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Thread: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

  1. #41
    LoZz's Avatar who are you?
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    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Knight 2100 View Post
    I would think that the death penalty would be an appropriate punishment.

    Either that or life in prison.

    (for both the woman and the doctor)
    but then you lose 3 lives instead of one, one of those lives being a very skilled person who takes years to teach and the other could always make another life at a later point.


    but i guess for arguments sakes the only way it could be banned would be if it was viewed as murder so the punishment should be the same i guess.

    but i think maybe more like drunk driving killers, 10 years.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    by definition a foetus isnt a human until fully developed but thats off topic.

    the sensible thing seems to me that if a doctor performs an illegal operation he should loose his medical license but the woman would also have to be punished but i agree with others that jail time is ridiculous, a fine should be enough. i'm completely against making it illegal though
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  3. #43
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    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    Quote Originally Posted by wandervogel View Post
    Parasite? Parasites are foreign organisms that feed off an equally foreign host. The fetus is native to a woman, as she created the egg and invited the sperm which caused the egg to develop into a fetus. The fetus implants itself in a female's uterus which, incidently, is specifically made by nature to nurture the fetus. There are two points here: a.) the parasite analogy is bogus on all counts as she is created specifically for the task of creating and giving birth to children b.) the women's decision to encourage the creation of a fetus by introducing sperm into her body is where - and only where - the women can make a legitimate decision of life or no life.
    Those who murder pregnant women are charged with two counts of murder... The law in fact does grant rights to children within their mother's womb.
    Hrmmm? Not naturally. By nature, it exists regardless of what the mother thinks!
    Debunked.
    A fertilized egg is a human being, thus it is an actual human. What is so hard to grasp about that?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sétanta View Post
    You are quite wrong. A fetus is an actual human being. It looks like a human, it acts human, it is genetically human. An egg is a potential human being.

    Remember when Black people were only considered to be 3/5ths human? Yeah, well that type of discrimination is exactly what you are talking about right now. Just because it is small, inside a woman and unable to express itself doesn't mean it doesn't have rights. And another thing, convicted felons have no rights (well a few), so is it murder to kill them? By your definition, apparently not.

    I think the fact that you call a fetus a parasite proves the point that you are absolutely delusional, along with all other pro-choice people, who think that a fetus isn't human, because it is.

    A woman has the right to the choice to become pregnant or not, but once she is carrying a human being, she is responsible for that human life as well as her own. A woman does not have the right to chose if that human life deserves a premature death or not. And thus, when she chooses murder, she should be prosecuted.

    Questions concerning abortion:
    What is abortion?
    Abortion is the termination of pregnancy by the induced removal of an embryo or fetus (that is incapable of survival outside the body of the woman) which results in the death of the embryo/fetus.

    What is the essential political issue concerning abortion?
    The essential political question concerning abortion is: does the fetus have a right to be in the body of a woman against the will of the woman? Or: does a woman's body belong to her, or to the government to forcibly dispose of in favor of the fetus?

    Doesn't a fetus have a right to be inside the body of the woman?
    A fetus does not have a right to be in the womb of any woman, but is there by her permission. This permission may be revoked by the woman at any time, because her womb is part of her body. Permissions are not rights. There is no such thing as the right to live inside the body of another, i.e. there is no right to enslave. Contrary to the opinion of anti-abortion activists (falsely called "pro-lifers" as they are against the right to life of the actual human being involved) a woman is not a breeding pig owned by the state (or church). Even if a fetus were developed to the point of surviving as an independent being outside the pregnant woman's womb, the fetus would still not have the right to be inside the woman's womb.

    What applies to a fetus, also applies to a physically dependent adult. If an adult—say a medical welfare recipient—must survive by being connected to someone else, they may only do so by the voluntary permission of the person they must be connected to. There is no such thing as the right to live by the efforts of someone else, i.e., there is no such thing as the right to enslave.



    Questions concerning rights:

    What is the source of all rights?
    Rights are scientific, moral principles that guarantee freedom of action in a social context. The source of an individual's right to life is one's nature as a rational being. Rights are requirements necessary for an individual to live as a rational being (human) in a society of men (see Man's Rights by Ayn Rand, published in Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal).

