Carthaginian Scutums

[il Pitta]

Thank you very much Fernando! It will be like playing with my fellow chaps XD

[JaM]

Actually, Hannibal was restricted to only sources he had in Italy, therefore he scavenged all armor and weapons he could get from dead Romans. Which means, Veteran Carthaginian infantry would be dressed/equipped in Roman Mail. We have some historical sources saying better equipment went to elite units first.

[fernando77]

I mean the chainmails of carthaginian style made by Meneros and include in original ( DEI ) carthaginian infantry, see it at the Meneros textures thread
and about roman swords on carthaginian infantry? what do you think?

The Romans got their swords from Iberians. Why wouldn't Carthage use them too, if they were good for the job?[/QUOTE]

Yeah that is why I included the falcata, iberian swords (early gladius), and roman gladius in the unit. Just updated to include more shields, may split them up and give the red scutums to the late libyan infantry and the white ones exclusively to the Carthaginian infantry later. Thanks for the feedback everyone.

[JaM]

From what historians wrote about Carthaginian army, Lybian and Carthaginians were equipped as spearmen.. i don't think they would suddenly change the tactics like that just because they have many swords from Romans. That would require much larger reorganization than what Hannibal managed.

[fernando77]

Actually, Hannibal was restricted to only sources he had in Italy, therefore he scavenged all armor and weapons he could get from dead Romans. Which means, Veteran Carthaginian infantry would be dressed/equipped in Roman Mail. We have some historical sources saying better equipment went to elite units first.

Exactly, although I still tried to give the infantry a Carthaginian feel to it so as to not totally confuse the player in battles with polybian romans

[JaM]

i know, funny thing is, even Romans were confused by them once, considered them to be their own just to be surprised...

[Marcus Flavius]

Excellent community full of ancient world lovers! =) i´m happy to see that in a forum! ( but i´m not sure about roman swords..not that ones, maybe yje new ones made by DEI, there galdius hispanensis would be gteat =). )

Thanks!

[fernando77]

i know, funny thing is, even Romans were confused by them once, considered them to be their own just to be surprised...

If only we could see it with our own eyes! Also, if it were possible I would have made the swords their secondary weapon with the a spear being their primary much like the triarii. However, with the Libyans fighting in Iberia for many years already, I would think that some of them would have become very adept using Iberian swords. I envision Hannibal's veterans being equipped like this during the 2nd punic war, using both spears (similar to the hastae) and various forms of swords.

[JaM]

definitely. every Triarii also had a sword. and they used it when their spears broken up. nice picture btw

oh, btw, one thing, did you know that only Velites that distinguished themselves in battle were allowed to wear wolf skin? just read it in "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars, 359BC to 146 BC" written by Duncan Head.

[Keyser]

From what historians wrote about Carthaginian army, Lybian and Carthaginians were equipped as spearmen.. i don't think they would suddenly change the tactics like that just because they have many swords from Romans. That would require much larger reorganization than what Hannibal managed.

But what kind of spears did they use exactly ?

If the hoplite theory is right, then it would be a dory-like one and would make them spearmen indeed. However we can guess at a hoplite panoply with certitude only for the time before the first punic war (the crimisos battle in particular).

However, if the longche was the main punic spear (at the time of the punic wars at least), its dual purpose (throwing, melee) would point toward it being more like a polyvalent javelin rather than a weapon to be used as a spear in every situation and so the punic "african" troops would be more like iberian or italian sword-and-javelin infantry rather than full spearmen imo.

But if the longche is often quoted, it is in Polybius writings usually related to light troops rather than clearly to the heavy infantry too...

I am not aware at all about the archeological findings regarding spearpoints in Tunisia or about the existing iconography...

[JaM]

yup, most historians mention Carthaginian spearmen using shorter spear than others.. i believe it was Polybius who specifically mentioned Carthaginian spears being shorter than Roman.

[General Grievous]

If only we could see it with our own eyes! Also, if it were possible I would have made the swords their secondary weapon with the a spear being their primary much like the triarii. However, with the Libyans fighting in Iberia for many years already, I would think that some of them would have become very adept using Iberian swords. I envision Hannibal's veterans being equipped like this during the 2nd punic war, using both spears (similar to the hastae) and various forms of swords.

Yeah! that's it!

[Marcus Flavius]

Yeah that´s what i said! please, include new textures of Gladius hispanensis and xiphos for Carthaginian infantry! not vanilla gladius, it will be great and more historical! =)

Thanks! love the idea of spears!

[fernando77]

But what kind of spears did they use exactly ?

If the hoplite theory is right, then it would be a dory-like one and would make them spearmen indeed. However we can guess at a hoplite panoply with certitude only for the time before the first punic war (the crimisos battle in particular).

However, if the longche was the main punic spear (at the time of the punic wars at least), its dual purpose (throwing, melee) would point toward it being more like a polyvalent javelin rather than a weapon to be used as a spear in every situation and so the punic "african" troops would be more like iberian or italian sword-and-javelin infantry rather than full spearmen imo.

But if the longche is often quoted, it is in Polybius writings usually related to light troops rather than clearly to the heavy infantry too...

I am not aware at all about the archeological findings regarding spearpoints in Tunisia or about the existing iconography...

I definitely see where Punic infantry would use swords more than previously thought, especially with the influences it had during their stay and conquering of lower Iberia. Also I was unable to find any spear points during my trip to Tunis last year, for shame

Thank you very much Fernando! It will be like playing with my fellow chaps XD

Anytime buddy, DM me if you include it in the preview of your mod happy playing.

[Ahiga]

Hey there Fernando77,

Would it be possible to utilize your submod in Lines of Battle? I've been working on the Carthaginians and your shield decorum for them blows anything I could try and cobble together out of the water.

Appreciate the fantastic work!

[fernando77]

Hey there Fernando77,

Would it be possible to utilize your submod in Lines of Battle? I've been working on the Carthaginians and your shield decorum for them blows anything I could try and cobble together out of the water.

Appreciate the fantastic work!

Sure thing Ahiga, after all I greatly enjoyed the first mod you made for the Carthaginians in response to my 'Carthaginian roster expansion' thread I had made a while ago. You are welcome to use them for Lines of Battle, including anymore scutum designs if I should make them in the future.

[Ahiga]

Terrific, thanks man.

[Marcus Flavius]

Any plans for the future Fernando? =)