Ukraine and Crimea development thread

[Condottiere 40K]

Salty language.

[Roma_Victrix]

Salty language.

I totally didn't know John had his own show now! Sweet. Too bad I'm in the UK and not the US, so no HBO. I'll just have to settle for Youtube clips to watch his show. He was brilliant last summer when he filled in for Jon Stewart on the Daily Show. I swear it's like the new SNL; it breeds so much talent and launches so many different careers, including Steve Carrell's and Stephen Colbert's.

His segment makes a fantastic point, too. Annexing Crimea is going to do nothing for Russia but cause a financial drain. They're already bleeding money from the pullout of investors and more when the sanctions start to be felt. Since I'm not a sadist, I actually feel bad for the average Russian who's pocket book is going to be stung from this.

[Papay]

Win Win for Putin. Now Kiev will be forced to accept the federal sollution. This means a) Ukraine will not enter EU or NATO b) at some point the country will collapse like Yugoslavia and Russia will take the southern coast of Ukraine

[ElvenKind]

No, probably just some 19 year old intern who got tasked out to make the graphic and screwed up. People make mistakes

So, CNN puts his graphic coverage of a very important news in the hands of some 19 year old ? That's a very smart and MATURE move by them.

Same as Hong Kong being shown in South America by CNN.

Oh man, do you watch CNN?

[Geronimo2006]

Win Win for Putin. Now Kiev will be forced to accept the federal sollution. This means a) Ukraine will not enter EU or NATO b) at some point the country will collapse like Yugoslavia and Russia will take the southern coast of Ukraine

Why is Ukraine joining the EU a problem for Putin? It's not a military alliance. The US didn't stir up separatist movements in Quebec to force Canada into NAFTA. Russia needs to stop thinking of Ukraine as a vassal state that has to do what it's told. Member states are allowed to leave with 2 years notice under the Lisbon Treaty.

Now I want to return to Heathen Hammer's "Novorossiya" theme. As late as 1897 (link here) it was 52% Ukrainian and 21% Russian. So HH's representation of that territory as never being Ukrainian - at least culturally - is unhistorical. This was the case even after Catherine the Great moved Russian settlers there to counter that. Also as you can see, Kharkiv is not part of Novorossiya - despite Putin saying on TV that it was. Kharkiv was founded in the Cossack Hetmanate in 1654.

The city was founded by re-settlers who were running away from the war that engulfed Right-bank Ukraine in 1654 (see Khmelnytsky Uprising). The group of people came onto the banks of Lopan and Kharkiv rivers where stood an abandoned settlement.^[10] Some sources indicate that the city may have been named after the Ukrainian name for 'swan': kharka.^[11] Other sources offer that the city was named after its near-legendary founder, Kharko (a diminutive form of the name Kharyton, Ukrainian: Харитон).]

So Putin's arguments this is historically Russian territory is not true. It sounds very similar to what the British did in Northern Ireland with British settlers in the 1600s that led to the partition of Ireland in 1920 and decades of bombs going off in London/Belfast/Derry and thousands of sectarian killings. Importing this model to that region is terribly dangerous and destabilising and has particular relevance to me as a Southern Irish person. The partition held back the Southern Irish economy for decades because the British had built no infrastructure, 80% of the economy was in the North. 80% of our exports until 1972 went to the UK. Since joining the EU that has fallen to 20%. This is probably what Moscow fears. An economically independent Ukraine it can't control with import restrictions. I have placed a map of Novorossiya below. "Little Russia" was the Tsarist term for Ukraine.

[Nevins]

So, CNN puts his graphic coverage of a very important news in the hands of some 19 year old ? That's a very smart and MATURE move by them.

Same as Hong Kong being shown in South America by CNN.

Oh man, do you watch CNN?

I don't own a television so no. Once again you show that you have absolutely no idea how the world works, you think they pay some guy $80k a year to click drag where the flag icon is going to pop up? Do you think that CNN is unique in this aspect?

[pajomife]

So that means the war is now finally "official" or what?

I don't think so,everything calm in the new country.

[ElvenKind]

I don't own a television so no. Once again you show that you have absolutely no idea how the world works, you think they pay some guy $80k a year to click drag where the flag icon is going to pop up? Do you think that CNN is unique in this aspect?

Did no one check/verify his/her graphic BEFORE GOING LIVE?

If he/she was not sure where Eastern Ukraine is, we are in 21-st century and it's very easy to check that.

And yes, CNN is unique when it comes to showing geographic positions in the world, another example is putting LONDON in Norfolk!

[Nevins]

Did no one check/verify his/her graphic BEFORE GOING LIVE?

If he/she was not sure where Eastern Ukraine is, we are in 21-st century and it's very easy to check that.

And yes, CNN is unique when it comes to showing geographic positions in the world, another example is putting LONDON in Norfolk!

