So there are sub-mods which allow player to restore "former glory" of some kingdoms:
-Height Elves
-Silvan Elves
-Gondor (new one)
-Arnor/FPoE
-OoG (in progres-Angmar)
Does anyone are working or there is a thread about dwarves, to form a strong Kingdom like in the Old Days? Or this is simply not lore accurate? In my opinnion it is.
Starting form retaken Lonely Mountain by Thorin and company. Estabilish new kingdom of Erebor by Dain. In future they wanted to try retake Moria (Khazad-dum).
I'm just simply wondering if it is possible.
What do You think?
Well, in the game there are all sorts of nice rewards for retaking Gundabad and Kazad Dum. However, it probably isn't necessary to go all the way and make them an entirely new faction. Still, if you wanna try it then good luck!
Sort of, in Baron Samedi's and in MOS you can find the Reforge the Anicient Kingdoms (or something like that) for HE and SE, granting bonuses and, IIRC, additional units if certain geograpichal areas are recaptured (were they who were first with the Smiths of Eregion-feat I think).
But something for Dwarves? Not what I know.
For lore you have notes about what the Longbeards once considered their homelands;
for the Longbeards had spread southward [from Gundabad] down the Vales of Anduin and had made their chief 'mansion' and stronghold at Moria; and also eastward to the Iron Hills, where the mines were their chief source of iron-ore. They regarded the Iron Hills, the Ered Mithrin, and the east dales of the Misty Mountains as their own land.
- HoME 12; Of Dwarves and Men
And the urge to recapture Moria is obvious;
`It is now many years ago,' said Glóin, `that a shadow of disquiet fell upon our people. Whence it came we did not at first perceive. Words began to be whispered in secret: it was said that we were hemmed in a narrow place, and that greater wealth and splendour would be found in a wider world. Some spoke of Moria: the mighty works of our fathers that are called in our own tongue Khazad-dûm; and they declared that now at last we had the power and numbers to return. ... But now we spoke of it again with longing, and yet with dread; for no dwarf has dared to pass the doors of Khazad-dûm for many lives of kings, save Thrór only, and he perished. At last, however, Balin listened to the whispers, and resolved to go; and though Dáin did not give leave willingly, he took with him Ori and Óin and many of our folk, and they went away south. ...'
- FotR; The Council of Elrond
There's even a draft that they did, under Durin VII, even if only one;
Thus it was here that 'Durin the Last' emerged, and it is said of him that he returned from Erebor to Moria and re-established it (as is said in the accompanying genealogical table). To this my father never referred again; as Robert Foster noted in The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, 'There is no mention of a recolonization of Khazaddum in the Fourth Age, despite the death of the Balrog.' It is impossible to discover whether my father did in fact reject this idea, or whether it simply became 'lost' in the haste with which the Appendices were finally prepared for publication. The fact that he made no reference to 'Durin VII and Last', though he appears in the genealogy in Appendix A, is possibly a pointer to the latter supposition.
- The Making of Appendix A; (IV) Durin's Folk
@ Ichigorukia
Or you lend a hand
Last edited by Ngugi; August 29, 2013 at 07:41 AM.
I think If there would be 2-3 different dwarven kingdoms then they should manage an invasion by:
1. special (lore accurate) script (its perfect if there is only one dwarven faction in whole middle earth, what is anyway really anoying) to invade the old dwarf territorries time after time by a spawned scripted forces, like an rpg mission to take moria, end so.
2. or with an invasion caller loremaster: sometimes the human kingdoms can call for an invasion sometimes the elves and sometimes the lovely dwarfs. the other races should send only scripted spawned armies for some battles by rpg or circum... and so. I think it should work for every culture. It would be esier and not so mixed like giving gondorian culture for everybody, comon ppls its a bed solution for this problem. (I think this is the harder choice for the modders, and can work - if it can work - only if there is two or more different dwarf faction, especialy for dwarfs. and the abbility the have the invasion caller loremaster and the time of the whole invasion process need to be very perfectly timed, with strict begining end strict end and with always perfect timing. some special rpg events or/and some special circumstances need to be alive for the good rotations of the invasions calling power between the different races.)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
the captured special territories should work as a Resurrect Allied Factions script, example for the dwrafs of Moria. the invasions of the different races should have a goal not just about !destroying! a special lore important/based enemy settlement from the enemy but to ressurect a fallen alied faction as well. for the brotherhood u know
///3. After the death of mordor - example by the ring - there need to be a dark power who can call invasions and uniting the forces by it for the evil factions. The leadership of this uniting power should be by rpg and other circumstances amoungst the evil factions.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I hope the gathering evil forces mod are working about something like this as well, and the goal of ressurecting an fallen allied should have higher importance as well
Finaly last words: the rpg elemnts are the power of this game.
