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Thread: Portugal - Discussion Thread

  1. #81

    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    What about cavalry?Is there any information?
    Also,I was told that the book's cover depicts a cavalrymen of the guard of the royal prince (John VI).Does the book has anything on this curious unit and other exotic portuguese soldiers (marines,swiss regiments,light troops and ordenanzas) ?

  2. #82
    Gen.jamesWolfe's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Geronimo2006 View Post
    Are you sure that picture is a cavalry uniform?

    The 300 Anos book came today and it also contains some non-pictorial descriptions of Portuguese uniforms in 1759 of regiments mentioned but not depicted in images on Kronoskaf. ( for 'guns' read 'canhoes' in book). Hope this helps:Also, A Google translation of an extract from the book:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    As we have indicated, most uniforms were colored Alvados, however, there were exceptions as can be seen. It was after a long research paper that found the evidence scattered sections of the Military-Historical Archive. What actually came to a poua light on this subject are the gender relations that are missing for uniforms, the request for uniforms and Panos Receipts for Gender Uniforms, etc..

    Dr. Silva Lopes, in his work, asks: Was there temporary abandonment and somehow generalized alvadio cloth between the publication of the Rules of the Board Member of the Three (1721) and War of 1762? Given the evidence I have, I answer affirmatively on this question, and, by virtue of the documents consulted, one can see that:

    -In 1759, the Commander of the Infantry Regiment of Porto pair called their 1641 men and more than three Constables Fortresses of the Navy, netting his men whose uniform was green, lining the same color, red cannons of the sleeves, shorts and green wore white. in the same document are asked to also pans for the 1458 men of the regiment of infantry of keys, which was a garrison in the port and was headed by Antonio D. of Lancaster, who gave a far-mazarine, liner same or, the mana cannon red, the color of his uniform trousers and white waistcoat.

    -- The Artillery regmento the Algarve, which totaled 342 gunners, all uniformed in green with the cannons of the sleeves and red waistcoat.

    - The artillery regiment of Beira color Alvadia uniforms and the guns of the sleeves were green.

    - The Infantry Regiment of the Algarve with a total of 1284 militaires was divided into two, one in Faro and the other in Tavira. Both total burden of white, the first of the cannons and other yellow sleeves mazarine.

    In a letter sent by Vilar Maior, addressed to D. Luis da Cunha, dated January 18 d 1759, reads: "For the uniforms of the regiments of the garrison of Peniche, which this province is just what is so uniform and poorly clad soldiers as seen in the posting that came to this Court. There is in store the food needed, but missing panels, which tells Lieutenant General Antonio Soares de Mendonca, who has no doubts in selling at the price of $ 585 reis the cubit, that in 3603 one third of white cloth and 180 2 / 3 cubits of cloth red, that it lacks for the said Rules, regardless of the amount of $ 2,219 490, which may have given to the purchaser's Tenecia for this purchase. What you have to participate. so doing this with MS. determines that the same Lord is served. God keep V, Exa.

    excellent! this was a missing excerpt from the original. all that is left though are two things:

    1-what are the button patterns? and of what type?
    2-how many of these regiments have lapels, if any?

    also, I am certain that these men I had sent-the officer and man dressed in blue-were cavalry: for starters, they have spurs on their boots (look carefully at the private's boots). also, the style of sword suspension was typical for cavalry, not infatry, and can be seen in depictions of British horse regiments. from that time ( www.britishbattles.com has a picture of a horse guard wearing such a style-the painting is apparently from the 1740's)


    lastly, I suspect "cannons" translates in this case to "cuffs". so for example, the algarve regiment, if i understand this translation correctly (the English is poor) had a green coat with green cuffs, and a red waistcoat.

    also. since you have the book, I have an additional request: can you go to the picture of the portuguese from 1762, and tell me what the stamps on the pages read? part of the stamp is on top of the cavalry officer I showed you. perhaps its a museum or library mark?

    if I know where it came from, perhaps more will be waiting for me there.
    I haz a culler!! (really, who gives a darn? its totally meaningless, and it doesn't really accurately reflect who I am)


  3. #83
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    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gen.jamesWolfe View Post
    excellent! this was a missing excerpt from the original. all that is left though are two things:

