus is killed, it is her fault. Thus, when she gets and abortion, she must be held responsible for the killing of the human being inside of her.

Abortion violates the right of the human being (unborn it may be) inside the woman to life.

[Thanatos]

Death. Murder is murder.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

I'm against Abortion. Not only because you're killing a fetus, a living human being in development, but also because forbidden abortions and lack of safe methods available can make partners think twice before whatever they make without being sure they have contraceptives ready.

[Shaun]

In order for all abortion to be murder, then even a newly conceived egg must be classed as human. Which it is not, a foetus is not classed as human - its a potential human. Big difference, life does not begin at conception... I am amazed at the ignorance displayed here in the "all abortion is murder" attitudes. I suppose these people are also against ejaculation without intent to produce a child; after all, the sperm that they just blew out has the potential to be a human as well!

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

In order for all abortion to be murder, then even a newly conceived egg must be classed as human. Which it is not, a foetus is not classed as human - its a potential human. Big difference, life does not begin at conception... I am amazed at the ignorance displayed here in the "all abortion is murder" attitudes. I suppose these people are also against ejaculation without intent to produce a child; after all, the sperm that they just blew out has the potential to be a human as well!

It rather depends. I would consider a foetus a living being and potential human, and for so it cannot be simply killed. Especially because Abortions are made by irresponsible mothers who clearly didn't even try to use contraceptives. That is, most of the time. Abortion should be legalised in case of rape, or if the mother's life is somewhat in danger.

[Sétanta]

In order for all abortion to be murder, then even a newly conceived egg must be classed as human. Which it is not, a foetus is not classed as human - its a potential human. Big difference, life does not begin at conception... I am amazed at the ignorance displayed here in the "all abortion is murder" attitudes. I suppose these people are also against ejaculation without intent to produce a child; after all, the sperm that they just blew out has the potential to be a human as well!

A fetus is a human being. An egg is not a human being. Sperm is not a human being. When the two are combined, then there is a human. Killing a fetus is killing a human being.

[Kamos]

It rather depends. I would consider a foetus a living being and potential human, and for so it cannot be simply killed. Especially because Abortions are made by irresponsible mothers who clearly didn't even try to use contraceptives. That is, most of the time. Abortion should be legalised in case of rape, or if the mother's life is somewhat in danger.

Ah but you would sooner let those irresponsible mothers that obviously didn't want the child to take care of these children which may lead to a miserable childhood due to neglect that can more than likely extend to their full life?

[Shaun]

It rather depends. I would consider a foetus a living being and potential human, and for so it cannot be simply killed. Especially because Abortions are made by irresponsible mothers who clearly didn't even try to use contraceptives. That is, most of the time. Abortion should be legalised in case of rape, or if the mother's life is somewhat in danger.

A child only has rights once its born, however, and a parasite has no rights at all.

A fetus is a human being. An egg is not a human being. Sperm is not a human being. When the two are combined, then there is a human. Killing a fetus is killing a human being.

A fetus is not an actual human being; its a potential human being, not yet born therefore has absolutely no rights, so cannot be murdered. A fetus exists inside the womb only with the mothers permission. A mother has every right to ask to get rid of a parasite living inside of her, in this case a fetus. It is not murder, because only actual human beings can be murdered. What is hard to grasp about this?

[Gwendylyn]

What's with all the blanket statements? Come on. Pretend you've won the fight: abortion is illegal. Why still yell up and down "Abortion is murder! Kill the murderer!" It's like you guys never really thought passed "Abortion is murder!" soundbites.

In current law surrounding murder we certainly don't do this. The way people act, you'd think they'd still be crying to lynch her even if 'her' was an 11-year old who was put through a back-alley abortion by the man who had been abusing her. THINK people. Just because it's an emotional topic, doesn't mean you should abandon all logic.

Most states in the US and a number of countries that members are from have not legalized the death penalty, so simply instilling death penalty for the crime across the board is impractical, because then you have to fight another set of laws. It's also totally unfair to put a blanket "all these people should go to death row" for one crime, yet even serial murderers have various sentencing due to the subjective context.

Where is the judge's discretion in this automatic death penalty rule?

