Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

**conon394** · June 27, 2023, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by basics

conon394,

A long story about a subject that you completely miss. It's all figures of speech about spreading the Word of God made up on a subject that people would understand. It's about doing what Jesus was doing rather than shutting it all up as some were doing. " Go out into all the world and preach the Gospel " is the message, why? For without the Gospel there is no salvation.

Ahh yes you devolved to preaching again. But that salvation depends on your interpretation of what people said about what Jesus may have said and done and of course is really no more valid than the salvation offered by other religions.

And no I did not miss the point of either story - I made that clear. It was levity since you have given up proving why the slavery and genocide allowed by the ten commandments would make the world a better place.

Also I am sorta serious on the no washing thing. Its a good rule for daily life. Jesus is god as you see it so he knows this. You have had more than a few stories of being hospital I take it you don't want Doctors treating you to follow the lord's unsanitary advice? Jesus (or what the authors of Mark say he said) is essentially telling a mistrue in pursuit of his moral message, the germs, bacteria and or parasites that might have been removed by washing are not planning on leaving your body.

**basics** · June 28, 2023, 04:04 AM

conon394,

So, you don't believe the world would be a better place if there was no killing or the taking of slaves?

As for keeping oneself clean surely it is obvious that to do so is a healthy practice?

**conon394** · June 28, 2023, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by basics

conon394,

So, you don't believe the world would be a better place if there was no killing or the taking of slaves?

As for keeping oneself clean surely it is obvious that to do so is a healthy practice?

I never claimed that but your support of the ten commands certainly suggests you are in favor of both slavery and genocidal butchery. You were the one who argued the Ten commandments would make the world a better place and thus you approve of slavery. Note also leaders who followed them carried out god approved Genocidal butchery of conquered peoples. (I have cited both several times now) so you seem to be in favorer of butchery.

On the latter I agree - odd than for Jesus to mock the ideal.

**basics** · June 30, 2023, 03:36 AM

conon394,

Where does it say in the Ten Commandments, " Thou shalt keep slaves?" or " Thou shalt butcher and kill?" And where did Jesus mock keeping oneself clean?

**conon394** · July 01, 2023, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by basics

conon394,

Where does it say in the Ten Commandments, " Thou shalt keep slaves?" or " Thou shalt butcher and kill?" And where did Jesus mock keeping oneself clean?

Exodus 20:17. The ten commandments explicitly include slaves as part of the property you shall not covet. Thus they are ok to have. That is made more clear in the later bits of law. Both that you can have bonded servants out of your own people and people as pure perpetual property out of foreigners.

Seeing as the commandments do not stop the god approved butchery of Jericho and Moab it clear the thou shall not kill is meant for Israelites and perhaps resided foreigners.

I cited Mark 7. Jesus clearly is scornful of the Pharisees about washing and he and his followers do not clean their hands. Which is stupid since the supposed creator than claims its not a problem - though he who supposedly made man also would have to have made E.coli (what is your line god made everything from day 1-7 and its all the same?). But of course we know the people writing the bible did not have an understanding of germs or bacterial in a modern way so their god can't caution you on those can he?

But I've done so more a than a couple times and so far you simply will not admit the truth of the text. You are the one advocating for slavery and if you think god wills it genocidal butchery. Guess you don't need a Socratic dialogue on the latter to consider the point. No Euthyphro on your book shelf huh.

**conon394** · July 02, 2023, 10:46 AM

Also clarification please. Are you considering the ten commandments special and distinct from the laws that follow in Exodus and the next couple books. Are they only a subset dictated by god and the others made up by men and not even inspired (*)? I am not sure you clearly answered that question.

* That would I assume as you see it be inspired by the holy spirt which in your view is part of the trifecta so as far as I than understand God=Jesus=HS = all the same.

**basics** · July 03, 2023, 03:29 AM

conon394,

The Ten Commandments being carved out by the Hand of God Himself are the ultimate standards that God places as regards the defeat of sin that the world has fallen into. The other Laws given to Moses as he was instructed to write down were for situations that the Israelites would find in their travels and yet only covering these events with the sacrificial blood of animals leaving them still sinners. No man other than Jesus Christ was able to keep the Ten making Him the only Sacrifice for sin Who could take that scourge off a sinner to meet God's standards of righteousness. So, I think the differences are quite obvious to anyone not just reading the dead letter of Scripture.

**conon394** · July 03, 2023, 05:19 AM

So, I think the differences are quite obvious to anyone not just reading the dead letter of Scripture.

Well considering how often you manage to mangle the meaning of the text thanks for the clarification can't always be sure what you mean..

