The Campaigns Addon (for LotRTW v3.0+)

[Bardo]

Since we released the latest patch, I have been unable to play this game again, and I have hardly played other games either.
For some time I have been using linux in my pc, so I did not even have RTW installed. But recently I tried to run RTW under Wine, and it worked. Surprisingly, this mod also seems to work, just by executing:
wine RomeTW-ALX.exe -mod:alexander/lotrtw

I'm not sure how stable it will be, but I'll give it a try. I'd like to play at least some campaign as we released it, to remember a bit how it was balanced. Then I'll try to check your changes, if I can.

In terms of questions, I've pretty well picked through most of the coding in the mod a handful of times - so I do already know many of your secrets

Surely you already know more about the mod, than the little that I remember . I was just afraid that some of our odd "tricks" could have discouraged other modders from making their own submods.

[CapnDan]

Since we released the latest patch, I have been unable to play this game again, and I have hardly played other games either.
For some time I have been using linux in my pc, so I did not even have RTW installed. But recently I tried to run RTW under Wine, and it worked. Surprisingly, this mod also seems to work, just by executing:
wine RomeTW-ALX.exe -mod:alexander/lotrtw

This is encouraging, my small RTW side hobby is one of the main reasons I have not yet made the switch to Linux.

Surely you already know more about the mod, than the little that I remember . I was just afraid that some of our odd "tricks" could have discouraged other modders from making their own submods.

Study of the tricks was a great learning tool! On at least a couple of occasions I had wrestled with some problem due to apparent engine limitations or whatnot, and after three or four failed attempts just happen to find a bit of Bardo code that easily solved a similar problem long ago!

[Bardo]

I have been playing an isengard campaign and I'm starting to remember how our campaign was balanced. Let me play a couple of games with other factions and then I'll start checking your changes. There is no hurry about your latest version, I plan to be around for some time.

Study of the tricks was a great learning tool! On at least a couple of occasions I had wrestled with some problem due to apparent engine limitations or whatnot, and after three or four failed attempts just happen to find a bit of Bardo code that easily solved a similar problem long ago!

Thanks for that

[Bardo]

I just recovered access to my moddb account. Let me know when you want to upload your addon there. I'll see if I can give you access to the development group so you can upload it by yourself.

[Aexodus]

Hey Dan, is the 3.02 patch needed/recommended for playing with your submod?

Edit: Sorry I mis-read your instructions, it says right there . Cant wait to try it out soon mate

[CapnDan]

1. I remember that Umbar custom settlement crashed in campaign, and we were unable to fix it. I think it was related to placement near the coast or near a port. But I do not know if we tested to place it at other locations, because it is a pitty to keep it unused in campaign. I'll see if I can get it working elsewhere.
I almost forgot about it. Thanks for pointing it out.

I figured it wouldn't have been something so common as a simple oversight. Kind of glad I didn't try to do the thing myself, sounds like it would have been hours of work leading to only confused frustration.. If you do decide you want, at some point, to do another round of working on the mod and could parcel out some of the work, just let me know, happy to be involved.

2. There was a Balrog made by some submod or addon, but wlesmana never finished his own model. I remember to ask wlesmana if he could make a Balrog and Giant Eagle model (the only ones remaining in my wish list). He said no about the Eagle because it would have the same issues in game than the fellbeasts. He said yes about the Balrog, and he tried, but I guess he did not get a satisfactory result at the end.

There are a good number of mods out there (for M2TW in particular - here's one http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...by-Brevi/page4) that have a balrog model and might be generous enough to share. In terms of ingame implementation, I'd imagined something like a goblin's Army of the Dead (in terms of mechanic), either fully static (campaign) or with some mini-mission to set it free from Moria. Similar to your vision of Balrog ingame? Something better/else?


Another question, about fellbeasts: I've rather grown to like the slightly unpredictable nature of fighting them in the main game, makes them a genuine concern even for an experienced player. The only serious problem, i think, is that they are coded to be able to attack fortress doors but, due to the attack animation (and possibly damage rating?) can't ever knock the door open - which occasionally leads to needing to wait out the timer on siege battles. Any thoughts on options one might pursue to solve something like this?

