Economy Blues

[chomskola]

205 bc,playing as carthage, have 60 territories. Net income per year is around 11-14k mnai. simply spinning wheels, cant really work on such low funds. There are a lot of level 4 governments in the empire, wondering if they should be replaced with level 3's wonder if it is hitting income. Garrisons are modest, 4-6 light units in most cities. There are armies and fleets, less than ten stacks, maybe 5 navies..still getting less than 1000 mnai on average per city seems tight. Am i missing something?

[athanaric]

Curious. I have a Roman campaign in much the same situation, where I make exactly ten times as much per turn.

Let's see...

Are your taxes set to "very high" (provided your citizens don't rebel of course)?
Do you manage every city manually (you should)?
Do you have capable governors everywhere?
Have you built paved roads everywhere and maxed out ports and mines?
Did you recruit a high number of elephants, ballistae, or ships (as in large stacks of ships, not the number of navies)?

An immediate remedy would be to reduce the number of Type IV governments. Allied rulers cost extra income and can have a negative effect on the number of your FMs. You only need Type IV in a few regions that are very difficult to pacify. As a matter of fact, Carthage can do very well without them seeing as you can build a tier 4 regional MIC with a Type II already (which means you should build the best government possible in Iberia, i.e. Type II wherever possible).

[Boriak]

Drop fleets, elephants, siege engines. Then build all the possible mines in Iberia.

I think Carthage is one of the few civilizations that profits from the huge port upgrades, especially in the Iberia/West Africa region.

[chomskola]

I envy your exchequer balance my friend:

Are your taxes set to "very high" (provided your citizens don't rebel of course)?- tax is maxed out according to public order
Do you manage every city manually (you should)?- yes
Do you have capable governors everywhere?- many of my guvnors seem to have terrible traits, such as stunningly incompetent-lack of schools perhaps?
Have you built paved roads everywhere and maxed out ports and mines?trying to build as many roads as possible, ports are pricier tricky, built loads of mines in a previous campaign and the actual income seemed to be a 1/4 of what i should be getting, not so confident about this one
Did you recruit a high number of elephants, ballistae, or ships (as in large stacks of ships, not the number of navies)?there are 2 units of elephants no stacks of ships..no, but enough navy.

I'll definitely take your advice on board, and curious to hear others ideas

[athanaric]

many of my guvnors seem to have terrible traits, such as stunningly incompetent-lack of schools perhaps?

Yes, you need schools. At least the lowest tier. They don't offer any law bonus like in Vanilla, but give very valuable traits and ancillaries to your governors. Also, theatres provide good ancillaries for reducing unrest. In general, the law bonus is more important than the happiness bonus, though (because it cuts down corruption). Try to build temples of Baal-Hammon in outlying regions, because they provide a big law bonus.

trying to build as many roads as possible, ports are pricier tricky, built loads of mines in a previous campaign and the actual income seemed to be a 1/4 of what i should be getting, not so confident about this one

With ports, the "extensive" upgrades (the ones that cost 36k or even 64k) are not important. However some regions like Zeugitania allow for a "natural" tier 3 port, which should be built.

there are 2 units of elephants no stacks of ships..no, but enough navy.

That's OK. Doesn't seem to be the cause of your problem.

[Entropy Judge]

built loads of mines in a previous campaign and the actual income seemed to be a 1/4 of what i should be getting, not so confident about this one

Mines are interesting - the amount it says you should be getting in the Information (IE, the "+5000" or whatever it says for the Large Mines, for example) is either wrong, or the Annual income for the mine. You should build them regardless.

EDIT: I do have a Carthage save, apparently It's 231 BC, I have 30 Settlements, and I'm making ~15K per turn. That's with about 85K/turn being spent on Army upkeep, apparently. Income (in Faction Finances) was listed as 118773, Expenditures as 126794; all I know is I had 25739 at the end of one turn and 40118 at the beginning of the next.

Region List: All of conquerable West Africa, plus Augila. Spain, barring Numantia and the three northernmost provinces. Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, Rhegion, and Taras. Crete and Salamis. I also have Alexandria, but it's rioting because I took it and then left it empty, since my Army in the region is now besieging whichever city is immediately south of it. Bloody Ptolemies, attacking me for no reason ....

[Boriak]

For schooling, I usually build the best school in the capitol and send all my young ones there until they are 20. If they get into the family through marriage, they stay at least 2 years, no matter the age (though I tend not to accept anyone older than 40).

