Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

[Shmuel]

so what youre saying that murder could be done freely if you have money to pay those injured ?
where's the justice in that , a man is dead , in judaism , if you kill someone on purpose , "first degree murder " your life is forfit .

[MaximiIian]

Taking their life because they took a life really isn't a logical thing to do; it's emotive and jumpy. Jurisprudence places itself above the immediate, unreasoned reaction people have and try to find a just solution.

In the Hittite codes, as well as many later law codes, punishment became more severe as the crime became more severe; monetary fines were all well and good for property damage and lesser crimes. While the death penalty was avoided as much as possible, extreme crimes did get hefty punishments. Murder, IIRC, merited either enslavement or life imprisonment with hard labour.

[Shmuel]

i did say that death penalty was reserved only for first-degree murder,
and if recall correctly the ones , who carried out justice were the judges .
they contucted trial , and dispenced justice , not the common man.

[MaximiIian]

Same with the Roman court system, and even moreso. If you had a problem, like someone stole from your or killed your relative, you have to bring it to civil court yourself, and the judge would dispense justice based on the arguments of the two parties. IIRC, the only crimes that merited direct involvement of the Roman government were treason, sedition, and apostasy.

[NogaOsibisa]

Does law need to be moral? What is the connection between law and moral? What are differences between law and moral? Who is the subject of a moral good? Who is the subject of a legal good?

[wpgacp]

I find some of the 10 commandments to be immoral.
Not having sex before marriage, not lying, no other gods and all of that stuff is pretty immoral. The only one thats any valid is the thou shall not kill one.

How is pre marital sex immoral?

[basics]

Surely as a people it is necessary to abide by some code of practice where one does no harm to another and there is no greater code than the Ten Commandments in that respect, why? Because they were given by God to a people in chaos to point them in a better direction than they were heading in their fallen condition. Not long before they had been delivered from slavery in Egypt yet most wanted to go back to what they were used to. For a great while this world accepted the Ten Commandments but like the Hebrews of old we too are falling into the same old life of chaos where anything goes as long as it doesn't involve God. In other words we are making our own morals now.

[conon394]

How is pre marital sex immoral?

It not not but once inheritance gets wrapped up in family wealth in agricultural or pastural societies it becomes shall we say problematic.... in a way that it might never be in some small hunter gather band (except for the bit where unwanted births might need to killed because you know lack of resources). But back to 'civilized communities' religious immorality allows gate keeping. No begetting or having bastards because that screws up the carful deals the family elders have arranged to use marriage as way of keeping our collective status and wealth intact and maybe build it.so no f-ing about god/goddess, spirts. etc. say so.

Surely as a people it is necessary to abide by some code of practice where one does no harm to another and there is no greater code than the Ten Commandments in that respect, why? Because they were given by God to a people in chaos to point them in a better direction than they were heading in their fallen condition. Not long before they had been delivered from slavery in Egypt yet most wanted to go back to what they were used to. For a great while this world accepted the Ten Commandments but like the Hebrews of old we too are falling into the same old life of chaos where anything goes as long as it doesn't involve God. In other words we are making our own morals now.

Its not all that impressive and obviously had to augmented with a lot other laws and simply the basics are well attested well earlier.

[basics]

conon394,

There are no greater set of rules than the Ten Commandments and if everyone on this planet stuck to them what a wonderful world it would be. The sad part is that " All have fallen short of the Glory of God," meaning such was the fall of man that no-one could ever keep them, the very reason we needed Jesus Christ to come into the world to Redeem us. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved from something that does no more than condemn you not because it is bad, rather because you are bad.

[antaeus]

It is uncertain what is the earliest written code because the one that might be is in such a state that it cannot be read properly. But the two that appear to be the finalists, Chaldean and Babylonian are what remains for us to observe.

Does that mean that no other written laws were made? That we may never know yet it seems unlikely that this is the case. However what we do know is that natural law did exist if only because no civilisation could aspire to be such without there being any law.

vs

conon394,

There are no greater set of rules than the Ten Commandments and if everyone on this planet stuck to them what a wonderful world it would be. The sad part is that " All have fallen short of the Glory of God," meaning such was the fall of man that no-one could ever keep them, the very reason we needed Jesus Christ to come into the world to Redeem us. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved from something that does no more than condemn you not because it is bad, rather because you are bad.

What a difference 14 years makes...

[conon394]

There are no greater set of rules than the Ten Commandments and if everyone on this planet stuck to them what a wonderful world it would be.

Not for the innocents and animals of Jericho. Also not so good for the slaves. And recall the neighbor bit as translated means your fellow Jews everyone else not so much.

[sumskilz]

And recall the neighbor bit as translated means your fellow Jews everyone else not so much.

Maybe...

In Hebrew, the word is rêaᶜ, which is spelled rᶜ. It usually just means “friend” or “companion”. The same word appears with the same spelling and meaning in both Ugaritic and Punic (so we can assume Canaanite in general). Its Akkadian (rūᵓu) and Bedouin Arabic (rāᶜī) cognates likewise have the same meaning.

In the context of law codes, Martin Noth’s definition seems to be widely accepted, which Koehler, Baumgartner and Stamm’s Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament summarizes as “rᶜ without expressing a particular legal relationship, means those persons with whom one is brought into contact and with whom one must live on account of the circumstances of life.” The Septuagint translates it as πλησίον in this context.

Because Hebrew law codes (Leviticus 19:34, for example) also sometimes use the word gêr, which means something like “resident alien”, it’s been suggested that rêaᶜ specifically refers to “those from among your own people”.

...