    Is abortion a right?
    Abortion is an inalienable right. Abortion is not a violation of any right, because there is no such thing as the freedom to live inside (or outside) of another human being as a parasite, i.e., against the will of that person.

    This principle applies to both fetuses and adults. As a woman has a right to choose who she has sex with (as her body is her property), so is it a woman's right to choose what can and cannot remain inside her body (as her body is her property). As it is evil for someone else to dictate the use of her body by raping her, so it is evil for someone else to dictate the use of her body by forcing her to remain pregnant.

    As their is no such thing as the right to live inside another, whether the fetus is removed, because of incest, or rape, or "convenience" does not matter politically—whatever the reason, it is the woman's inalienable right.

    Is abortion murder?
    Murder is the taking of the life of another human being through the initiation of physical force. Abortion is not murder, because a fetus is not an actual human being—it is a potential human being, i.e. it is a part of the woman. The concept murder only applies to the initiation of physical force used to destroy an actual human being, such as when "pro-life" terrorists bomb abortion clinics.

    Isn't the fetus "life", and thus has a right to life?
    A right is a moral sanction to freedom of action in a social context. Rights only apply to human beings, because only human beings survive by the use of reason (unlike cows, trees, bacteria—and fetuses). Rights only apply to human beings, because only human beings—and not parts of beings—survive by reason. A fetus has no rights, as it does not need freedom to take any actions, but survives on the sustenance of its host. The only rational action it must take is nothing, i.e. wait for itself to develop using the sustenance provided by its host.

    What is the capitalist view on abortion?
    Under capitalism (a social system based on the principle of individual rights) abortion is an inalienable right. Any one who advocates the outlawing of abortion (especially in the first few months of pregnancy)—like Steve Forbes—is an enemy of individual rights in principle, and thus an enemy of capitalism. As for those on the Left, who think one can have a right to property without a right to one's body, they are guilty of context dropping.




    Questions concerning the fetus:

    What is a fetus?
    The concept fetus is used to denote the unborn human from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo (the product of conception from implantation in the uterus through the eighth week of development). A fetus contains all the organs and has the basic human form.

    Is a fetus a human being because it has a complete set of human DNA?
    A fetus is human, in the sense that it contains human DNA; however, a fetus, like an embryo, is not a human being, as it has no means of independent physiological existence (as does a baby, child, or adult). As such, it is a potential human being, just like an acorn is a potential oak tree. It contains all of the DNA of an oak tree, but it is not an oak tree (See also Leonard Peikoff on Abortion: Real Audio).

    Is a fetus a human being because it has a complete set of human DNA?
    A fetus is a potential human being, and not an actual individual, because it does not have physiological independence outside its host—the pregnant woman.

    (Toward the end of a woman's pregnancy, a fetus does have the physiological means to live independently outside its host, the pregnant women, which makes the birth of a healthy child possible, though it remains physically dependent until birth. At birth the fetus becomes a physically independent baby/child.)

    Doesn't a fetus have rights because it is "life"?
    Life is a state of a cell or organism characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction. A fetus is life, just as an embryo, a sperm, an ant, an acorn, and a tree, are all life. All these forms of life have no rights. The characteristic of life is necessary to possess rights, but it alone is insufficient (see below).

    Is a fetus an independent being?
    A being is a physically independent entity. A fetus is physically/physiologically dependent on the woman (host) for its survival—especially during the early stages of pregnancy. Only upon birth is it physically independent of the woman's body, an actual independent being. A baby, in contrast, though 'socially' dependent on the actions of other human beings for its survival, is physiologically and physically independent of the body of its mother.

    (An argument can be made that a viable fetus that is fully developed (physiologically independent), but still inside the womb (physically dependent), should not be aborted, but should be delivered early.)

    Is a baby a fetus?
    A baby, infant, or child, is not a fetus. A baby is an actual human being. A baby, or adult, is a fetus actualized, just like a young oak tree is an acorn actualized.