and I dont want to forget to give high importance of the siege weps in some custom settlements. welcome
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Last edited by begri; August 29, 2013 at 07:12 PM.
I think If there would be 2-3 different dwarven kingdoms then they should manage an invasion
In Perillicius Compilation Pack (PCP) there are 3 kingdoms, but in "clean" version we only have one. I dunno how to add them yet.
Good luck with this mate. I was planning on doing this but you beat me to it
Ichigorukia I didint said that I am going to do it neither I wont, my moding skills are as blunt as a goblin sense of humor.
I am just giving an idea
Maybe in the future i will be able to do it, I am reading all the tutorials on this fantastic page in my free time.
Thanks Ngugi for interesting last quote from The Making of Appendix A; (IV) Durin's Folk, Ive never heard that.
I think If there would be 2-3 different dwarven kingdoms then they should manage an invasion by:
1. special (lore accurate) script (its perfect if there is only one dwarven faction in whole middle earth, what is anyway really anoying) to invade the old dwarf territorries time after time by a spawned scripted forces, like an rpg mission to take moria, end so.
2. or with an invasion caller loremaster: sometimes the human kingdoms can call for an invasion sometimes the elves and sometimes the lovely dwarfs. the other races should send only scripted spawned armies for some battles by rpg or circum... and so. I think it should work for every culture. It would be esier and not so mixed like giving gondorian culture for everybody, comon ppls its a bed solution for this problem. (I think this is the harder choice for the modders, and can work - if it can work - only if there is two or more different dwarf faction, especialy for dwarfs. and the abbility the have the invasion caller loremaster and the time of the whole invasion process need to be very perfectly timed, with strict begining end strict end and with always perfect timing. some special rpg events or/and some special circumstances need to be alive for the good rotations of the invasions calling power between the different races.)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
the captured special territories should work as a Resurrect Allied Factions script, example for the dwrafs of Moria. the invasions of the different races should have a goal not just about !destroying! a special lore important/based enemy settlement from the enemy but to ressurect a fallen alied faction as well. for the brotherhood u know
Easier is easy to say
Crusades [called 'Invasions' in TATW] and Jihads [called 'Tôl Acharn' in DCI] are hard coded matters.
To be able to join an Invasion the faction must have religion catholic [called 'Followers of Melkor' in TATW].
To be able to join a Tôl Acharn the faction must have religion islam [called 'Dwarves' in TATW and 'Dúnedain' in DCI].
This can not be changed, unless you start to recode the M2 engine, and that's illegal.
DCI don't make non-islamic (Northmen) factions islam/Dunedain because it's fun or we were lazy, but because it's the only way to let them join - without making all of them the same religion all of the time, as with the catholic/Follower factions.
When DCI enabled non-islamic factions to during a period turn islam to be able to join, and not causing unrest havoc to boot, this was a great accomplishment due to skilled scripters discussions, tests and scripting, and to my knowledge it have not been done [intentionallly at least] before.
A single faction that is catholic or islam is all that is technically needed for the game to have functional crusade or jihad ingame; but it loses much of the purpose naturally.
An alternative that should be possible is to make no faction islam from scratch, call it something generic ingame like "Defenders of the West" and let the factions intended to be able to call and join jihads turn into islam during needed periods, from whatever they usually are, to not make islam a race-specific religion/"culture".
As a second alternative if Dwarves are in focus make them islam as in TATW, and give any other faction that should be free to join Dwarven culture during the duriation of the jihad.
