AMAZING! Reconstructions of CONSTANTINOPLE

[Antiochus Seleukos]

"What is left" of the Byzantine era is an interesting, but complicated question. First of all, what actually *was there* to be left behind? For example, a vast brick Roman city will leave more traces behind then a small wooden fort. But more importantly, archaeologists speak of "formation processes" determining what survives the countless ages. Anything from the chemical make-up of the soil, to earthquakes, war or building projects can alter or destroy archaeological heritage.

A third problem is the amount of interest in Byzantine history. Most of the Turks I've met don't value their Byzantine past nearly as much as they should. Meanwhile, most western people are obsessed by anything Ancient Greece. A lot of money goes to excavating and preserving classical heritage. Byzantine archaeology, not nearly as much. I hope this is going to change in the future, as the public slowly starts to gain more interest in Byzantium.

For Istanbul, I don't really know for sure at all. But judging from stuff like the cisterns, that link of yours and comparable situations in e.g. Rome, I'd say there's a fair chance. Though most of it will not nearly be as spectacular as you'd hope. Bits of pottery, ground traces, etc.

As for the Anatolian cities, I think for example Ephesos shows us what is possible. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johanne..._%28Ephesos%29
(The medieval town nucleated around the Hagios Theologos)

For Smyrna, one archaeologist says:
(source: Clive Foss, American Journal of Archaeology 84.4 (1977) pp. 469-486; Accesable on Jstor for free if you make an account)

Also, a lot of Byzantine heritage actually survives, but just doesn't get as much attention as it should. My professor of Ancient Greek, for example, recently said: "Don't visit Sparta, there's not much to see there", blatantly ignoring it's home to something as phenomenal as Mystras. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystras (I wish I had the money to go here, lol )

Or for example, Ohrid in Macedonia, has a lot of churches built under the Bulgar Empire but clearly in Byzantine style. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_..._Sophia,_Ohrid and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Panteleimon,_Ohrid

Hi mate, I have visited all the Byzantine churches in Macedonia which is where my interest stems from (I am actually from Macedonia). My interest is really, however, in Turkey, as this was the very core of the Byzantine empire. By the way, in the link I posted about destroying an ancient byzantine wall, could you find any more?

Also, I want to add - the modern reconstructions of the Constantinople walls are absolutely ing disgusting. They could have asked a little baby to throw rocks at a wall and it would look better than this current situation.

I am optimistic that more of the Great Palace can be found, and maybe more of the hippodrome and some more buildings. I am optimistic for Istanbul's Byzantine future, but we need to care for it, most people don't realize what a great civilization those Byzantines were.



> I also ask for Sinope, Nicaea and Nicomedia - nothing remains here from what was apparently some of the largest Byzantine cities, especially Nicaea.

[dogukan]

I reckon there are two period a native of the city would say this place is ruined(no academic input here just my opinion).
The industrialization period staring in the 19th century, and proleterianization of the people. Traditional production relations succumbing to capitalist expansion from west, old artisans starting disappear especially with the finishing off of janissaries.

The second is the late 30s and onwards with the nationalist wave and dis-enchantment process of the minorities as well as increasing industrialization.
1950s marks the entrance of crony rant capitalism...since then, the city's history and beauty had been on a down-ward spiral.
And recently we are having a new wave of rant economy that turned the city into a concrete jungle.

But it is really difficult to say it is ruined because of this or that. It is really relative. Each generation as they get old will get nostalgic and blame the new generations. I know for a fact from movies that "how istanbul deteriorated and how beautiful it used to be" has been a common conversation for decades now

I stick to pre-50s when everybody was cool and you would not go out on the streets without suits. I reckon that'd be a great period. İstanbul is still a city, a trade center in the pre-capitalist sense rather than an industrial-financial powerhouse.

We have tons of songs in Ottoman Classical music for love of istanbul too.
One of my favorites, really gets the spirit of being an "İstanbulian" that is so rare nowadays. It is an issue of pride in istanbul to point to your roots going back a few generations. Many people in İstanbul are immigrants of 2nd or 3rd generation nowadays:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wswYjQHNUQ


also, this video shot in 1967 by BBC shocked people when it came out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF3s0C2f23I

People were like, whoa look at the city it looks so nice. But you also notice the levels of poverty. So there is a sort of trade-off unless you have a really rich state that can keep both beauty and sacrifice industrialization.