I don't work for CNN. I don't watch them, I don't read their website, I don't think they are a particularly quality news organization nor do I think they are some kind of standard representation of the US in any way. The only reason we are even discussing them is because of Alejandro or whatever his name is made a bit of a strange post and I called him out on it, but that isn't going to stop the usual suspects from spamming smilies and saying lol silly Americans by the standard Amerophobes

[Roma_Victrix]

Ameriphobe... That's the first time I've ever heard anyone use that word.

CNN does suck. It's no well kept secret. Joel McHale ripped them pretty good at the White House Correspondents dinner. The look on Blitzer's face was priceless.

[ElvenKind]

The only reason we are even discussing them is because of Alejandro or whatever his name is made a bit of a strange post and I called him out on it, but that isn't going to stop the usual suspects from spamming smilies and saying lol silly Americans by the standard Amerophobes

I think most of us here don't have anything against American Citizens, but rather US Government and its foreign policy. I have an American patron too, a fine fellow, and, a credit to your nation.

[Geronimo2006]

Elvenkind have you forgotten America saved your country in 1991-5?

[ElvenKind]

Elvenkind have you forgotten America saved your country in 1991-5?

How did US save my country? Please tell me.

[Geronimo2006]

How did US save my country? Please tell me.

They armed you so you could liberate Krajina.

[ElvenKind]

They armed you so you could liberate Krajina.

With what? With russian tanks, russian rifles, russian SAMs? They only gave us some tactical advice, intel info on few subjects and later political support, and their field operatives were following Operation Oluja/Storm from our Headquarters.

At the start of war in 1991 they were stil dealing with the end of Gulf War.

My countrymen saved my country, not US.

And besides, what does that have to do with US Foreign Policy in the last decade?

Is it the same one as the one in 1990-s?

[Geronimo2006]

With what? With russian tanks, russian rifles, russian SAMs? They only gave us some tactical advice, intel info on few subjects and later political support, and their field operatives were following Operation Oluja/Storm from our Headquarters.

At the start of war in 1991 they were stil dealing with the end of Gulf War.

My countrymen saved my country, not US.

And besides, what does that have to do with US Foreign Policy in the last decade?

Is it the same one as the one in 1990-s?

You had pretty much no tanks beforehand remember. I watched "The Death of Yugoslavia" on youtube and I recommend it to you for info.

[The Noble Lord]

They armed you so you could liberate Krajina.

You are right, before the start of operation 'Oluja', it was the NATO and primarily Americans that blocked systems of communication and operational command centers of the Krajina Serbs,
it was NATO airplanes that bombed Serbian positions and disabled its anti-aircraft units, not all of them but most of them, it was US officers that pretty much formulated the entire operation
and it was the US that gave final go ahead to the Croats, they could go in without fear of being bombed or even condemned by the "International community".

If the Serbs conducted operation of such magnitude, immediately the "champions of human rights and democracy" would be up in arms calling for bombing and "impending humanitarian catastrophe" and such.

That is why US and NATO became synonymous with hypocrisy and double standards, since then they have become a lighting beacons of any kind of immorality when it comes to international relations,
when it comes to the Balkans at least!

[ElvenKind]

You had pretty much no tanks beforehand remember. I watched "The Death of Yugoslavia" on youtube and I recommend it to you for info.

You think you know something about MY COUNTRY's war from Youtube videos?

I lived through that war daily with fear for my life and my loved ones lives, and I had survived it. Don't remind me or teach me of horrors of that war.

Were you present in Croatia during that war? You know more than me, or my father and my uncles and relatives who fought it?

@ The Noble Lord, it was even American soldiers in Croatian uniforms who kicked Serbs asses.

[Heathen Hammer]

Now I want to return to Heathen Hammer's "Novorossiya" theme. As late as 1897 (link here) it was 52% Ukrainian and 21% Russian. So HH's representation of that territory as never being Ukrainian - at least culturally - is unhistorical.

In the actual link provided in wikipedia Ukrainian was listed as variation of Russian. Plus there is a huge difference between Western Ukrainians and Eastern ones, who identified themselves as Malorossy and as a part of Russian nation. That is according to the link your provided.

This was the case even after Catherine the Great moved Russian settlers there to counter that. Also as you can see, Kharkiv is not part of Novorossiya - despite Putin saying on TV that it was. Kharkiv was founded in the Cossack Hetmanate in 1654.

Indeed, too bad descendants of Zaporozhian Cossacks identify themselves as ethnic Russians. So no matter how you try to twist it around, historically it is Russian.

[Geronimo2006]

In the actual link provided in wikipedia Ukrainian was listed as variation of Russian. Plus there is a huge difference between Western Ukrainians and Eastern ones, who identified themselves as Malorossy and as a part of Russian nation. That is according to the link your provided.

Indeed, too bad descendants of Zaporozhian Cossacks identify themselves as ethnic Russians. So no matter how you try to twist it around, historically it is Russian.

That is following an intense campaign of Russification. In 1897, the Kuban Cossacks identified as Ukrainian/Little Russian and 42% Russian. Bear in mind the education system told them they were Russian and publications in Ukrainian were outlawed in 1875. But by the 1920s the vast majority identified as Russian.

The Nazis insisted Germanic languages were a variant of German.