Whatever would be the choice it require lots and lots of coding, and both massive and advanced scripts; and much, much more so if the former alternative is intended.
Originally Posted by begri
///3. After the death of mordor - example by the ring - there need to be a dark power who can call invasions and uniting the forces by it for the evil factions. The leadership of this uniting power should be by rpg and other circumstances amoungst the evil factions.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I hope the gathering evil forces mod are working about something like this as well, and the goal of ressurecting an fallen allied should have higher importance as well
For such an idea, with a successor of Sauron, you may use the generally completly unknown backstory to Rhûn in TATW. There it's said that Alatar, one of the two Blue Wizards, joined Sauron and created the Dragon Cult [a.k.a Loke-Khan with its golden Loke-X Rim units]. They don't push the story much in TATW, presumably since its a big stretch of fan fiction, but some foundation there is:
"I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south, .... Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.
- Letter 211 from 1958
That is in opposition to a later note about them (and concerns another theory about when they came at all), but it's really up to the modders to choose what they want for their mod, and if to go with TATW's choice.
They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and the Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the East ... who would both in the Second Age and the Third Age ... otherwise outnumber the West.
~ HoME 12; Last Writings; The Five Wizards
@ Moveric
No pro'
Last edited by Ngugi; August 30, 2013 at 07:55 AM.
I would only do one dwarven faction, but I like the idea of making them have an event of reforging an ancient kingdom. Its something to strive forward to, which the dwarves don't really have atm. I always feel kind of... unsatisfied when I reclaim moria, gundabad, the misty mountains etc and not have anything to show for.
I would only do one dwarven faction, but I like the idea of making them have an event of reforging an ancient kingdom. Its something to strive forward to, which the dwarves don't really have atm. I always feel kind of... unsatisfied when I reclaim moria, gundabad, the misty mountains etc and not have anything to show for.
Yes, I feel the same, thats why I came here with my suggestion
I hope that someday someone (maybe even me) will be able to do such mod.
Reading the post above about the Jihad/Tol Acharn and Crusades/Ivasions something came to my mind. Now i don't know much about modding at all so this could mean absoultly nothing but i was think that in the Kingdoms Expansion Americas Campaign the apaches could call what i think were called warpaths to claim regions. So i am thinking that in theory you could put their religon in and rename it something dwarvish but of course i don't know much about modding so it might not work that way.
Reading the post above about the Jihad/Tol Acharn and Crusades/Ivasions something came to my mind. Now i don't know much about modding at all so this could mean absoultly nothing but i was think that in the Kingdoms Expansion Americas Campaign the apaches could call what i think were called warpaths to claim regions. So i am thinking that in theory you could put their religon in and rename it something dwarvish but of course i don't know much about modding so it might not work that way.
AFAIK the Warpath were actually the Jihad, just renamed; imams were re-named shamans (or something alike), Jihad ingame were called Warpath etc; just as crusades in TATW is called Invasions and Jihads in DCI is called Tôl Acharn.
Both when it comes to crusades and jihads settlements can be high lighted to be prioritised targets for a crusade/jihad, but at end it will never be limited to such targets, only that those will be presented to a player more often (when not in the hands of a catholic/islam faction) and is the most presumable targets for the AI.
Never fear to put foreward a consideration, as if we never ask, we never learn
An alternative that should be possible is to make no faction islam from scratch, call it something generic ingame like "Defenders of the West" and let the factions intended to be able to call and join jihads turn into islam during needed periods, from whatever they usually are, to not make islam a race-specific religion/"culture".
Originally Posted by Ngugi
As a second alternative if Dwarves are in focus make them islam as in TATW, and give any other faction that should be free to join Dwarven culture during the duriation of the jihad. Whatever would be the choice it require lots and lots of coding, and both massive and advanced scripts; and much, much more so if the former alternative is intended.