    1-what are the button patterns? and of what type?
    2-how many of these regiments have lapels, if any?

    also, I am certain that these men I had sent-the officer and man dressed in blue-were cavalry: for starters, they have spurs on their boots (look carefully at the private's boots). also, the style of sword suspension was typical for cavalry, not infatry, and can be seen in depictions of British horse regiments. from that time ( www.britishbattles.com has a picture of a horse guard wearing such a style-the painting is apparently from the 1740's)


    lastly, I suspect "cannons" translates in this case to "cuffs". so for example, the algarve regiment, if i understand this translation correctly (the English is poor) had a green coat with green cuffs, and a red waistcoat.

    also. since you have the book, I have an additional request: can you go to the picture of the portuguese from 1762, and tell me what the stamps on the pages read? part of the stamp is on top of the cavalry officer I showed you. perhaps its a museum or library mark?

    if I know where it came from, perhaps more will be waiting for me there.
    On one page with grenadiers from 1762, each image as two stamps, saying "Arquivo Historico Militar" and "Biblioteca do Ministerio da Guerra".
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Sebastian
    What about cavalry?Is there any information?
    Also,I was told that the book's cover depicts a cavalrymen of the guard of the royal prince (John VI).Does the book has anything on this curious unit and other exotic portuguese soldiers (marines,swiss regiments,light troops and ordenanzas) ?
    There are 282 pages but the only colour pictures (apart from Goa Guard) are from 1762 at the earliest. There are a huge number of late 18th century cavalry and colonial units e.g Sepoys, in the book. However, there are also text descriptions for some early units that are not in picture form. in particular, from 1792 onwards, the book has a number of wheels showing the colours of many regimental uniforms (sortof like a circular spreadsheet). I will look for the information you speak of and get back to you. That unit picture is from 1802. The reference to it says "Fig 49 - Guarda Real do principe Regente, organizada em 1802 pelo Conde D'Artois Roquefeuil".

    The book says this about the early grenadiers. It seems they did originally wear mitres and only later turned to bearskins. Here is a Google translation (note that references to "thirds" refer to tercos - the Portuguese name for a regiment):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    was with the publication of the decree of November 14, 1702 which introduced "officially" the use of grenadiers in our army as well, "for having introduced the modern militia in Europe the use of grenadiers , and the experience has shown that this kind of soldiers is of great effect in the fighting and all occasions. " D. Pedro II establishes that in each of the two-thirds had regular companies of grenadiers, who were always graded and given as elite infantry companies. However, before the publication of the Decree existed grenadiers, but non-"official" because it has previously indicated that each third would have a company of grenadiers. with respect to the uniforms of the Grenadiers were known to be equal to those of other members of the other companies of the regiment, but the head cover was different, as in all countries of Europe where the grenadiers were known for that. primarily used mitres and later shakos skin, that the simple reasons that the infantry to arremeBird grenades and other explosive devices, Could Not Have the coverage head hats with flaps, because They hinder the arms in handling and throwing the grenades. that will be in Portugal followed the same system? it seems so, because when analyzing the written sources and iconography we have the following: in relation to gender, dated 1735, among a variety of materials are baldric and tassels of gold mitres mitres grenadiers also for officers and soldiers. in office dated December 2, 1760, signed by the Earl of ega, read as follows: "... with the knowledge that you. sent me on March 31 was received from the rest for garnish chifarotes mitres and companies grenadier. "the iconographic sources, who knows, one can prove the existence of grenadiers with mitres: elvas walls on the door of Olivenza, is a statue of a soldier of infantry sporting a mitre, not knowing if the date on which certain there was placed, but the uniform in stating that no doubt will of the late seventeenth century and the early eighteenth century. This is an extraordinary and unique piece, unfortunately doomed to total abandonment, where you can clearly see the uniform and mitre of grenadier, other sources, extremely interesting, are the tile panels that are in a stairwell at the hospital of St. Anthony of hoods, which differs quite a company of infantry with its official, all sporting miters. Finally, no book "Militia Practice" Bento Gomes Coelho, printed in 1740, in Volume II, Figure 3 is that between pages 58 and 59, it appears that the drum and fife, the company of grenadiers, sports miter (are in the third row), the remaining members of that company already using bearskin shako. I know no other iconographic sources that I can give more clues, but certainly others exist. as the color of the miter, I gather, pair comparison with those of others, which should be red, Alvadia or dark blue, with the brass plate of brass yellow to golden soldiers and officers. Doing a thorough observation of the Elvas sculpture dare myself to describe his uniform as follows: miter: cloth or mazarine alvadio with her yellow tassel, gold for officers. on the front, yellow brass plate with a grenade in high relief, for the officers, golden plate. the back, will have a knock tightening (?). everything according to the figures.
    jacket: cloth mazarine Alvadia or color, open the front without bands, with the back collar of his uniform and red color (it was one of the more distinctive colors in use), yellow brass buttons with buttonholes embroidery of wool or yarn gold (depending on rank). cahoes red sleeves with three buttons of yellow brass, with caseados equal to those in uniform. the jacket has a knock on either side from where a series of tweezers in order to make it more loose, thus giving, as was customary at that time, more freedom of movement for military exercises. the pockets are drawn across the width and has eyelashes wide, much to the use of the time, and buttoned by three buttons embossed with a flower in the center, with its a la buttonholes or wire indicated above. linen white socks and black shoes with buckle and Cordovan. the bag to grenades, placed in tow, from left to right, is very decorated with floral motifs, either could be leather or cloth embroidered with her yellow or golden thread, as the post was suspended by a wide leather belt white. This is the most accurate possible description I can give the statue in question.
    Given the limits of Google Translate, I will quote the original Portuguese language of the article from 1757-59 so that Portuguese members of the forum can clarify what it means in English. Maybe that will help find the answers you seek:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    1757: Por uma questao de curiosidade, transcreve-se a Relacao do que que mandou vir para o far-damento de um Regimento de Dragoes. Este documento é datado de 1757, nao possuin-do o local de onde é datado, nem tao pouco referencia do regimento a que diz respeito, contudo, ao consultar-se o manuscrito, fica-se com uma ideia do material necessário para a sua confeccao e dos custos; assim:

