Liby Phoenicians rock, lancearii? *smh*

[chomskola]

I have noticed that liby phoenician spear men, the early ones seem to outperform many other units. When you look at the animation, they are incredibly dense, i dont know any unit that is more densely packed, is this making them somehow almost invincible? They seem to fare a lot better than greek hoplites though basically the same type of unit and I think the hoplite have better morale...anyone else noticed this? IM playing as carthage and it is 205 BC. 2nd point is that LAncearii seem to massively underperform. Their charge frequently comes to nought and in melee they seem to get cut down in droves by merely ordinary infantry and cavalry. Am i missing something here? The citizen cavalry and liby p's seem to charge better, be quicker, and cheaper, dont make no sense!!!

[Lansa]

I always thought of the Lancearii as the poor man's cataphracts. Playing as Kart-Hadast I found them underwhelming, and against them as the AS I defeated an entire unit with a unit of Illyrioi Hippeis

[athanaric]

It's possible that your cavalry charge was negated by some bug or that you didn't form up the unit properly before charging.

[chomskola]

I still dont understand why their armour appears to be made from some form of butter

[Boriak]

I also noticed that Lanceari are not as good as anticipated. Curisi are cheaper and don't get tired as fast. But I'm a fan of pretty units and Lanceari certainly qualify. Perhaps I need to practice with them more.

[TWWolfe]

you do NOT ever leave cavalry stuck in a melee scrum. they have incredibly low base attack, thier purpose is to charge, pull back and then repeat ad nauseum.

And most of the hoplite type-units are very good. even the basic levy hoplites can hold a line very well, at least in part to thier dense formation.

[Ferdiad]

Lots of cav have the AP attribute and 30+ so it's idiocy to use them for any other job.

[Entropy Judge]

I have noticed that liby phoenician spear men, the early ones seem to outperform many other units. When you look at the animation, they are incredibly dense, i dont know any unit that is more densely packed, is this making them somehow almost invincible?

They actually have a slightly *looser* formation than Classical Hoplites (and the same formation as Massalian Hoplites), so I doubt it's the formation.

2nd point is that LAncearii seem to massively underperform. Their charge frequently comes to nought

It's been said, but you might be getting some kind of interruption that's preventing the Charge from being fully effected. In any case, something that was said in another thread was that, essentially, Elite units are frequently little more than an excuse to spend money. Curisi, for example, are a *lot* cheaper than Lanceari, and somewhat worse stats overall, but are more than sufficient for the purpose of breaking enemy units. Liby-Phoenician Cavalry are actually better than Curisi, for that matter, although they only have "Hardy" and not "Very Hardy."

[Spike]

I want to bet you play on H/VH battle and go against Kart-Hadastim

[athanaric]

In any case, something that was said in another thread was that, essentially, Elite units are frequently little more than an excuse to spend money."

There is another factor that isn't really represented in the game: in real life, (most) elite units would be much quicker to follow orders, especially complex ones.

[chomskola]

Hmmm...in what sense do classical hoplites have a tighter formation?certainly not visually.perhaps the fact that liby phoenicians are faction troops has some bearing on it. As for not leaving cavalry in melee,come on,while its true that most cavalry cant handle ,there are a few units that hold their own and even chew up decent infantry eg- sacred band,brihentin,heavy greek general etc.my point was why do lancearii seem to fare so "relatively" badly?

[chomskola]

@Entropy,what effect does the hardy attribute have?

[athanaric]

As for not leaving cavalry in melee,come on,while its true that most cavalry cant handle ,there are a few units that hold their own and even chew up decent infantry eg- sacred band,brihentin,heavy greek general etc.my point was why do lancearii seem to fare so "relatively" badly?

Lanceari have rather average defence skill and low stamina, so that could be part of it. And maybe you're using them against enemy units that are bugged. Iberia has lots of skirmisher types and many of them (for example Iabarannta) have spears, which makes them somewhat decent vs cavalry. This combined with the skirmishing bug (cavalry can't execute a proper charge against units that are set to skirmish mode), and the loose formation bug (units attacking a unit that is set to loose formation and skirmish mode will suffer an unrealistc amount of casualties) might explain your experience. Try using Lanceari against heavy infantry or cavalry and leave the light troops to your swordsmen and light cavalry (BTW, Gallic or Ilergetan longswordsmen work wonders against Iberian units).

"hardy" (on the unit card: "good stamina") means a unit has extra stamina. "very hardy" indicates the highest possible stamina value (found in most light units).

[Entropy Judge]

Hmmm...in what sense do classical hoplites have a tighter formation?certainly not visually.

type hellenistic infantry hoplitai
dictionary hellenistic_infantry_hoplitai ; Hoplitai
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type General_1
soldier hellenistic_infantry_hoplitai_hellenikoi, 40, 0, 1.22
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest
formation 0.7, 1, 1.6, 2.4, 4, square

type carthaginian infantry dorkim leebi-feenikim meshoorianim
dictionary carthaginian_infantry_dorkim_leebi_feenikim_meshoorianim ; Dorkim Leebi-Ponnim Mesoorianim
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type General_1
soldier carthaginian_infantry_libyphoenicianinfantry_syracusanhoplites, 40, 0, 1.22
officer ebofficer_lusitanian_carthaginian_officer
mount_effect elephant -1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, mercenary_unit
formation 0.76, 1, 2, 2.4, 4, square

As you can see, the Hoplitai have a tighter formation than the Liby-Phoenicians.

perhaps the fact that liby phoenicians are faction troops has some bearing on it.