    Questions concerning sex and choice:

    If a woman chooses to have sex with a man, and she becomes pregnant, then doesn't a fetus have a right to be inside her?

    The short answer is no. To understand why let us take the worse case situation: suppose a young college girl is brutally gang raped by a mob of college students (who were taught by their philosophy professor that morality is a matter of numbers—and there are ten of them, and one of her) resulting in the girl becoming pregnant.

    According to the view implied in the question, the fetus she carries would have no rights because she did not "choose to have sex." So she would be justified in killing the fetus, because she was raped, and did not "choose to have sex." This begs the question: was it the fault of the fetus that the girl was raped? Did the fetus choose its means of conception? Of course not. So why destroy the fetus, because the woman did not choose to become pregnant?

    The problem with such an argument is that it brings down the abortion question down from a question of rights to the matter of competing non-choices: the rights of the woman because of her non-choice of becoming pregnant versus the "rights" of the fetus because of it's non-choice in deciding on whether to be conceived.

    According to this view, the source of ones right to life is whether ones parents chose to have consensual sex or not. This is nonsense. Rights are based on the fact of man's nature as a rational being, and not on the sexual inclinations of one's parents.

    This brings us back to the original question: "If a woman chooses to have sex with a man, and she becomes pregnant, then doesn't a fetus have a right to be inside her?"

    Clearly, if the woman chooses to have sex, there would be no justification for her being forced to carry the fetus, as the essential issue is not a matter of sexual history, but a matter of rights. As there is no such thing as the right to live inside another, whether the fetus is removed, because of incest, or rape, or "convenience" does not matter politically—whatever the reason, it is the woman's inalienable right.



    Are abortion rights are based on the sexual choices of ones parents?
    The source of the right to life is not the choices of one's parents, e.g. a two year old child's rights are not based on any decisions made by its parents. The source of the right to life is one's nature as a rational being (see Man's Rights by Ayn Rand, published in Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal). Similarly, a fetus' lack of rights, are based on its nature as human tissue—and not on the choices of those who brought it into being.

    The fact is that either the fetus has a right to be inside a woman by its nature, or it does not—the issue of whether the girl chose to have sex, or not, is irrelevant. The proper response to the "choose to have sex" argument is to dismiss such an argument as irrelevant.



    Questions concerning children:

    Do children have rights?
    Children, unlike fetuses, do possess individual rights. A new born child, unlike a fetus, is a physically separate entity. A child is an actual human being, with a capability to reason, and thus a child has the same right to life as any adult. However, the application of this right for a young child differs in practice from that of an adult, as a child's conceptual faculty is not fully developed. This is why a six year old girl does not have the right to choose to enter into a sexual relationship—and an adult does.

    Why does a child, or adult, have a right to life, and not a fetus?
    A child, like an adult, exists as a physically independent entity. A fetus cannot exist as a sovereign entity, but requires a host to survive. A fetus' so called right to life boils down to the "right to remain in the womb"—and such a "right" is only possible by the violation of the actual right of the pregnant woman to her body. In contrast, observe that a child's right to life does not contradict the rights of anyone else. The principle here is that any alleged "right" that by nature entails the violation of the rights of another is not a right. There is no such thing as "trading one's rights for the rights of others." Proper rights, i.e., rights that are objectively defined, are non-contradictory.

    Do parents own their children like they own their house?
    Parents do not own their children, but are their guardians. Guardians are individuals who make decisions for the child—in the child's best interest—until the child's mind is developed enough so that the child can make decisions for himself. If a parent gives birth to a child—and claims to be its guardian (which is the prerogative of the parent)—then that parent is responsible for taking care of the child, unless the parent revokes guardianship, and turns the child over to someone else for adoption.


    Under the patronage of Rhah and brother of eventhorizen.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sétanta View Post
    You are quite wrong. A fetus is an actual human being. It looks like a human, it acts human, it is genetically human. An egg is a potential human being.