    - 164 covados de pano escarlate para fardas, custo 360$800.
    - 690 oncas da galao de prata de tres géneros de largura para xairéis e capeladas. custo 966$000.
    - 90 oncas de galao de prata cartucheiras, custo 126$000.
    - Cordao e botoes para casacas, custo 6$000.
    - Duas peles de anta para cartucheiros, custo 17$600.
    - 9 arráteis e meio de la de camelo escarlate e branca, 16$000.
    - 2 dúias de camurcas para forrar as cartucheiras, 3$200.
    - 39 bandoleiras de anta com fivelas, custo 16$380.
    - 38 paus para cartucheiros, custo 4$940.
    - 950 varas de galao para xairéis dos soldados, custo 47$500.
    - Carretos com galao para xairéis dos soldados, custo 2$400.
    - Arreios fitas la para as caudas dos cavalos, custo 31$200.
    - Arreios e carretos, custo 581$161.

    Nota: Mandaram-se fazer as dragonas dos oficiais na Corte. Ter-se-ao que mandar vir para as cartucheiras, xairéis e bolsos de alguns oficiais galoes de prata. Total da despesa 2 215$180 (dois contos duzentos e quinze mil cento e oitenta réis.
    There are a few symbols there too not on my keyboard. This is how Google Translate translates it:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    In a matter of curiosity, transcribes the relationship than what had come to the uniforms of a Regiment of Dragoons. This document is dated 1757, not owning the place where it is dated, not so little reference of the regiment to which it relates, however, to consult the manuscript, one gets an idea of the material necessary for its elaboration and costs, so:



    - 164 cubits of scarlet cloth for uniforms, cost $ 360 800.

    - 690 gallon ounces of silver from three kinds of width to xairéis and chapels. cost $ 966 000.

    - 90 ounces of silver cartridge gallon, cost $ 126 000.

    - Cord and buttons for coats, cost $ 6 000.

    - Two skins for tapir cartridge, cost $ 17 600.

    - 9 pounds and a half of her camel scarlet and white, $ 16 000.

    - 2 dozen suede to line the cartridge, $ 3 200.

    - 39 bandoliers tapir with buckles, cost $ 16 380.