[Bardo]

There are a good number of mods out there (for M2TW in particular - here's one http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...by-Brevi/page4) that have a balrog model and might be generous enough to share. In terms of ingame implementation, I'd imagined something like a goblin's Army of the Dead (in terms of mechanic), either fully static (campaign) or with some mini-mission to set it free from Moria. Similar to your vision of Balrog ingame? Something better/else?

Every unit model from this mod was made by wlesmana, and it does not feel right to me to try to introduce new models from other mods at this point.
I'm talking about the main release, of course I see ok if someone makes it as an addon, but I never worked with those files (unit models and animations) and it'd not be easy for me to try.

Another question, about fellbeasts: I've rather grown to like the slightly unpredictable nature of fighting them in the main game, makes them a genuine concern even for an experienced player. The only serious problem, i think, is that they are coded to be able to attack fortress doors but, due to the attack animation (and possibly damage rating?) can't ever knock the door open - which occasionally leads to needing to wait out the timer on siege battles. Any thoughts on options one might pursue to solve something like this?

I think to remember that the tool used to import custom animations to RTW format had this bug that caused a wrong alignment between the attack animation and the door. I think it is the same issue that makes it hard for the fellbeasts to hit units that are moving.
We tried to disable the ability of fellbeasts to attack doors, but it is somehow hardcoded (I think linked to use of elephant animation as base). If someone knows how to disable it, I will be glad to release the fix for sure.

If you do decide you want, at some point, to do another round of working on the mod and could parcel out some of the work, just let me know, happy to be involved.

There are some things in my ToDo list for v3.0 that I did not finish, and I'm trying to do it now, but I'm still not sure if I will be able to release a new patch or don't.
For example:
- Fine tune campaign balance.
- Redo problematic pathfindings of custom cities.
- Historical battles at Moria, Osgiliath, Black gates, and Battle of 5 armies.
- I'd also like to check all your changes for this campaign addon, and to copy those that I like, specially any bug fix. And I'd be glad to be able to talk to you when I start working on this, but I will need some more time before I can start testing them.

Something I do plan to do is an all-in-one pack that includes v2.0 + v3.0 + v3.02 in .zip format and without the .exe that is causing virus warnings. I delayed it because I did not want to replace the 2.0 installer made by wlesmana, but it is something I should have done years ago, before I left.

[CapnDan]

Every unit model from this mod was made by wlesmana, and it does not feel right to me to try to introduce new models from other mods at this point.
I'm talking about the main release, of course I see ok if someone makes it as an addon, but I never worked with those files (unit models and animations) and it'd not be easy for me to try.

Maybe it's just the thing for a bonus easteregg in the last version of Campaigns Addon... if I ever get around to finishing it anyway...

I think to remember that the tool used to import custom animations to RTW format had this bug that caused a wrong alignment between the attack animation and the door. I think it is the same issue that makes it hard for the fellbeasts to hit units that are moving.
We tried to disable the ability of fellbeasts to attack doors, but it is somehow hardcoded (I think linked to use of elephant animation as base). If someone knows how to disable it, I will be glad to release the fix for sure.

That would be a good fix to see. Now all we need to do is scour the internets for a models/rigging expert in need of a small hobby project... common forums, don't disappoint!

There are some things in my ToDo list for v3.0 that I did not finish, and I'm trying to do it now, but I'm still not sure if I will be able to release a new patch or don't.
For example:
- Fine tune campaign balance.
- Redo problematic pathfindings of custom cities.
- Historical battles at Moria, Osgiliath, Black gates, and Battle of 5 armies.
- I'd also like to check all your changes for this campaign addon, and to copy those that I like, specially any bug fix. And I'd be glad to be able to talk to you when I start working on this, but I will need some more time before I can start testing them.

Campaign balance (overall) was the main focus of what eventually became the Campaigns Addon, so it's possible this part is nearly done already. Also traits fixes, some sounds, and a few other things.

Four new HBs sounds like an awesome idea!