What interested me most was this picture though:


From 1940s, an anti-air battery on a minaret in Sultanahmet(I think it was Hagia Sophia)...just look at the architecture and the houses. Thats totally Ottoman. The video is 1967, about 25 years later. These houses are already rare. Nowadays, they are only in some areas as are countable by fingers.
Truely then, living in İstanbul in 1940s, you would still get a feeling of the anciety city.
The turn happened after 50s with the industrial growth...and since any location on istanbul was very valuable, rants sky-rocketed and people are still sucking the blood of the city today.

[Stavroforos]

I wouldn't say that Athens has ever been a very beautiful city in its modern form, but we used to have neoclassical houses everywhere. Now it's just ugly apartment buildings from the 1960s and the neoclassical buildings are all graffitied over thanks to those commies and anarchists

Istanbul is a beautiful city, but it's clear it was even more beautiful before modernity struck.

[Rinan]

Ah, modernity! I suppose that real-estate developers and warring presidents win from a bunch of odd antiquarians such as ourselves. It's a tragedy when you think how many beautiful old buildings have had to make room for ugly modern concrete.

The video is 1967, about 25 years later. These houses are already rare. Nowadays, they are only in some areas as are countable by fingers.
Truely then, living in İstanbul in 1940s, you would still get a feeling of the anciety city.
The turn happened after 50s with the industrial growth...and since any location on istanbul was very valuable, rants sky-rocketed and people are still sucking the blood of the city today.

dogukan, do you think this could have something to do with Turkey's desire to be modern, to "catch up" with the West (the legacy of Atatürk)? For example, the British are really proud of their heritage and like to protect it as much as possible. Maybe Turks see it as relics of a more primitive past that need to be done away with? Long live the modern shopping malls and high-rise buildings? Just speculating...

Hi mate, I have visited all the Byzantine churches in Macedonia which is where my interest stems from (I am actually from Macedonia). My interest is really, however, in Turkey, as this was the very core of the Byzantine empire. By the way, in the link I posted about destroying an ancient byzantine wall, could you find any more?

Stravo! I've been to Macedonia last summer, very beautiful country

Unfortunately I don't know what has happened to all the Byzantine cities in Anatolia. I often wonder the same about other ancient cities such as Antioch or Alexandria. Perhaps all the same fate as Smyrna, all in the ground under modern settlements, waiting to be excavated one day?

But... Imagine how much of the ancient city of Rome would've been destroyed if people didn't care about the old ruins from very early onwards. The coloseum, the fora, the pantheon... All that stuff is still standing because ever since the renaissance people really cared about those ruins. For example, in the 15th century medieval Romans excavated the body of an ancient Roman girl, and they were struck with awe. Or when they discovered Nero's Domus Aureus all the rich people wanted to decorate their villas in such a style. I think such an attitude of admiration really helps preserving heritage instead of replacing it with modern stuff. (http://www.medievalists.net/2013/11/...-15th-century/)

...Would the Nicaeans have been equally proud of their ruins?

[dogukan]

Errr, I don't know. I would not say it is Atatürk's legacy. I reckon it is an inevitable result of a "catch-up" economy. The industrialization happened really rapid here, it was not prolonged to centuries where things turned more slowly.
There was a sudden opportunity to grow,, invest and expand.

But the more American-backed style capitalism started developing in Turkey in 1950s when the conservative-right wingers were elected after the first democratic elections of the country.
They were more obsessed with "growth" and clientalism and rant I'd say. Since then, İstanbul pretty much had always been controlled by right-winger, growth obsessed corrupt people...besides the few anti-democratic military coups

I see it as somewhat inevitable that the city got ruined. Turkey's need for catching up and the sudden changes left no time for preservation. Only now, when th country's economy became solid, we see active preservation and reconstruction in the old architectural styles. But people are very hesistant about it. Because it still looks very modern and foremost it has already destroyed the indigenous social culture.
The reconstruction is being done in rant economy....also, we have tons of skyscrapers now that ruin the cities typical image with sea and mosques by the sunset.
AFAIK, we also hoave the biggest mall, and MOST malls in all of Europe in İstanbul.
The rant economy and american style capitalism is ruining anything regarding history and the local feeling of the city.