    - 38 sticks cartridge, cost $ 4 940.

    - 950 sticks xairéis gallon for the soldiers, cost $ 47 500.

    - Reels with xairéis gallon for the soldiers, cost $ 2 400.

    - Harness tapes it to the tails of horses, cost $ 31 200.

    - Harness and reels, cost $ 581 161.

    Note: They had to make the epaulettes of the officers in court. Has it been what have come to the cartridge, xairéis and pockets of some officials gallons of silver. Total expenditure $ 2215 180 (two thousand two hundred and fifteen thousand one hundred and eighty reis
    Next is how Yahoo Babel Fish translates it:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    For a curiosity question, it is transcribed Relation of what that it ordered to come to the fardamento of a Regiment of Dragons. This document is dated of 1757, not possessing the place of where it is dated, nor so little reference of the regiment the one that says respect, however, when consulting itself the manuscript, is with an idea of the necessary material for its confection and of the costs; thus: - 164 covados of scarlet cloth for fardas, cost 360$800. - 690 ounces of the gallon of silver of three géneros of width for capeladas xairéis and. cost 966$000. - 90 cartucheiras ounces of gallon of silver, cost 126$000. - Lace and buttons for casacas, cost 6$000. - Two skins of tapir for cartucheiros, cost 17$600. - 9 arráteis and woollen way of scarlet and white camel, 16$000. - 2 dúias of suedes to line the cartucheiras, 3$200. - 39 bandoleiras of tapir with buckles, cost 16$380. - 38 woods for cartucheiros, cost 4$940. - 950 poles of gallon for xairéis of the soldiers, cost 47$500. - Freights with gallon for xairéis of the soldiers, cost 2$400. - Harnesses ribbons there for the tails of the horses, cost 31$200. - Harnesses and freights, cost 581$161.
    Note: They had been ordered to make dragonas of the officers in the Cut. Have-if-ao that to order to come to the cartucheiras, xairéis and pockets of some official gallons of silver. Total of the expenditure 2 215$180 (two stories two hundred and fifteen a thousand one hundred and eighty kings
    Note that the translation of reias as "kings" by Yahoo is out of context: the Real was the Portuguese currency at the time, with Réis being the plural for it.

    Next, in Portuguese, the 1759 article already translated (poorly) by Google Translate. Note that there are symbols I cannot add on my keyboard:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    1759: Como se tem indicado, a maioria das fardas eram do cor alvadia, contudo, havia excepcoes como se poderá verificar. Foi após longo trabalho de pesquisa que encontrei essas provas espalhadas pelas diversas seccoes do Arquivo Histórico-Militar. O que na realidade veio fazer um pouco de luz sobre este assunto sao as 'Relacoes de Géneros para Fardas, etc.

    O Dr.Silva Lopes, no seu trabalho, questiona: 'Teria havido abandono temporário e de algum modo generalizado, de pano alvadio, entre a publicacao do Regimento da Junta dos Tres Estados (1721) e a Guerra de 1762?'. Face aos elementos que possuo, respondo afirmativamente sobre essa interrogacao, e, em virtude dos documentos consultados, pode-se constatar que:

    - Em 1759, o Comandante do Regimento de Infantaria do porto pedia para os seus 1 641 homens e mais 3 Condestáveis das Fortalezas da Marinha, panos pra os seus homens cujo uniforme era verde, forro da mesma cor, canhoes das mangas encarnados, calcoes verdes e véstia branca. No mesmo documento pede-se, igualmente, panos para os 1 458 homens do regimento de Infantaria de Chaves, que se encontrava de guarnicao no Porto e era comandado por D.Antonio de Lencastre, que fardavam de azul-ferrete, forro da mesma cor, canhoes das mangas encarnados, calcao da cor da farda e véstia branca.

    - O Regimento de Artilharia do Algarve, que totalizava 342 artilheiros, fardava todo de verde, com os canhoes das mangas encarnados, calcao da cor da farda e véstia encarnados.

    - O Regimento de Artilharia da Beira fardava de cor alvadia e os canhoes das mangas eram verdes.