1. I had think about it, the first alternative with defender of west(islam) would be the best, so in this case the joiners to the jihad will have islamic culture(defender of the west) from the beggining to the end of the Jihad, and as I said the goal of tol ancharn should have or the exterminate and destroy an enemy settlement or to ressurect a fallen faction or help to recapture a fallen alied key settlement (but I dont know that the extermination goal is moddable or not, but the meklor/catholic crusades should have the extermination goal as well if they attack the enemy) - but this is just an alternative solution for Tol Acharn, and not a solution for dwarfs to resurect their fallen kingdoms of Moria for dwarfs. 2. An other option a dream option, what is maybe impossible, to made a neutral name for the islam culture name TôlAcharn(Vengeance Comes) for the jihad culture would be almost perfect if it is about dwarfs, mans or elfs as well. And as i write the calling of the Acharn should be accesible for almost every good faction in the game, by circumstances and by rpg quest. Maybe differnet caller different option for the other allied factions (giving cash or giving some free units under the caller command) - yeah a rotation based "jihad" would be exellent an in most case the other cultures as well (example for dwarfs to resurect Moria) the joiners will give some free upkeep units until the end of the jihad, like it is in the diplomatic meetings script, what is anyway much better solution for joining the good forces of midle earth then the DCI with gondorian culture changes for every joiners. 3. AS I said with the gathering darknes and the call of mordor mods. Same here with the DCI and with the diplomatic meetings. These two mods should suplemented each others.
I put this conversaiton under the DCI thread.
Last edited by begri; September 02, 2013 at 06:36 AM.
1) Why exterminate? Don't know if it can be forced anyhow, but even if it may both jihads and crusades are blunt tools, targets can not be decided, only encouraged. In both theory and practice the taget may become a settlement lost to the enemy a turn or two ago, meaning it's filled with your own/the conquering factions loyal population already (Yeay, liberty!) and then it's just bad to have them massacred (Bad liberty, bad!).
If a player want to exterminate it should remain their choice, not something forced.
Also it appears unnecessarily complicated, both what scripting and practice mean, to bring the jihad or crusade into a ressurection-feature. Baron Samedi created a ressurection script (MOS has one too?) without any jihad/crusade involved, simply focusing on what regions that have to be taken to bring back a dead faction, and it's much better then to let the player chose if he/she want to use a jihad/crusade to pull such conquest off or do it normally; the purpose with jihads and crusades are to capture regions anyhow.
2) My idea to call islam "Defenders of the West" is the same as yours to call islam "Tôl Acharn" here, just to be clear: to make it general and not one/some factions culture.
Sure it can be done, AFAIK, but the one to do it would have to be one hell of a tireless and skilled scripter to pull it off, being massive and very advanced.
3) Anyone is free to ask for permission to use DCI: Tôl Acharn for their mod(s)
* I note that I will remove the posts from the DCI thread, as this discussion do not actually concern the mod DCI:Tôl Acharn in itself, but are discussions on how to create another, new mod.
DCI's consious reasons to not let other than Dúnedain and Northmen join are explained in the OP, also the DCI-team won't create this kind of mod, we put all our energy and time into DCI: Last Alliance.
Last double posting in such a manner is not allowed, so the discussion would have to be limited to one thread anyhow hehe.
Last edited by Ngugi; September 02, 2013 at 09:00 AM.
Maybe not from tolkien (i didn't read everything of him yet...), but from some other books:
The Dwarves could try to restore "the former Glory", so having about all mountains in the north (also north-west and north-east, in fact the starting regions + the gundabad/misty mountain regions that seem accurate, depending on the exact map used).
as a reward maybe they could get a new building, some kind of "tunnel" through those hills.
This would be some fast movement-connection between two or more settlements, as if they connected two mines underground.
especially useful for lategame, since armies would have to march very far then, and building such tunnels would need much time and money (but might also get some more trading possibilitys).
Maybe it could be scripted like the ports work for the trading (dunno if thats possible/legal), spawn a little "building" just outside the town (at start "tunnel ruin" like "fishing village", later "tunnel" as "port"), and moving an army onto it might get you a popup where you want to travel. so let's say you could get from thorin's halls to erebor in about 10 turns.
the game would have to "remember" your army, then make it disappear, having you to pay the upkeep to some bandits or something, and respawn it 10 turns later at the tunnel at erebor.
Sure would only be good for human players, since the AI wouldn't use ist, but this would be a worthy goal to restore the dwarfen kingdom of old, while making the buildings expansive enaugh (and maybe only buildable at some size of settlement) wouldn't make it overpowered.