[Antiochus Seleukos]

It's a great shame, as you say, dogukan, that most of the city has been destroyed in maybe the last 50-60 years. Not just Byzantine, Roman, but also tons of Ottoman stuff, which is bad to see. As history is, well, history. Do you know how much stuff was destroyed? Any palaces, roads, Roman and Ottoman stuffs?

Ah, modernity! I suppose that real-estate developers and warring presidents win from a bunch of odd antiquarians such as ourselves. It's a tragedy when you think how many beautiful old buildings have had to make room for ugly modern concrete.



dogukan, do you think this could have something to do with Turkey's desire to be modern, to "catch up" with the West (the legacy of Atatürk)? For example, the British are really proud of their heritage and like to protect it as much as possible. Maybe Turks see it as relics of a more primitive past that need to be done away with? Long live the modern shopping malls and high-rise buildings? Just speculating...



Stravo! I've been to Macedonia last summer, very beautiful country

Unfortunately I don't know what has happened to all the Byzantine cities in Anatolia. I often wonder the same about other ancient cities such as Antioch or Alexandria. Perhaps all the same fate as Smyrna, all in the ground under modern settlements, waiting to be excavated one day?

But... Imagine how much of the ancient city of Rome would've been destroyed if people didn't care about the old ruins from very early onwards. The coloseum, the fora, the pantheon... All that stuff is still standing because ever since the renaissance people really cared about those ruins. For example, in the 15th century medieval Romans excavated the body of an ancient Roman girl, and they were struck with awe. Or when they discovered Nero's Domus Aureus all the rich people wanted to decorate their villas in such a style. I think such an attitude of admiration really helps preserving heritage instead of replacing it with modern stuff. (http://www.medievalists.net/2013/11/...-15th-century/)

...Would the Nicaeans have been equally proud of their ruins?

, I wonder if they will one day excavate Nicaea, Nicomedia and Smyrna, there must be a lot there.

With regards to Istanbul, I heard that UNESCO almost took them off world heritage list because they always destroy Byzantine monuments when digging

http://eu.greekreporter.com/2014/08/...ned-into-dump/

Where's this tomb?

[Antiochus Seleukos]

Does anyone know in general which palaces were destroyed in the last 100 years (from the Ottoman period)?

[dogukan]

Yea the short-term gain capitalism does not really act picky when it comes to what to destroy.
I cannot really tell how much stuff is destroyed now, its a process thats been going on for decades. The reason things get destroyed easily is because they are not official. Basically, a very old piece had been standing there and is being used for daily life for centuries. People do not view it as history, its just a part of their life.
And when the area is changing through construction, they tend to ruin stuff. they build houses around it, slums, use histroical stuff for different purposes...like cisterns becoming garbage dumps.

Nowadays archeologists are more careful. And theres more pressure I think. A big event was building of the metro to connect europe-asia.
Its generally a trade-off. Millions of people had to wait for a massive excavation for years for construction to continue. But amazing stuff and new ships even were discovered.


As for the Ottoman palaces in the last 100 years. Obviously no big palace was destroyed. If anything, there were mini-mansions of the Ottoman elite. A lot of those I think were destroyed.

Just as I was writing I came across this on facebook
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2015/0...erdevelopment/

The Tarlabaşı project is a really weird issue.
The area was populated mostly by non-Muslims and has AMAZING houses that present the old style of the city(more 19th century). However, when minorities were smashed and had to leave the area became de-populated. Later, they were filled with forced Kurdish migrations to assimilate them.

The area turned into a 3rd world in the middle of the city. House of crime and drugs as well as fierce left resistance. They are now forcing the peole there out and razing the whole area to rebuild them in a more commercial manner.