    - O Regimento de Infantaria do Algarve, que num total de 1 284 militares estava dividido em dois, um em Faro e o outro em Tavira. Ambos fardavam totalmente de branco, tendo o primeiro os canhoes das mangas amarelos e o outro azul-ferrete.

    Numa carta enviada por Vilar Maior, dirigida a D.Luis da Cunha, datada de 18 de Janeiro de 1759, le-se: Para o fardamento do Regimento da guarnicao de Peniche, que desta província é só que está por fardar e tao mal vestidos os soldados como se observa no destacamento que veio a esta Corte.

    Há nos armazéns os géneros necessários, mas faltam panos, que informa o Tenente-General António Soares de Mendonca, que nao tem dúvidas em os vender ao preco de $585 réis o cóvado, que nos 3 603 1/3 de pano branco e 180 2/3 covados de pano emcarnado, de que se carece para o dito Regimento, importando na quantia de 2 219$490, que se podem mandar entregar ao comprador da Tenencia para esta compra.

    O que participo a V.Exa., para que fazendo presente a S.M. determine o mesmo Senhor a que for servido.
    Deus guarde V.Exa.
    Next comes the grid with regimental colours for infantry and artillery in 1759 and in some case 1754. I have put it into a spreadsheet. See below:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; April 28, 2010 at 12:53 PM.
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  4. #84

    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    Another question,i read at arqnet.pt that the portuguese dragoon regiments had horse grenadier companies attached to them.Does the book says anything about it?
    Also,was there any difference between the uniform of the cavalry regiments and the uniform of the dragoon ones?
    Last edited by D.Sebastian; April 28, 2010 at 12:19 PM.

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by D.Sebastian View Post
    Another question,i read at arqnet.pt that the portuguese dragoon regiments had horse grenadier companies attached to them.Does the book says anything about it?
    Also,was there any difference between the uniform of the cavalry regiments and the uniform of the dragoon ones?
    I am looking through the book but there are 282 pages and almost all the pictures are post-1762 and much of the book also includes 19th-20th century units. Do you mean early or late dragoons? On a TWcentre thread last year, someone said that the Lippe Reforms abolished the Horse-Grenadiers. I will continue reading and get back to you. Almost all the 18th century pictures showing cavalry units are wearing either Prussian blue or French-blue but these are all 1762 and later. So if there is information on the horse-grenadiers, it will be in the text instead of pictures. So I will have to keep reading.

    So far it looks like the answer to your last question - at least in the 18th century - is "Mostly Yes" but not always. Most of the dragoons are not wearing tricornes. But there are only pictures of late 18th century-to-late 20th century cavalry. However, in the 19th century, other cavalry also wear dragoon caps. For example, in 1786, the Dragoes (Dragoons) do Rio Grande de Sao Pedro (Brazilian unit), and the Dragoes do Piaui (1764) wore tricornes.

    Could you translate the Portuguese-language articles I posted above? Google Translate isn't perfect.

    General James Wolfe: I can't yet find a non-colonial cavalry unit with that uniform. The nearest I have found so far is an infantry regiment called the Regimento de Infantaria de Peniche in 1783 - except the blue is the much darker Prussian-blue. Like your picture, they have white cuffs, braiding, coat-tails,, blue-trousers and significantly given your reference to boots - jackboots too. Three differences are that they are wearing epaulets, (except the officer and drummer), yellow buttons and cross-straps. They also have a yellow-coated drummer in jackboots and a Prussian-blue waistcoat and trousers with Prussian blue buttons. I suspect this is your unit, bit it also looks like one of the colonial infantry except for cross-straps and yellow buttons

    Overall, for the 18th century, the book has 32 non-colonial infantry/cavalry/artillery regimental pictures. But it also has colour-coded wheels from 1792 onwards for uniforms. There are also some text descriptions of uniforms not depicted in images. Only one colour picture is of a pre-1762 unit (the Goa Guard from 1741).