[athanaric]

About the mines - they are always worth building and upgrading. Especially those in Turdetania, Carpetania, and Mauretania.

Real mining income:

Mining income for EB, as per province:
1 mining site - 600 mnai basic mines, 1500 mnai upgraded
2 mining sites - 1200 mnai basic mines, 3000 mnai upgraded
3 mining sites - 1800 mnai basic mines, 4500 mnai upgraded

[Ferdiad]

Spain and Illyria are mine heaven.

[chomskola]

1 mining site - 600 mnai basic mines, 1500 mnai upgraded
2 mining sites - 1200 mnai basic mines, 3000 mnai upgraded
3 mining sites - 1800 mnai basic mines, 4500 mnai upgraded

These figures are per turn..per year?....any chance that some aspect of vanilla is screwing up the mining income?

[TWWolfe]

Spain and Illyria are mine heaven.

Anatolia too, don't forget it!

[Ferdiad]

For a Rome player that will come much later on in the campaign, that's the perspective I was talking about Illyria and Spain from.

[Entropy Judge]

These figures are per turn..per year?

Per turn.

[Bladvak]

I envy your exchequer balance my friend:

Are your taxes set to "very high" (provided your citizens don't rebel of course)?- tax is maxed out according to public order
Do you manage every city manually (you should)?- yes
Do you have capable governors everywhere?- many of my guvnors seem to have terrible traits, such as stunningly incompetent-lack of schools perhaps?
Have you built paved roads everywhere and maxed out ports and mines?trying to build as many roads as possible, ports are pricier tricky, built loads of mines in a previous campaign and the actual income seemed to be a 1/4 of what i should be getting, not so confident about this one
Did you recruit a high number of elephants, ballistae, or ships (as in large stacks of ships, not the number of navies)?there are 2 units of elephants no stacks of ships..no, but enough navy.

I'll definitely take your advice on board, and curious to hear others ideas

taxes: disband most garrison forces if the settlement is small. rule of thumb: one unit per 1500 people in the settlement. then set the taxes so that you have blue light for all of them (75-80% loyalty)

manage cities manually - checked

incapable governors? take them out of the cities and see if the income improves. if yes, keep them in battles.

infrastructure (roads, ports, etc) - build law-providing buldings. you, my friend, have a corrupt empire (see AS posts for more on how to handle corruption). LAW fights corruption. Also, if you have family members in allied states, that's a huge mistake.

elephants, ships and so on: if you don't need the elephants, disband them. you only truly need them if you want to conquer lands fast (barbaric lands, with low walls) best elephants for Karthage are in the west, somewhere in Morocco nowadays. you get Bush elephants with 2500 upkeep instead of the 4300 from Karthadastim. ships? use kerkuroi. siege engines? only if you don't have elephants and you truly need them.

want more personalized advice? post a save.

[chomskola]

Thanks for the advice, whats a corrupt empire? what is AS post? Anyone got a link to that>

[athanaric]

Thanks for the advice, whats a corrupt empire? what is AS post? Anyone got a link to that>

"Corrupt empire" meanst that your pronvinces, especially those farthest from the capital, are losing money due to corruption, whicht is caused by the absence of "public order through law" buildings.
AS is short for Arche Seleukeia. There are guides on this faction describing how you should manage a large empire.

[chomskola]

Oh right, I thought you were saying a certain amount of impostors creates a systemic problem in the empire at a high level. interesting. IS there any possibility that Carthage is Nerfed as a faction either by hardcoded Vanilla, or EB team, as I have played as Casse and Rome before and it was a breeze in comparison, Great Family Members and Exponential economy. hmm..could it be that because of Carthage's potential income, strategic position and Troop selection that there is some kind of balancing act going on? or am I now just paranoid.....

[athanaric]

Oh right, I thought you were saying a certain amount of impostors creates a systemic problem in the empire at a high level. interesting. IS there any possibility that Carthage is Nerfed as a faction either by hardcoded Vanilla, or EB team, as I have played as Casse and Rome before and it was a breeze in comparison, Great Family Members and Exponential economy. hmm..could it be that because of Carthage's potential income, strategic position and Troop selection that there is some kind of balancing act going on?

No. Every faction has its unique set of traits for governors and its unique building tree, but Carthage certainly isn't nerfed in EB. On the contrary, their ports and colonies generate more income and their regional MICs are better than anybody else's.