    Remember when Black people were only considered to be 3/5ths human? Yeah, well that type of discrimination is exactly what you are talking about right now. Just because it is small, inside a woman and unable to express itself doesn't mean it doesn't have rights. And another thing, convicted felons have no rights (well a few), so is it murder to kill them? By your definition, apparently not.

    I think the fact that you call a fetus a parasite proves the point that you are absolutely delusional, along with all other pro-choice people, who think that a fetus isn't human, because it is.

    A woman has the right to the choice to become pregnant or not, but once she is carrying a human being, she is responsible for that human life as well as her own. A woman does not have the right to chose if that human life deserves a premature death or not. And thus, when she chooses murder, she should be prosecuted.
    If I took your finger it would be genetically human. Yet a human it is not.

  5. #45
    Freddie's Avatar The Voice of Reason
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    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    Abortion should be discouraged since there are many decent people out their who can’t have children for whatever reason and would be happy to raise the child as their own.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    Abortion should be discouraged since there are many decent people out their who can’t have children for whatever reason and would be happy to raise the child as their own.
    adoption is a completely different matter, many children spend years in foster homes and orphanages because the adoption system never gets them into a caring home
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  7. #47
    Freddie's Avatar The Voice of Reason
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    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary88 View Post
    adoption is a completely different matter, many children spend years in foster homes and orphanages because the adoption system never gets them into a caring home
    The adoption system does have its own problems but my point still stands. I just fell there is such as causal attitude towards the whole issue and it’s too easy for women who get pregnant because of their own actions to dispose of the unborn child because they simple don’t want it.

    I’m not going to judge women who decide to go through with an abortion but I think society as whole would be better off if we could change our attitudes towards sex and people started to think what the consequences are.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    Quote Originally Posted by LoZz View Post
    but then you lose 3 lives instead of one, one of those lives being a very skilled person who takes years to teach and the other could always make another life at a later point.


    but i guess for arguments sakes the only way it could be banned would be if it was viewed as murder so the punishment should be the same i guess.

    but i think maybe more like drunk driving killers, 10 years.
    As far as I'm concerned, any doctor that performs abortions is just like the nazi doctors that experimented on the Jews in the concentration camps. They are a disgrace to the medical profession. I don't care how much training they've had or how long it will take to train another doctor, they're murderers and should be punished for their crime. The same goes for the woman, she agreed to undergo the operation, if it wasn't for her agreeing to the operation it wouldn't take place, she's just as guilty of murder and should be punished as well. The doctor and the woman aren't the victims here, the victim is the unborn child that was mercilessly slaughtered.

    As for adoption, it's a lot better for a child to spend years in a foster home or be adopted than it is for them to be killed. People always say stuff like "Well the child will have a miserable life if it's not aborted". That's like saying "I think your life sucks so you should die". No one has the authority to make that kind of decision. All people have a right to live regardless of their age or how people perceive their quality of life.

  9. #49
    Gwendylyn's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Knight 2100 View Post
    I don't care how much training they've had or how long it will take to train another doctor, they're murderers and should be punished for their crime. The same goes for the woman, she agreed to undergo the operation, if it wasn't for her agreeing to the operation it wouldn't take place, she's just as guilty of murder and should be punished as well. The doctor and the woman aren't the victims here, the victim is the unborn child that was mercilessly slaughtered..
    Then I ask you, directly, to answer the damn questions I posed to the thread, rather than say "MURDERERS! Lynch them!"

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    What if the woman is mentally retarded? What if she is extremely underage? What if someone else forced the abortion on her? What if the baby was dying, or would die in a matter of days, and she broke the law to abort it rather than wait it out? What if she went to a foreign country to have it done and returns to the United States? What if the court can't determine if her fall down the stairs was self-induced abortion or just a mistake?

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    Under the patronage of Rhah and brother of eventhorizen.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    What if the court can't determine if her fall down the stairs was self-induced abortion or just a mistake?
    "so Mrs Patterson, you expect the Jury to believe that you tripped over a crack in the pavement? MURDERER!!!!!!!!!"
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  12. #52

    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    children are not precious special treasures which must be preserved at all cost-- they are merely your genetic directive; we cannot allow animal instinct to rule our governance--- abortion must be kept absolutely legal, and absolutey acceptable.

    they are just the grubs of humanity; they are little more than a maggot.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    Bit much. But an early gathering of dividing cells is certainly no more a sacred vessel for a mythological soul than any other removable human limb.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    1. What if the woman is mentally retarded?