    Here is a statue at Elvas of a Portuguese Grenadier (either late 17th century or early 18th century). The book suggests he is wearing a mitre - not a bearskin. Another picture in the book (black and white) is wearing a bearskin. Apparently, by 1740, most were wearing bearskins but with the occasionally mitre being worn instead.:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; April 28, 2010 at 07:24 PM. Reason: Found picture close to GJW's uniform
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  6. #86

    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    Interesting,but were the dragoon helmets part of the oficial uniform?I know that the cavalry regiments aparrently adopted helmets too at the end of the century,as we can see in this picture of a private from the bragança regiment in 1799 (Who also wears a cuirass.Is there any information on the book about it?Aparently those were also used by the cavalry regiments at the beggining of the century.)
    The book does not have any pictures of metropolitan (non-colonial) dragoons, does it?
    And one last thing,is there any good information on the dress of the cavalry before the reforms of 1763 ?

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    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    @ geronimo: excellent. time to email a bunch of people for more information.
    I haz a culler!! (really, who gives a darn? its totally meaningless, and it doesn't really accurately reflect who I am)


  8. #88
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    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    Uniform of Squadron of Count of Rio Grande in 1708:
    Quote Originally Posted by translation
    Has knowledge of an infantry regiment, commanded by Colonel Pedro Goncalves da Camara Coutinho, who was quartered in Lisbon, and that on the day of shipment, the squadron of the Count de Rio Grande, wore the blue will make clear, braided silver of 'three fingers wide and gallon, feathers and white socks." The supply of weapons to the army was made from the royal warehouses and according to the approved models. Each model was in possession of the King, the Marshal-General of the Army, the War Minister, General of Infantry and finally the Inspector General.
    Original (there is a French-style circumflex symbol over the "a" in galao):
    Tem-se conhecimento de um Regimento de Infantaria, comandado pelo Coronel Pedro Goncalves da Camara Coutinho, que estava aquartelado em Lisbon, e que no dia do embarque, na esquadra do Conde do Rio Grande, vestiam far-das azuis claras, agaloadas a prata de 'tres dedos de largo e galao, plumas e meias brancas'. O fornecimento de armas ao éxercito era feito a partir dos Armazéns Reais e conforme os modelos aprovados. Cada modelo destes estava em posse do Rei, do Marechal-General do Éxercito, do Ministro da Guerra, do General da Infantaria e finalemente do Inspector-Geral.
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Sebastian View Post
    Interesting,but were the dragoon helmets part of the oficial uniform?I know that the cavalry regiments aparrently adopted helmets too at the end of the century,as we can see in this picture of a private from the bragança regiment in 1799 (Who also wears a cuirass.Is there any information on the book about it?Aparently those were also used by the cavalry regiments at the beggining of the century.)
    The book does not have any pictures of metropolitan (non-colonial) dragoons, does it?
    And one last thing,is there any good information on the dress of the cavalry before the reforms of 1763 ?
    The book has 282 pages in Portuguese and there are at least as many pictures from after the 18th century (in fact probably more) as in it. But all the cavalry pictures in the book are at least from 1764. There are no images from before then. But there might be descriptions in the text so I am going to have to do a lot of typing and translating today and when I find the other answers you are looking for I will post them here.

    However, I have an image someone posted a long time ago of early Brazilian colonial cavalry. Does anyone know the source of these images? I had hoped it was the 300 Anos book but it isn't. In any case I now recognise one of the names in it from 300 Anos: the Pardo (period name for Black soldiers in Brazil) are referred to as Homens Pretos (meaning Black men).
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; April 29, 2010 at 12:13 PM.
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  9. #89

    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    I have another picture from the same source,depicting other colonial troops,mostly irregulars.I found them at the "portugal militar" yahoo group,and apparently those come from the collection of the Museu Historico Nacional,altough I have already tried to search for the uniforms in the museum site and I found nothing.Latter I will post the other picture.

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    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    More (imperfect) translations, including confirmation of Alvadia uniforms for cavalry:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    1715: The color Alvadia, aka off-white, was chosen for economic reasons, and not for looks, though, and unusually, continued to appear colored uniforms. In January 1715, was found dead in Lisbon a soldier blue jacket. Around the same time a Spanish writer, Diego Torres Vilarroel, a third soldier was Portuguese, called 'Los Ultramarinos' and had green uniforms that possibly was an infantry Marine.

