Faction Preview No 7: Sparta

[spirit_of_rob]

I already said the face has been replaced just not by the lambda

[Phaylanx]

i know i meant if they gonna wear sandals now? sorry if i confused you

[El Muerte]

yes the mid 5th century they changed to the lambda we chose to depict the Spartans as they fought at Thermoplae and the rest of the Persian Wars therefore no lambda

You totaly lost me now...
There was lambda on shields at Thermopylae.And after that it stayed on shields.So why no lambda?

I found this:
"Shield blazons were an individual's perogative, but when helots were armed as hoplites, they would have been provided with their shields by the state, not have bought them individually. The shields in fact would have been state propetry, not theirs, and therefore are likely to have been embalzoned with an emblem of the state. This would emphasize that the bearers were not individual citizens, but servants of the state."

YOU are right, there is posibillity that equals didn't used lambda on shields first, but when read about Thermopylae you realise that lambda was present there so in a time of Peleponesian War, lambda was widely spreaded in Sparta amnog all ranks, equals and helots.

But, Equals even if they wore /\ on their shields they are very easy distinguished form helots in many ways.
-1st They had much better equipment
-2nd They polished their equipment so much that enemy was in terror at the bare sight of those shiny helmets and shields.

That is a nice idea no? All units to have /\, but elite units can be separated form the crowd, if you make them shiny shields, and equipment and much nicer drawing of /\ ? What do you say?
Just an idea mate.....you guys have a final word

[Emcman333]

The Spartans look awesome.

[Dannath]

Can you release your redone Spartans, or are you saving them?

[Racer X]

There was lambda on shields at Thermopylae.And after that it stayed on shields.So why no lambda?

No, there were no lamvthas at Thermopylae at all, in the Persian Wars the Spartans wore designs depending on which "Mora" they were a part of.

The King wore a solar design sacred to Apollo (See my avatar).

Surrounding him were two bodyguards, who painted the Dokona (Sacred to Kastor and Polydeukes) on their shields, and wore olive wreaths over their helmets.

The rest of the Homoioi wore different morae designs.

Amyklae mora - Rooster design.
Elose mora - Bulls head design.
Pylos mora - Leopard design.
Geronthrae mora - Scorpion design.
Limnatos mora - Swan design.
Steniklaros mora - Boar design.

Most other homoioi wore the gorgon on their shields.

The lamvtha first came to use in the second half of the 5th century, long after Thermopylae. The reason is because the enemy could previously distinguish important members of the army (I.e. the king and bodyguards) as they all wore certain shield blazons. The lamvtha made it more confusing for the enemy.

Just a suggestion - the Neodomadeis hoplite shouldn't have the Pylos design on his shield, in fact he should probably have a lamvtha if he's wearing that type of armour (of course, I'm not sure how the redone units look like).

[Sir Francis]

Racer, what you say is completely opposite to accepted historical fact - it is clear from the primary sources that shield emblems were personal at this time - they certainly did not depend on moira!

Please state where you got your information.

[strikerjd]

The King wore a solar design sacred to Apollo (See my avatar).

Surrounding him were two bodyguards, who painted the Dokona (Sacred to Kastor and Polydeukes) on their shields, and wore olive wreaths over their helmets.

The rest of the Homoioi wore different morae designs.

Amyklae mora - Rooster design.
Elose mora - Bulls head design.
Pylos mora - Leopard design.
Geronthrae mora - Scorpion design.
Limnatos mora - Swan design.
Steniklaros mora - Boar design.

Most other homoioi wore the gorgon on their shields.

can you say where do you find this informations ?

[El Muerte]

Im wondering the same thing.

[Wolfshead]

Sounds very interesting, please tell how you know.

[MoPeY]

i think these are possible some of the best spartan units ive seen around, i can hardley wait for the day that they're released. Good job guys

[Shqiponja_Hayabusa]

Can everybody do nothing else but admire and cry for these spartans cuz they dont exist anymore.

[hacon]

The first mention of the Mora in the classical sources is by Xenophon describing events just after the Peloponnesian War.
Thucydides when describing the Spartan army that fought at the battle of Mantinea in 418 BC gives lochoi as the largest formation. Herodotus also says that the Spartan army at Plataea was formed of 5 lochoi not mora.
As 'Sir Francis' says the classical evidence says that at the time of the Persian Wars individual shield designs were used.
If there were some shield design common to each mora at this time surely they would have been based on the 5 villages that made up the polis of Sparta as Herodotus implies (the lochos of Pitane) rather than split by Laconian perioicic towns (Geronthrai?) and Messenian geographic locations (Stenyklaros?).
Although I think 'Racer X' may be thinking more asthetically along game lines.

[Racer X]

The information was given to me by Stefanos Skarmintzos, who happens to be an expert on Spartan heraldry. The information he has gathered mostly from the blazons discovered in Artemis Orthia temple, though there are many other sources, you may be able to talk to him if you want more information.