The Ten Commandments being carved out by the Hand of God Himself are the ultimate standards that God places as regards the defeat of sin that the world has fallen into.

Well fallen into is a bit vague - you mean your view of a mass punishment god supposedly issued against everything because of the mistakes of two (mythical ) people. Also nothing in the text of the OT actually says the 10 commandments are means to end sin - they are laws.

But you are at now clear living without sin includes approving of slavery. And also brutally butchering people whenever god wills.

No man other than Jesus Christ was able to keep the Ten making Him the only Sacrifice for sin

Would seem to make a god a bit annoying I mean he could have told Cain and Able don't bother you can't fix anything on sin and I am not going to be providing a means to do so for a long for a while you are better saving those goats and grain. Just in passing have you ever considered what a mess of super condensed contradictions is the Cain and Able section. I gotta think there is more Cain stories that have been lost

**basics** · July 04, 2023, 04:00 AM

conon394,

Are you saying that this world is not fallen? If that is the case then why is it that the Ten Commandments are being broken every single day by every person on the planet? And yes, they are Laws, the ultimate Laws which God holds as the standards He expects man to live by if they want to be at peace with God. So, why do people die? If God delivers justice considering His Law does that make Him a butcher? How can it because all the nations strangely enough deliver justice every day so are we butchers too? After all His justice is exactly the same for Jew and Gentile alike yet God goes one better by providing mercy through the blood soaked Sacrifice of Jesus Christ which no other belief system provides for. The numbers of Jews who perished for their sin is far greater than those that fell at Jerico so keeping harping on about that place only shows your not seeing the bigger picture. Therefore if God doesn't keep to His standards He isn't God.

**conon394** · July 05, 2023, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by basics

conon394,

Are you saying that this world is not fallen? If that is the case then why is it that the Ten Commandments are being broken every single day by every person on the planet? And yes, they are Laws, the ultimate Laws which God holds as the standards He expects man to live by if they want to be at peace with God. So, why do people die? If God delivers justice considering His Law does that make Him a butcher? How can it because all the nations strangely enough deliver justice every day so are we butchers too? After all His justice is exactly the same for Jew and Gentile alike yet God goes one better by providing mercy through the blood soaked Sacrifice of Jesus Christ which no other belief system provides for. The numbers of Jews who perished for their sin is far greater than those that fell at Jerico so keeping harping on about that place only shows your not seeing the bigger picture. Therefore if God doesn't keep to His standards He isn't God.

Hmm I find your post a bit muddy if you will.

Are you saying that this world is not fallen?

Well yes you know that. The world is. No I don't believe the creation story in the Old testament since is manifestly at odds with observable evidence nor to I believe the Manicheism interpretation you do of the New testament since they are a forced application to the text of the OT.

If that is the case then why is it that the Ten Commandments are being broken every single day by every person on the planet?

Err they were only to given (supposedly) to god's chosen tribe so umm kinda what you expect. That said I glad god's approval of slavery has been widely ignored and render formally illegal.

And yes, they are Laws, the ultimate Laws which God holds as the standards He expects man to live by if they want to be at peace with God

Err and they allow butchery of others - nice peace.

So, why do people die? If God delivers justice considering His Law does that make Him a butcher? How can it because all the nations strangely enough deliver justice every day so are we butchers too?

Potentially on the latter, but God is more capricious and cruel than most nations have been at least via the stories in the OT and NT.

After all His justice is exactly the same for Jew and Gentile

Clearly not in the OT and frankly not in the NT

yet God goes one better by providing mercy through the blood soaked Sacrifice of Jesus Christ which no other belief system provides for.

Outside of a promised good afterlife which is not really that uncommon not seeing what you mean.

The numbers of Jews who perished for their sin is far greater than those that fell at Jerico so keeping harping on about that place only shows your not seeing the bigger picture.

"harping on" You the who claims Jesus is equal to God, God ordered the massive brutal slaughter with no chance given for people to repent to joint the tribes of his chosen people and follow his laws... No treating they neighbor like thyself there. If god ordered so did Jesus and the Holy Sprit I guess the way you want to see it.

Therefore if God doesn't keep to His standards He isn't God.

What standard was he keeping at Jerich or Moab.

**basics** · July 06, 2023, 04:52 AM

conon394,

Oh yes it is muddy to all them that see Scripture as the dead letter as you do but not to all them born again of the Spirit of God. It is why Jesus could teach the socalled religious leaders a thing or two about what was actually meant in the writings of the Old Testament.

So, if you don't believe the Creation story how did we get here? What observable evidence disproves it?