    1717: In 1717, the Lisbon Infantry Regiment, commanded by Colonel Pedro Goncalves da Camara Coutinho, when he embarked in the fleet of Count de Rio Grande, was dressed entirely in pale blue, with silver gallon three fingers wide and white feathers in tricórnio . The gallon of silver should be applied to guns of sleeves and pockets of his coat, as was customary at that time, though officials were also in embroidered waistcoat, and possibly in cuffs and caseados in uniform. This uniform was very unusual for a line unit, especially embroidery and feathers in his hat, however, were as expeditionary forces, should have given them more finesse to score with the presence of foreign troops.

    1721: The Rules of the Board of the tri-state (3 Estates?), from December 28, 1721, mandates certain provisions relating to uniforms of the troops in general, among others points out: "Regiments of the show that is done every year in the month of May if distributes uniforms, giving every soldier the following: a coat, a waistcoat, a pants, a hat, two shirts, two ties, two pairs of socks and shoes, as in previous years, finally in the third year, will be given new uniforms, which will fix it in the fourth, again following the order indicated. The panels will be the factories in the kingdom with five feet six and a half if large, to which rags called "desochenos" and will be color Alvadia for all infants and soldiers on horseback and of netting is farao jackets, dresses and shorts will be lined with burlap.

    There will also be the provision of cloth of various colors such as red, blue, green, etc.. for the linings of coats of canhoes (cuffs), which would be made in a regiment of these colors on the advice of the Colonels. The stockings will be de la acairelados white hats and white. The soldiers' overcoats horse will have enough breadth and coarse cloth of the same color Alvados. Officers of all the bodies they wear evenly and the color of the regiments where they do service, and highly recommend to the Governors of the Province, they not consent rich gaskets (rich meals?), which are not themselves the troops well disciplined and willing to work the war.

    1737:
    The curious and rare book "Discourses on military discipline and science of a foot soldier, dedicated to young soldiers (1737)," in Discourse VI, concerning "the uniforms of the troops" pp.35-40 read as: 'a of the most accurate for the conservation and discipline of the troops and bring them well uniformed: evil can a soldier suffering from the inclement cold and rain, that experiments in marches and in the company without the repair of a good uniform. And having put the greatest princes in luzimento troops to its greater size, with reason, because only they make them obeyed and respected, should be very knife with which such order and rule, which is not backing away from spending needs, avoiding the hindsight using the same time the people using it gives the factories in the kingdom. The method of uniforms Portuguese troops will only become good and useful if you have to do for the seat panels in the works of Covilha, but should not be in this one, but for more years, because when the manufacturer and seats can protect themselves in advance brought them to parties, where you found them with more convenience, you can also give a lower price cloths with great usefulness of the Exchequer. Liners, socks, and sapotas commission, which dao per seat ordinarily are bad, because the sexes are forged in the breadth and quality and are a consequence of very short duration, making a lot of seats, not interesting that the Royal Treasury and the soldiers are very prejudiced.
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Sebastian View Post
    I have another picture from the same source,depicting other colonial troops,mostly irregulars.I found them at the "portugal militar" yahoo group,and apparently those come from the collection of the Museu Historico Nacional,altough I have already tried to search for the uniforms in the museum site and I found nothing.Latter I will post the other picture.
    Early or Late 18th century? Carricanta already gave a link to very large numbers of colonial Brazilian troops but except for two dragoon units (Reais Minas and Rio Grande) they are all 1760's onwards. It would be a great help if you could name the units in the early 18th century picture above. They are obviously early units because of the alvadia uniforms.
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; April 29, 2010 at 06:37 PM.
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  11. #91

    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    This is the picture I was talking about.I would say those soldiers are pre-lippe,jugding by their uniform colors and styles.
    Did you find any information on the cavalry?

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    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by D.Sebastian View Post
    This is the picture I was talking about.I would say those soldiers are pre-lippe,jugding by their uniform colors and styles.
    Did you find any information on the cavalry?
    Excellent pictures. I am updating my post above with new translations from extracts of the book. I have a picture (not from my book) of the first soldier in that picture in the white uniform with red cuffs. It is referred in the picture as "auxiliares de cavallo do sertam" a colonial unit in Brazil. I cannot find a place called "Sertam" online, so I suspect it is Sertao, Brazil. The man on the bottom lefthand corner is obviously an officer, because of his red-sash around his waist, which Portuguese officers wore until the 1930's.
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; April 29, 2010 at 05:14 PM.
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  13. #93
    carricanta's Avatar Going Nowhere Fast!
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    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Geronimo2006 View Post
    Excellent pictures. I am updating my post above with new translations from extracts of the book. I have a picture (not from my book) of the first soldier in that picture in the white uniform with red cuffs. It is referred in the picture as "auxiliares de cavallo do sertam" a colonial unit in Brazil. I cannot find a place called "Sertam" online, so I suspect it is Sertao, Brazil. The man on the bottom lefthand corner is obviously an officer, because of his red-sash around his waist, which Portuguese officers wore until the 1930's.
    Yes:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sert%C3%A3o