Something I do plan to do is an all-in-one pack that includes v2.0 + v3.0 + v3.02 in .zip format and without the .exe that is causing virus warnings. I delayed it because I did not want to replace the 2.0 installer made by wlesmana, but it is something I should have done years ago, before I left.

It would simplify the dl/install process of this still quite regularly downloaded mod to be sure!

[Bardo]

Campaign balance (overall) was the main focus of what eventually became the Campaigns Addon, so it's possible this part is nearly done already. Also traits fixes, some sounds, and a few other things.

Actually, if/when I make the all-in-one pack, I'd like to include your addon pack, if you agree, as an alternative option, but keeping v3.02 as default for now.
I'm not sure what is the best way to do it. Either to include the pack untouched with your instructions to overwrite the v3.02 files, or if possible (I have to test it), a mod for JSGME.exe, that can be enabled or disabled at will (same as spanish/italian traductions).

[CapnDan]

Actually, if/when I make the all-in-one pack, I'd like to include your addon pack, if you agree, as an alternative option, but keeping v3.02 as default for now.
I'm not sure what is the best way to do it. Either to include the pack untouched with your instructions to overwrite the v3.02 files, or if possible (I have to test it), a mod for JSGME.exe, that can be enabled or disabled at will (same as spanish/italian traductions).

Sounds reasonable to me. (and my pleasure I'm sure)
My main concern would be, I think similar to yours, that we would have to make it all as simple/clear as possible so there is a minimum of confusion when people use/install the mod(s).

[Bardo]

I agree. I plan to rewrite a bit the readme of the mod. And I'll include the info/help of your addon.
I'm also open to suggestions about the way to include this addon inside the all-in-one pack.

[Bardo]

Moved all the discussion about Shield's changes to a new thread.
People who enter here normally wants to read about CapnDan's changes. For Shield's changes, please use this other topic:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-s-addon/page3

[CapnDan]

So I'm just casually working away on last little changes for V2.7 (which itself is mostly just composed of little bits of polish here and there), and had a couple of thoughts I might like feedback on.

1. Elite Spears Formation Issues:
Most of the elite spear units in the mod have their formation settings reversed (ie. click 'loose' and they tighten up formation). This was done initially to counter cavalry attacks against those units in muliplayer but the major drawbacks are that most players will never figure this out (judging by the several times it has been reported on the forums as a bug) and that the AI will likely never be able to use it properly.

So, my thought here was to just give these elite spear units a slightly closer base formation and a not so loose loose formation. Just to clear up confusion and allow the AI to use these more effectively on a more regular basis


2. Invincible Sauron:
The Campaigns Addon already changes Sauron's battle invincibility from Mordor with 5+ settlements to being based on Dol-Guldur and Minas Morgul. But, I did find this makes it a bit too straightforward to eliminate Sauron and Mordor.

Some of my most interesting/exciting battles have been the ones where I engaged Sauron but forgot to take the required settlements to make him vulnreble, where I fired every arrow I had at him and sacrificed a handful of infantry units before I realized I couldn't beat him. I think I'd like to introduce this level of random chance to the game (and also increase perceived danger of Sauron) by adding in at totally random maybe 25% chance that Sauron be invincible in a battle.

Thoughts?

[Bardo]

Good points. In both cases, one of the problems is that this kind of things are not really documented anywhere in the mod.

1) You are surely right. In that case, I'd vote to just replace the tight formation by a standard loose formation. I'd avoid the idea of a "slightly closer base formation" because that would not be effective against cavalry and it'd be surely worse against infantry too (less chances to flank the soldiers of enemy units).

2) I agree that the rule of 5+ settlements looks a bit arbitrary. I don't remember if battle invincibility can depend on a random chance. If so, maybe the chance can be related to the number of settlements owned by mordor, so the less regions controlled by mordor, the less chances for Sauron to be invulnerable. For example something like:
1 region = 50%, 2 = 60%, 3 = 70%, 4 = 80%, 5 or more regions = 90% invincible

[CapnDan]

Thanks Bardo, for the reply.