As 'Sir Francis' says the classical evidence says that at the time of the Persian Wars individual shield designs were used.

Individual to an extent, but themed. The 'mora' does not just applied to a lamvtha.

The 'personal' design concept probably disappeared early 6th century.

[Sir Francis]

I am familiar with R. M. Dawkins' (head archaeologist of the project) The Sanctuary of Artemis Orthia at Sparta as well as other documentation from the dig, and there is no information like this.

Perhaps he got some ideas from there, but I think it's clear your friend has made the information up (nothing wrong with that, for fictional purposes, but such info shouldn't be presented as historical fact).

"The 'personal' design concept probably disappeared early 6th century."

There are references to personal semata in the 5th and 4th century literature. For example: an anchor, a life-sized fly, Eros, etc. Also, the many depictions we have of shields show hoplites, incl. Spartans with various semata.

Also you've ignored Hacon's point about the structure of the Spartan army; it is highly unlikely the moira existed at the time of the Persian Wars. This would make the theory you presented untenable.

[El Muerte]

Hoplite Shield Devices by Nicholas Sekunda :

Nicholas Sekunda was born in 1953. After studying Ancient History and Archaeology at Manchester University, he went on to take his Ph.D. in 1981. He has taken part in archaeological excavations in Poland, Iran and Greece, participated in a research project on ancient Persian warfare for the British institute of Persian Studies. He has published numerous books and academic articles, and is currently teaching at the Institute of Archaeology and Ethnology in Torun, Poland.



"As well as religious symbols the Greeks also used the initial letter of their state as a shield device. The most famous and feared of these was the letter lambda for Lakedaimon. The first attested use of this device comes in a fragment of Eupolis preserved by Photius, an extremely deeply read Byzantine scholar of the ninth century. His Lexicon was compiled from earlier dictionaries. Under the letter lambda we have the following information: 'The Lakedaimonians painted a lambda onto their shields while the Messenians painted an M — Eupolis.' Eupolis was an Athenian comedy writer whose first play was produced in 429 BC. He died some time after 415 BC 'in the Hellespont, during the Peloponnesian War' according to an entry in another Lexicon (by Suidas). We know that at least one of his plays dealt with the Mantineian campaign of 418 BC. Consequently it has been suggested that the fragment refers to the battle of First Mantineia."

and also :

"The use of letters as state shield devices may have derived from their use on the shields used in the hoplitodromos (hoplite race). This was introduced at the games in Olympia in 520 BC and Delphi in 498 BC as a result of initial Greek contact with Persian archery. The race was originally run over a distance of 400 metres, which equated to the 'beaten zone' covered by the enemy archers which the hoplites had to charge over to engage with the Persian line, as described by Herodotus in his account of the battle of Marathon in 490."

So we can see clearly from this text that /\ insignia WAS indeed used during Peloponnesian war....and mabye even earlier.....

[spirit_of_rob]

Idont have the specilised knowledge of Spartan shields i just said what the history boffins have told me. Lupus one of the main source of info on our Sparta is away so if you want an argument better than "There was no lambdas, so there" you will have to wait

[Sir Francis]

El Muerte,

Look at what the discussion is about.

Nobody disagrees that the Lambda may have been in use in the Peloponnesian War. The evidence that has been cited against its use is for the Persian Wars period.

Sekunda is not what one would call a secure source. Like most Osprey writers, his audience is amateur historians and wargamers; thus there is much exaggeration and speculation in his work, often presented in such a way that more weight is given to them than they warrant.

Let's have a look:

"The use of letters as state shield devices may have derived from their use on the shields used in the hoplitodromos (hoplite race). This was introduced at the games in Olympia in 520 BC and Delphi in 498 BC as a result of initial Greek contact with Persian archery. The race was originally run over a distance of 400 metres, which equated to the 'beaten zone' covered by the enemy archers which the hoplites had to charge over to engage with the Persian line, as described by Herodotus in his account of the battle of Marathon in 490."

Look at the red part, is it relevant, is it evidence for anything apart from the nature of the races? No. But it's a clever way of stating a reasonable fact and slipping in a date and a primary source. 400 metres? Right, so they must have had letter-semata; Marathon? Herodotus? - so of course there must have been lambdas on Spartan shields.

The whole sentence starts with complete speculation; he doesn't even say why he thinks letter semata may have been introduced then.

So, speculation, followed by irrelevant dates and info = what?

Of course, there's nothing wrong with speculation in itself, but if one presents it like facts, or at least likelihoods, one is doing one's readers a disservice.

[Snevets]

Can everybody do nothing else but admire and cry for these spartans cuz they dont exist anymore.

Well that's not true- this version still exists albeit with some slight changes. We just decided that even these weren't good enough so they're being further remade now. If you guys want we can release these to the public when the mod is done, so they're not lost to you.

[MoPeY]

sounds good , i was about to go nuts when i saw that post, i must have missed something inbetween the endless posts about shield designs.