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    Turns out that JuniorGeneral.com is correct on many of the post-Lippe Portuguese uniforms, including Porto, Viana and Chaves. They are also correct on Campo-Maior except they don't have the slight silver/white braiding on the overcoat beside the belt area.

    I don't understand the Portuguese language, so if someone here does and would like to assist me with translation (Google/Babelfish aren't great with Portuguese) that would be great. With the exception of the black and white pictures from 1740 and the ones I posted here, the colour picture of the Goa Guard, and a few un-named early Portuguese colonial pictures posted on this forum, I have no pictures from the early 18th century - even with this book. There are loads of pictures in the book, but they are almost all 1762 onwards. I have hoping to find more information in the quotations in the book from the uniform regulations from the early 18th century, but they are very vague indeed.

    In that context, I would like for someone in Portugal to check out if they can gain permission from a museum to look at those pictures in greater detail so as to come back withregimental names corresponding to them. I am also now on the lookout for another book "Conquista da Madrid 1706". It has an image of a Grenadier from 1740 on it (despite the different timespans) but apparently may have material helpful to the time period. If someone here has this book, I hope they can share information on what - if anything - it has to contribute to our knowledge on the subject of the uniforms.
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; April 30, 2010 at 01:31 PM.
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  15. #95

    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    Well,I am brazilian,and while the portuguese from portugal can be a bit hard to understand sometimes,I think I could help you with the translations...

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    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by D.Sebastian View Post
    Well,I am brazilian,and while the portuguese from portugal can be a bit hard to understand sometimes,I think I could help you with the translations...
    Thank you D Sebastian. I assumed Portuguese from both countries was an mutually intelligible as American/British English.
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    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by D.Sebastian View Post
    and apparently those come from the collection of the Museu Historico Nacional,altough I have already tried to search for the uniforms in the museum site and I found nothing.
    Some of them:
    ARQUIVO HISTÓRICO - Brasil

    ------
    Portuguese Grenadier (either late 17th century or early 18th century). The book suggests he is wearing a mitre
    Boicote, post 5103.
    Português (Portuguese) - Page 256 - Total War Center Forums
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    Last edited by Ludicus; April 30, 2010 at 05:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    New info on early Portuguese uniforms in India (1735-45). I have made this spreadsheet based on translations from the book (btw the 2nd entry is Reg do Coronel Filipe de Valadares Souto-Maior):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Some of them:
    ARQUIVO HISTÓRICO - Brasil

    ------

    Boicote, post 5103.
    Português (Portuguese) - Page 256 - Total War Center Forums
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    Thanks Ludicus though I already have those Grenadier images in the 200 Anos book. The problem is that they are from 1762. I am looking for pictures of the early Grenadiers - or some indication as to what their mitres looked like. The "300 Anos" book from Portugal confirms that until 1740, the Grenadiers used mitres and then switched to bearskins.

    KLA, some time ago I asked you in a PM if you had any idea of what the early Grenadier hats looked like, and you said something about having seen a model or something. Do you have a picture of it? Would be most helpful.
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; May 01, 2010 at 02:17 AM.
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  19. #99
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    and you said something about having seen a model or something
    I will try to find it.
    ----
    From Boicote, Portuguese grenadier, 1740.

    Last edited by Ludicus; May 01, 2010 at 10:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Portugal - Discussion Thread

    That's in the book too Ludicus. I know they used bearskins by 1740, but mitres before then. Hope you find the model. BTW, here is a picture from the internet of a Portuguese General the Duque de Cadaval:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; May 01, 2010 at 06:21 PM.
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