    Eugenics devalues human life and is wrong. All human beings have a right to life regardless of whatever deformities they may have.

    If the woman is mentally retarded and that is somehow part of why she became pregnant in the first place, or why she wants an abortion, it should still be punished as murder. Mental retardation is not an excuse to go around murdering people.

    2. What if she is extremely underage?

    This is still no justification for murder. Just because someone was underage when they got pregnant in no way makes the taking of an innocent human life acceptable. The child should not be killed for the wrong doing of the parents.

    3. What if someone else forced the abortion on her?

    If the abortion was forced on her then the person who performed the abortion should be punished for murder of the child and the physical and emotional harm done to the mother. If the mother was forced to have an abortion against her will, then she is not to be punished.

    4. What if the baby was dying, or would die in a matter of days, and she broke the law to abort it rather than wait it out?

    The mother and the doctor should still be charged with murder because again, it is never acceptable to murder someone simply because it is perceived they may have an inferior quality of life, or they will die anyways. We all die eventually, it's inevitable. Should we then just abort everyone since they'll die eventually? I certainly don't think so.

    5. What if she went to a foreign country to have it done and returns to the United States?

    She should be denied re-entry to the United States.

    6. What if the court can't determine if her fall down the stairs was self-induced abortion or just a mistake?

    Innocent until proven guilty.

  15. #55

    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    And rape?

  16. #56

    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    And rape?
    The mother and doctor should still be punished for murder. It's still murder to take an innocent life through abortion, the way that the child came into being does not affect this. The child did not commit the rape and should not be punished for it.

    If the rapist is found, he should get the death penalty too. But that's another topic.

  17. #57

    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    Punishing rape victims, lovely.

  18. #58
    Lord Condormanius's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    I think abortion should be discouraged, but safe. I consider it a health issue more than anything else.

    ...and that is about as far into someone else's personal business that I am willing to stick my nose.

    edit
    Quote Originally Posted by The Knight 2100 View Post
    She should be denied re-entry to the United States.
    Should someone that smokes hash in Amsterdam be denied reentry to the United States or face punishment upon return?
    Last edited by Lord Condormanius; July 31, 2007 at 10:12 AM.
    "There is a difference between what is wrong and what is evil. Evil is committed when clarity is taken away from what is clearly wrong, allowing wrong to be seen as less wrong, excusable, right, or an obligatory commandment of the Lord God Almighty.

    Evil is bad sold as good, wrong sold as right, injustice sold as justice. Like the coat of a virus, a thin veil of right can disguise enormous wrong and confer an ability to infect others."
    -John G. Hartung

  19. #59

    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Punishing rape victims, lovely.
    It's not punishment for being raped, it's punishment for committing murder.

    I don't care about all of this bleeding heart emotionalism. Murder is a serious and evil crime and it must be punished by the state. It doesn't matter what reasoning someone can come up with to justify their murder of someone else, it's still wrong.

    @ Lord Condormanius:

    Yes.

    Do you think that child molesters that go to Thailand to exploit children should be allowed to re-enter the United States?
    Last edited by The Knight 2100; July 31, 2007 at 10:17 AM.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Get an abortion, go to jail...but for how long?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Knight 2100 View Post
    It's not punishment for being raped, it's punishment for committing murder.

    I don't care about all of this bleeding heart emotionalism. Murder is a serious and evil crime and it must be punished by the state. It doesn't matter what reasoning someone can come up with to justify their murder of someone else, it's still wrong.
    Don't kid yourself, it's a punishment for rape victims.

    You would have mostly young girls carry a child to term, go through the rigors of childbirth and probably raise it and pay for it. You would destroy their career plans, their educational plans, their relationships. Call that bleeding heart emotionalism to be against that if it makes you happy, but I think this is ****ing barbaric.

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