Hoplitai are Factional troops as well.

there are a few units that hold their own and even chew up decent infantry eg- sacred band,brihentin,heavy greek general etc.my point was why do lancearii seem to fare so "relatively" badly?

Sacred Band have better Attack, Defense, Morale, and Stamina than Lanceari (and they're still not units that I'd say "chew up" most mid-tier infantry). In particular, they've got slightly less Armour and more Skill than Lanceari, and if you're up against AP units, that makes a difference. Both flavours of Brihentin tend to go down pretty quickly in any sort of prolonged melee in my experience, and while I'm not terribly expert in Somatophylakes Strategou, I also haven't had any real difficulties in bringing them down once they stop running away from my men (although I tend to bring them down more frequently by engaging them with one cavalry and charging with another, so ...).

[chomskola]

OK cool to see the stats, why the liby phoenicians seem to outperform the hoplites must have another explanation. I get you about the cavalry, ive seen even heavy calavalry cut down easily by heavy infantry, but ive seen the opposite too, ive seen brihentin and i particular greek heavy cavalry and sacred band stand around and tough it out as though they were heavy infantry, so perhaps other factors at play..generals bonus, position, tiredness, morale context etc ad nauseum. Its the problem with anecdotal evidence, there are so many factors to consider, the lancearii definitely dont seem worth it, very expensive, very slow, and its 50/50 whether their charge will work. In general i am confused how units can seem to be "better" or "worse" than their stats, since the stats ought to be the final word but appreciate the info Entropy

[chomskola]

Furthermore, 2 units of liby phoenicians, seem to be able to beat even heavy phalanxes quite comfortably, maybe because the low charge of the phalanx combined with relatively high defence of liby ps. I dont think Ive seen other units come through so unmauled, for example, neitos or scutarii can really really hurt phalanxes, but the neitos and the scutarii seem to suffer more casualties in the process? or maybe im not testing it in a testing environment and it is harder to judge than i think.

[Entropy Judge]

ive seen brihentin and i particular greek heavy cavalry and sacred band stand around and tough it out as though they were heavy infantry,

I've seen it occasionally (usually by the AI), but they never last any worthwhile amount of time unless they're up against levies or other light units, like meleeing archers or Camillan Hastati. Actual quality infantry tend to cut them down pretty quickly once they get surrounded. If they can keep that from happening (in a street, for example, where large numbers of cavalry keep infantry from surrounding individual cavalrymen) then yes, they can last for a decent amount of time.

the lancearii definitely dont seem worth it, very expensive, very slow, and its 50/50 whether their charge will work.

I'm pretty sure that I can reliably pull off charges with any of the cavalry units that have them (except inside cities), but other than that, you're pretty much right. Lanceari (and even Sacred Band) are pretty much just not worth recruiting. Stick with Curisi and Liby-Phoenician Cavalry.

Furthermore, 2 units of liby phoenicians, seem to be able to beat even heavy phalanxes quite comfortably, maybe because the low charge of the phalanx combined with relatively high defence of liby ps. I dont think Ive seen other units come through so unmauled, for example, neitos or scutarii can really really hurt phalanxes, but the neitos and the scutarii seem to suffer more casualties in the process? or maybe im not testing it in a testing environment and it is harder to judge than i think.

Which Scutarii, the Heavy Infantry or the Medium Spearmen? In any case, the Neitos should do the best against phalangites, whether it be in a frontal assault (bad idea all the way around) or conventionally (IE, flanking): Neitos have the highest Defense (12/3/10 vs 11/4/8 [LP] vs 10/3/9 [LS] vs 8/3/11 [IS]) and the highest Lethality at .225. After them, I'd put the Loricati Scutarii, thanks to their AP soliferra and their AP swords. Iberi Scutarii have slightly better Attack than LPs, and slightly worse Defense (smaller Shield), but also pack soliferra.

On the other hand, the LPs have the highest Mass (1.22) which lets them push more effectively, which can disrupt enemy formations (if attacking) or keep their own formation intact (if defending).

[chomskola]

Hoplitai are Factional troops as well.

They are not factional troops for CArthage are they? I thought they are not native?

[athanaric]

They are not factional troops for CArthage are they? I thought they are not native?

They are factional for the KH (and maybe Baktria and AS?). For everyone else, they're tier 3 foreign auxiliaries. And that's what makes them better than Liby-Phoenicians: Every faction (except for Saka, who get an improved version instead) can recruit them and they have an excellent AoR.

[chomskola]

don't they take a penalty for being allied troops? morale pentalty? anyway what are the pros anc cons of factional troops vs allied troops..does the level of barracks required to recruit allied troops have any penalties or bonuses, I noticed that some allied troops get experience bonuses.