Yes the Ten Commandments were given to the Israelites because they were chosen to be a Holy nation something they failed continuously to be, that failure covered by the sacrifices they made yet not enough to satisfy God. That satisfaction would only come through the Sacrifice Jesus Christ made at the cross. And once again, the Ten Commandments do not advocate the keeping of slaves but you'll certainly find in Scripture how they were to be treated.

You keep on about butchery and so you should, why? Because it is important to understand that all who die no matter by what circumstance do so because they disobey God and disbelieve Him because of their personal sin. That applies to Jew and Gentile alke.

So clearly it is in both Covenants that the price of sin is death.

Therefore all those peoples who worshipped gods made in their own imaginations were going to be defeated when they came up against Israel, why? Well, since there is only One Creator Whom every man and woman has known of since Noah and his family escaped the flood, these peoples have turned Him into what they desired rather than keeping to Who He is. So, wherever in this world there is some disaster or catastrophe rest assuered God's Judgement is behind it as the price for sin remains the same.

It is said that some 27 million Russians died in WW2 never mind all the others and you keep moaning about Jericho, come on?

**conon394** · July 06, 2023, 08:46 AM

Oh yes it is muddy to all them that see Scripture as the dead letter as you do but not to all them born again of the Spirit of God. It is why Jesus could teach the socalled religious leaders a thing or two about what was actually meant in the writings of the Old Testament.

Or so we told by others about him others who very much want that to be the case. And in any case telling people not to wash their is hardly good advice.

So, if you don't believe the Creation story how did we get here? What observable evidence disproves it?

Really you know my answer already. Its a creation myth and its no more valid than any other you can pick. Its easily disproved as we been over this the impossibility of the flood story - and lack of any evidence for it. Genetics. The demostrable age of the world the more less impossibility of reaching a billion people by 1800, lack of archeological evidence for many of its claims/stories...

And once again, the Ten Commandments do not advocate the keeping of slaves but you'll certainly find in Scripture how they were to be treated.

Now you are changing your mind and citing other scripture - do make up your mind. The commandments recognize slavery and make no attempt to ban slavery ergo they approve of the practice.

You keep on about butchery and so you should, why? Because it is important to understand that all who die no matter by what circumstance do so because they disobey God and disbelieve Him because of their personal sin. That applies to Jew and Gentile alke.

So you are not going to die?

Therefore all those peoples who worshipped gods made in their own imaginations were going to be defeated when they came up against Israel, why? Well, since there is only One Creator Whom every man and woman has known of since Noah and his family escaped the flood, these peoples have turned Him into what they desired rather than keeping to Who He is. So, wherever in this world there is some disaster or catastrophe rest assuered God's Judgement is behind it as the price for sin remains the same.

Yes but umm should not noah still gadding about by this logic.

So, wherever in this world there is some disaster or catastrophe rest assuered God's Judgement is behind it as the price for sin remains the same.

Thus we come around to the key point see there is a reason bad things happen to innocent people because even as infants a rather nasty creator god decided they are all sinners because two fantasy characters in a made up story made a mistake and at while the same erratic god eventually did kind think up a patch but it really only now gives you a second chance after you die so it can't be disproven - but your current life can sort of continue to suck and nothing is going to change that.

It is said that some 27 million Russians died in WW2 never mind all the others and you keep moaning about Jericho, come on?

The russians were not killed by the order of god with assistance. Obviously the archeology shows the Jericho story to be made up but from moral/religious stand point it demands moaning about. Jesus/God did not turn other cheek or do any loving his neighbor but ordered the butchery of a whole city irrespective of age (and animals not sure how they sinned) nor offered a sit in for people to accept the true faith etc. That makes your god capricious and cruel.

**basics** · July 07, 2023, 04:54 AM

conon394,

Key point is that there are no innocents as all are bound by sin and so must bear the penalty for it. Everything dies because of it as will this planet and its surrounds when the Lord Jesus Christ comes back to bring Judgement to its fulfilling. Then my friend you will see whether it is all mythical or not. Can't say you have not been warned.

**conon394** · July 12, 2023, 11:15 PM

hmm thought I posted this...

Originally Posted by basics

conon394,

Key point is that there are no innocents as all are bound by sin and so must bear the penalty for it.

Seems bizarre to claim that of animals and infants. But I know you like your Augustin Manichaeism.

Everything dies because of it

Than you should not - you claim jesus died for your sins and as reborn christian you have a get out of sin free card...

as will this planet and its surrounds when the Lord Jesus Christ comes back to bring Judgement to its fulfilling. Then my friend you will see whether it is all mythical or not. Can't say you have not been warned.

Or not. Given overall inaccuracy and oft slap dash nature of the bible I am not particularly worried that its story and mythology is worth betting on.