What if the woman is mentally retarded? What if she is extremely underage? What if someone else forced the abortion on her? What if the baby was dying, or would die in a matter of days, and she broke the law to abort it rather than wait it out? What if she went to a foreign country to have it done and returns to the United States? What if the court can't determine if her fall down the stairs was self-induced abortion or just a mistake?

Shall we suddenly throw the death penalty at all of them without reservations? Put the 25 year old with a 'convenience' abortion at the same level as the mentally retarded 15 year old?

I'm so glad that the people in charge of these things actually think before the they legislate.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Edit - Double Post

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

A child only has rights once its born, however, and a parasite has no rights at all.

So, you consider the foetus to be a "parasite"? Imagine how many children the "parasite" will feed once it turns into a living human being! Imagine how many things he will do that humans will miss when they're starving! Just because it was a little "parasite", anyway. You know, we could just eliminate all "parasites", but then Earth would get pretty empty after this.

As for the "death penalty" apologists, Gwendylin said right: legislation shouldn't be moved by passion, but by reason. Passion provokes extremism, and this in turn leads to suffering.

But still, if people want to avoid an undesirable pregnancy, there are 5000 means of doing it. Not resorting to them, and then trying to make an abortion is just plain lack of personal responsability.

[wandervogel]

A child only has rights once its born, however, and a parasite has no rights at all.

Parasite? Parasites are foreign organisms that feed off an equally foreign host. The fetus is native to a woman, as she created the egg and invited the sperm which caused the egg to develop into a fetus. The fetus implants itself in a female's uterus which, incidently, is specifically made by nature to nurture the fetus. There are two points here: a.) the parasite analogy is bogus on all counts as she is created specifically for the task of creating and giving birth to children b.) the women's decision to encourage the creation of a fetus by introducing sperm into her body is where - and only where - the women can make a legitimate decision of life or no life.

A fetus is not an actual human being; its a potential human being, not yet born therefore has absolutely no rights, so cannot be murdered.

Those who murder pregnant women are charged with two counts of murder... The law in fact does grant rights to children within their mother's womb.

A fetus exists inside the womb only with the mothers permission.

Hrmmm? Not naturally. By nature, it exists regardless of what the mother thinks!

A mother has every right to ask to get rid of a parasite living inside of her, in this case a fetus.

Debunked.

It is not murder, because only actual human beings can be murdered. What is hard to grasp about this?

A fertilized egg is a human being, thus it is an actual human. What is so hard to grasp about that?!

[Sétanta]

A fetus is not an actual human being; its a potential human being, not yet born therefore has absolutely no rights, so cannot be murdered. A fetus exists inside the womb only with the mothers permission. A mother has every right to ask to get rid of a parasite living inside of her, in this case a fetus. It is not murder, because only actual human beings can be murdered. What is hard to grasp about this?

You are quite wrong. A fetus is an actual human being. It looks like a human, it acts human, it is genetically human. An egg is a potential human being.

Remember when Black people were only considered to be 3/5ths human? Yeah, well that type of discrimination is exactly what you are talking about right now. Just because it is small, inside a woman and unable to express itself doesn't mean it doesn't have rights. And another thing, convicted felons have no rights (well a few), so is it murder to kill them? By your definition, apparently not.

I think the fact that you call a fetus a parasite proves the point that you are absolutely delusional, along with all other pro-choice people, who think that a fetus isn't human, because it is.

A woman has the right to the choice to become pregnant or not, but once she is carrying a human being, she is responsible for that human life as well as her own. A woman does not have the right to chose if that human life deserves a premature death or not. And thus, when she chooses murder, she should be prosecuted.

[STReetSamurai]

I win

[Kamos]

A woman has the right to the choice to become pregnant or not, but once she is carrying a human being, she is responsible for that human life as well as her own. A woman does not have the right to chose if that human life deserves a premature death or not. And thus, when she chooses murder, she should be prosecuted.

And in cases of rape why should she have to have the child(don't feed me any bull about god meant it to happen) and what if her life is in serious danger should she have to throw away her life to give the child a chance at survival, if so do explain why the mother has to die. Quite frankly I think it should be entirely up to the women if she can live with the abortion it should be an option and who in gods name are any of you to say otherwise anyways?