Also you would have to pay the upkeep, while you in fact have no power over the moving army, and if the settlement you're heading to captured while you travel, the tunnel would be destroyed and your army is lost.
Well, i don't know much about modding, (or close to nothing) but if this is possible, i would really like working towards it.
you could even put some more buildings in it, like the merchant wharf for the ports, you could put some waggons in the tunnel to "ship" more goods/trade with more tunnels.
I don't think tolkien ever wrote about something like this, but to me it would make sense, since many dwarfes prefer staying underground, why not traveling there?
a good idea overall (I mean adding a "restore ancient kingdom" for the dwarves too), would make things much funnier and has plenty of lorish justifications, only issue I think is that they should have two or more factions like in PCP or at least some special script that allows the line of Durin to incorporate dwarves from other kins (as always I try to bring lore into mechanics, I'm dull I know )
as for Terrorgnom suggestion: I believe that some sort of fast traveling script already exists (Withwnar?), anyway I don't see very realistic nor lorish for the Dwarves (or anybody else) to move leagues upon leagues underground, not at all
Well, the idea behind this was that, given some centuries, a large enaugh population of dwarves would put so many mines in a mountain, it would be far easier in that region to move through that then around or above. (that's the reason the fellowship moves through moria...).
So, having enough of them spread through adjectant mountains, why not connect them?
Also it is known dwarves used railroads and waggons for ore and stones they have to transport out of the mines, at least some unpowered ones which had to be pushed by dwarves marching alongside.
since dwarves aren't very fond of horses (wouldn't make much sence up in the mountains anyway) this might be some sufficient compensation for not having coaches in the matter of transporting luggage and goods from one settlement to another.
Okay, maybe from one end of the map to another might be over the top, but from one end of the misty mountains to another would make absolutely sense for me.
you could go the direct way, don't have to carry everything on your back, and don't have to argue with strangers (four legged, two legged or with pointy ears).
for me, as a stubborn dwarf who just one to do his own stuff, this would be the perfect way to travel.
I mean... they build whole cities underground, how ridiculous does this sound to us? and still... we do travel far, far underground (by train or car, either in mountain regions or in big cities the subway...), so why shouldn't they?
as a matter of fact having ONLY one gate in the underground cities was much more normal than having two (they opened Holling gate to Eregion only after that the Noldor established there, actually Moria had only ONE gate before of half of 2nd age, and it was founded thousands of years before; furthermore I don't have any hint or source of dwarves build underground highways in LOTR.
Anyway, apart from lore reasons, what you propose is no sense in general, I mean I can concur of building 10 or even 20 miles tunnel, but you know how much maintenance a tunnel needs? having hundreds of thousand of miles of underground tunnels (which is not house, mind you, because everybody uses to maintain his own house, while WHY maintaing a tunnel you use once per year?) is simply impossible, useless and not cost effective at all, IMO.
although I understand your point I won't like a thing like this, and if you mind about crossing the map, gather your money and buy yourself alliance and military access
Maybe add a feature similar to the Invasions the evil factions get. Think what happened after Thror's murder and desecration of his body by Azog. Such a feature, were it to exist, should give the Dwarves special units to represent the participants from other Houses as well as increased movement speeds (as is customary for M2TW).
It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it. Proud supporter and fan of Fourth Age: Total War
Maybe add a feature similar to the Invasions the evil factions get. Think what happened after Thror's murder and desecration of his body by Azog. Such a feature, were it to exist, should give the Dwarves special units to represent the participants from other Houses as well as increased movement speeds (as is customary for M2TW).
That's quite easy to do, as in TATW Dwarven culture is islam already, the only thing needed is to enable the imams really and it can work ASAP.
Could be good for a modder to know, or really anyone as anyone may begin to mod such a thing at any time. When I started DCI I was really green to coding, of this kind very much so (just ask Withwnar haha), but trough tutorials and a bunch of devotion I learned how to implement jihads for Men, and that was a far more complicated process than this would be
Dwarven Kingdom - Suggestion/Question
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Originally Posted by begri
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