At the main topic of the thread, if anyone is still interested, the oldest known written law codes are Sumerian (Urukagina, Ur-Nammu), which isn’t too surprising, considering they were the first people to write.

[conon394]

Maybe...

In Hebrew, the word is rêaᶜ, which is spelled rᶜ. It usually just means “friend” or “companion”. The same word appears with the same spelling and meaning in both Ugaritic and Punic (so we can assume Canaanite in general). Its Akkadian (rūᵓu) and Bedouin Arabic (rāᶜī) cognates likewise have the same meaning.

In the context of law codes, Martin Noth’s definition seems to be widely accepted, which Koehler, Baumgartner and Stamm’s Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament summarizes as “rᶜ without expressing a particular legal relationship, means those persons with whom one is brought into contact and with whom one must live on account of the circumstances of life.” The Septuagint translates it as πλησίον in this context.

Because Hebrew law codes (Leviticus 19:34, for example) also sometimes use the word gêr, which means something like “resident alien”, it’s been suggested that rêaᶜ specifically refers to “those from among your own people”.

...

At the main topic of the thread, if anyone is still interested, the oldest known written law codes are Sumerian (Urukagina, Ur-Nammu), which isn’t too surprising, considering they were the first people to write.

Fair points sumskilz. I never claimed to trained in anything but Greek and Latin. I guess I still lean not over stating the inclusivity since it apparently did nothing for Jericho and allows for slaves so still a law code of ancient world.

[basics]

conon394,

So, is there a greater set of Laws than the Ten Commandments?

[conon394]

conon394,

So, is there a greater set of Laws than the Ten Commandments?

Well that is not a clear cut question. now is not?

To recap I stand by my first reply that you statement above is incorrect

"There are no greater set of rules than the Ten Commandments and if everyone on this planet stuck to them what a wonderful world it would be"

I don't really see a basis for that conclusion in the 10 commandments.

We have four out of ten that deal with establishing the Jewish religion as monotheistic. OK fine. Although technically two of those would seem problematic for you with addition of Jesus and Christians fondness for graven images.

Then we get 6 laws that are more embedded in every law coded since Sumer so not some profound new state of legal affairs

As I said above and allowing for sumskilz's more refined explanation it is still ambiguous as to if it applies to just to Jews or to Jews and non Jews living in the Jewish Polity. What it does not do is make and overt claim of universality and the fate of Jericho makes it clear Jews can kill outsiders

It formally accepts slavery. Again as one would expect in an ancient or classical law case so again nothing special.

So I suppose on the one hand its hard not say the Sumerian one(s) they invented writing first and wrote a codified law code first. After that probably I vote the Theodosian code. A monumental work to codify law across a vast mufti ethnic empire and given the associated creation of law schools and attempts to refence using past findings etc. Quite a profound work. Jumping to the more modern time its hard to ignore the Napoleonic Code.

[basics]

conon394,

Let me first emphasise that I do not have any graven images of God in my home in any form. The God I worship is in my heart not my imagination. So, if your alamgum of laws is any better than God's Ten why is this world in the state it is?

[conon394]

Let me first emphasise that I do not have any graven images of God in my home in any form

I thought that a possibility but you will allow many Christians disagree and why not Paul chucked OT laws all the time.

So, if your alamgum of laws is any better than God's Ten why is this world in the state it is?

Now a law code is supposed to produce a perfect world?

What is the state of the world you find distressing. The Calvinist Puritans certainly followed the ten commandments but did that stop them from wiping out the locals and taking their stuff (of course anyone with any familiarity with the OT could see that coming) . Also you have failed to construct an argument that the ten commandments by themselves make the world a better place. A religious holiday and a few bare stipulations that almost every law code has but that is chill with slavery and other evidence that its clearly for insiders only (oh and no way to become one an insider that is) ... And if you think about it the people they were given to decided to disagree mostly with your Paul based religion so not sure the laws produce a happy world. But have at it.

[basics]

conon394,

First off, the Ten Commandments were a pointer to man's sin and so if followed could lead to salvation but alas not one could ever keep them apart from Jesus Christ in the flesh, the very reason He had to pay the price of sin Himself on behalf of all those that the Father chose for Him and that even before He made the worlds. So, as Jesus said that if one fulfills the first two one more or less covers the rest. " Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind, and, love your neighbour as yourself," but who can do that for if they could what a wonderful world this would be?

[conon394]

First off, the Ten Commandments were a pointer to man's sin and so if followed could lead to salvation

Well look the basics of a really simple law code to me and some rules to make Jews stay Jews. So having slaves in not bad thing? How can they to salvation in your eyes since they say nothing of being born again via Jesus?

but alas not one could ever keep them apart from Jesus Christ in the flesh, the very reason He had to pay the price of sin Himself on behalf of all those that the Father chose for Him and that even before He made the worlds.

Only if you believe in your fallen world original sin ideal

So, as Jesus said that if one fulfills the first two one more or less covers the rest

Odd than god wasted his time with 10 than. Also that would technically be a post 10 commandments revision so later than.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind, and, love your neighbour as yourself," but who can do that for if they could what a wonderful world this would be?

Neither of those are in the 10 commandments.

[basics]

conon394,

None of these are in the Ten Commandments eh? Well when Jesus was asked what the greatest Commandment was He replied, " Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." and the second as being, " Love your neighbour as yourself." So, what's different about, " Thou shalt have no other Gods before Me."? Anyone who knows English will have no difficulty in understanding that both mean the same especially if one does love God unless of course the objective is just to nitpick like you. The thing is ole fella, heaven and earth will pass away as will you but Jesus' words will never pass away.