For spear formations, I did some testing and there definitely seems to be some advantages to a closer formation in terms of defensive ability and staying power (ability for hold a line for longer), even just vs other infantry. I wonder do you happen to know if there is any hard coded penalty for being in 'loose' formation? Or does the penalty generate dynamically just based on unit interactions with each other? So far based on this I'm inclined to just leave the formations all as is - a small easter egg/quirk for longtime players to discover maybe.

As to Sauron's invinvibility, I've simply done the following in scripts and based on a quick little bit of testing it seems to work out just fine:

monitor_event BattleConflictPhaseCommenced not I_LocalFaction romans_julii
if I_SettlementOwner Dol_Guldur = romans_julii
;and I_SettlementOwner Minas_Morgul = romans_julii
console_command invulnerable_general Sauron
end_if

if not I_SettlementOwner Dol_Guldur = romans_julii
and RandomPercent < 33
console_command invulnerable_general Sauron
end_if
end_monitor

[Bardo]

The script looks good. I'm not sure if this chance of invulnerability is going to discourage rush attacks to try to kill Sauron early in game. But I like the Dol guldur requirement, it might do the job.

I wonder do you happen to know if there is any hard coded penalty for being in 'loose' formation?

As far as I know, it is based on unit interactions as you say, and I didn't test it enough to know if there is an optimal distance.

In my tests, when the formation is too loose, the enemy soldiers can break the first line more easily, soldiers of both sides end mixed, and that is not good for units with defense based on shield or defending skill bonuses. Neither it is good for units with low morale because they might be considered flanked/surrounded.

Tight formations are good to hold the position and stand against enemy charges, but they reduce the width of the unit, and make it easier for the enemy to surround the entire army, that is why I do not like them for AI armies. Another disadvantage is the attacks from monsters with area effect, or with projectiles.

However, if you have tested these elite spear units with closer formations and you noticed an improvement, then your suggestion might work better than the current setting. I like the idea that at least your addon includes this fix, for people who consider it a bug.

[CapnDan]

The script looks good. I'm not sure if this chance of invulnerability is going to discourage rush attacks to try to kill Sauron early in game. But I like the Dol guldur requirement, it might do the job.

Sauron's invincibility dependant on Dol Guldur (with scripted reminders to the player and everything) was one of the first things I'd puzzled on waaay back in the earliest versions of the Addon.

As for spear formations, I'll maybe puzzle around with it a bit and see what I can turn up.

[LittleDwarf]

I'm not sure if anyone is willing to still work on this, but I have a suggestion for two new units for the Dwarves. They actually were previewed by the original mod team at some point and I'm not sure why weren't they included. These are:

http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-lord-o...nits9#imagebox

http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-lord-of-the-rings-total-war/images/new-units8#imagebox

Also some special unit only recruitable at Moria would be nice. Maybe some warriors wearing elements of mithril armor? Khazad-dum is an ancestral home of the Dwarves and reclaiming it should give them something substantial.

[Bardo]

You are right about those previewed dwarven units, it is a pitty that they were finally not included in the last release, but I don't really remember the reason.

Sauron's invincibility dependant on Dol Guldur (with scripted reminders to the player and everything) was one of the first things I'd puzzled on waaay back in the earliest versions of the Addon.

I know, I know, but I did not test it to verify if it is enough to prevent rush attacks.
I'm playing now a campaign with this addon. I like most of your changes and I still plan to include it in the next all-in-one pack. I'll try to give you some more feedback when I finish my campaign.

[CapnDan]

I have a suggestion ...for the Dwarves...previewed by the original mod team.

I think the dwarf archers were never added because dwarves already have the hireling archers as well as axe throwers. So adding in the archers would be both kind of redundant in gameplay and kind of contrary to the lore already written into the unit descriptions (and who really want to have to go back through and edit unit descriptions, amiright?!) .

As for the hammer unit, is it possible that they simply became the basis for the new dwarf officer models?

I'll try to give you some more feedback when I finish my campaign.

Great! I'd surely appreciate it!
Are you on the modified main campaign or one of the provincial campaigns?