[Antiochus Seleukos]

Yea the short-term gain capitalism does not really act picky when it comes to what to destroy.
I cannot really tell how much stuff is destroyed now, its a process thats been going on for decades. The reason things get destroyed easily is because they are not official. Basically, a very old piece had been standing there and is being used for daily life for centuries. People do not view it as history, its just a part of their life.
And when the area is changing through construction, they tend to ruin stuff. they build houses around it, slums, use histroical stuff for different purposes...like cisterns becoming garbage dumps.

Nowadays archeologists are more careful. And theres more pressure I think. A big event was building of the metro to connect europe-asia.
Its generally a trade-off. Millions of people had to wait for a massive excavation for years for construction to continue. But amazing stuff and new ships even were discovered.


As for the Ottoman palaces in the last 100 years. Obviously no big palace was destroyed. If anything, there were mini-mansions of the Ottoman elite. A lot of those I think were destroyed.

Just as I was writing I came across this on facebook
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2015/0...erdevelopment/

The Tarlabaşı project is a really weird issue.
The area was populated mostly by non-Muslims and has AMAZING houses that present the old style of the city(more 19th century). However, when minorities were smashed and had to leave the area became de-populated. Later, they were filled with forced Kurdish migrations to assimilate them.

The area turned into a 3rd world in the middle of the city. House of crime and drugs as well as fierce left resistance. They are now forcing the peole there out and razing the whole area to rebuild them in a more commercial manner.

What was generally destroyed during the building of the metro? Also, what happened to these houses?

I don't know, but it feels to me like tons of stuff has been destroyed in the last 150 years when it could have easily been avoided.



Also, do you know any more about Antakya/Antioch? Obviously a huge city in Roman, Byzantine and Medieval times but almost nothing remains there, too.

[Antiochus Seleukos]

Interesting - reconstructions of one of the largest Roman cities of which nothing remains today - Antioch:
http://www.lsa.umich.edu/kelsey/antioch/A1/index.html

[SharpEyed]

What was generally destroyed during the building of the metro?(..)

Nothing got destroyed during the metro building, something got "found" and there have been an archaeological excavation for long, that delayed the construction

And what found that has been worked on, and now some of them are being exhibited here and there (I guess), most likely u can find it by googling, I've watched a video about it before, but i dont recall all details.

"Marmaray project" is what it is, the metro under the bosphorus, bridges the 2 continents (Asia and Europe) under the sea

PS What i suggest is dont just believe all the things u hear (and read) guys, yes there always some bad guys doing bad things for money, but there is also good ones that wanna protect the Historical stuff now, especially in these last 10 years.

Take a look at this : http://www.tika.gov.tr/en
Idk if they worked on Ancient historical stuff like Romans' but I know they did a lot works for Ottoman historical stuff

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Just few samples that can assure that u could find much more historical stuff in Turkey than u think guys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrian%27s_Gate

http://www.vitruvius.be/theateraspendos.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspendos (Don't forget to check the Bottom of the page, u won't Regret it!)

These both in the same city, and built around same time give or take.

[Roma_Victrix]

If Erdogan can build a giant modern palace to himself, surely he can recreate large sections of Constantinople in modern-day Istanbul.

My guess would be that such a move would be popular in Greece, but unpopular with the locals who want to keep their green park space (a major source of contention and protest already against Erdogan and his party).

[SharpEyed]

If Erdogan can build a giant modern palace to himself, surely he can recreate large sections of Constantinople in modern-day Istanbul.

My guess would be that such a move would be popular in Greece, but unpopular with the locals who want to keep their green park space (a major source of contention and protest already against Erdogan and his party).

to himself? lol it's for President, and he is the current one, idk why it bothers u while US itself has its palace: "the White-House" thou?

Anyway, thats not our subject.

So about recreating historical stuffs, well Istanbul is so crowded with like ~20 million population (its around 1/4 of Turkey), and everywhere is full with buildings, doing historical/archaeological excavation is not that easy as u think

And about the other one u said, well I wont comment on that, dont wanna turn here into political discussion thread..

[kmikea]

Amazing.