Overarm or Underarm animations for Hoplites ?

[El Muerte]

This thread has been split from the Independant Units Preview thread which can be found here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...9&page=1&pp=20


thanks ozz




I don;t wanna go overboard but i tihink this could be one of the most beautiful mods on TWCenter.
Keep up the good work guys....and I hope you will make accurate Spartans, (their discipline, morale etc.) and i hope you WON'T use animations where hoplites holds spears overshoulder
I like good old fashion phalanx formation.In wikipedia it says:
"While the general assumption is that the spear was gripped overhand; others have argued that it was held underarm."
So i hope you won't change hoplite units like it was changed in Greek Extended Mod.....also i hate when my units don't uses swords for close combat.It ruins a good game.....thats why Im putting all my hopes in you guys.
Im very optimistic about this mod......

Anyway.....it's about time someone makes good and accurate "Greek mod"

Keep up the good work guys I can't wait to see it

[Zarax]

I don;t wanna go overboard but i tihink this could be one of the most beautiful mods on TWCenter.
Keep up the good work guys....and I hope you will make accurate Spartans, (their discipline, morale etc.) and i hope you WON'T use animations where hoplites holds spears overshoulder
I like good old fashion phalanx formation.In wikipedia it says:
"While the general assumption is that the spear was gripped overhand; others have argued that it was held underarm."
So i hope you won't change hoplite units like it was changed in Greek Extended Mod.....also i hate when my units don't uses swords for close combat.It ruins a good game.....thats why Im putting all my hopes in you guys.
Im very optimistic about this mod......

Anyway.....it's about time someone makes good and accurate "Greek mod"

Keep up the good work guys I can't wait to see it

Hoplites historically held spears overhand, if you don't like them that way in XGM it's 5 minutes work to change them back to underarm...

[El Muerte]

I talked to my friend today ...he's athletic trainer. Because I was so curious I asked him about holding and thrusting spear overshoulder, and he said if you thrust it that way, you would probably broke or dislocated elbow,wrist on your hand and mabye shoulder, cos you must throw spear to release all that force you accumulated by thrusting.
BUT if you hold your spear undershoulder (underhand) you have better grip with hand,and substains less force cos your arm can strech free in natural position.....that means your wrists are under less force.

[spirit_of_rob]

The hoplite units use what is regarded as the correct overarmed stance, for the most part hoplite battles were decided with a massive push of shield on shield the spear was use in conjunction with this impact.

[Snevets]

My personal theory on the situation was that it was much more flexible than we all think. Everybody thinks phalanx = rigid- I think that while it was supposed to be a rigid formation there was alot of room for personal combat- that's why the value of not showing off existed. If there was no opportunity for being overly zealous it wouldn't have been a problem. I think the best way to do it is to have them underhand generally, but have them switch to overhand for charges and as one of their attack animations (maybe two to make it more common). That way you have a rigid formation which is still reasonably unpredictable. If the Spartans were always attacking in the same exact manner I think they would have been mowed down- happens anytime you have a predictable opponent. Under that theory the main difference between the traditional and macedonian phalankes would have been the degree of rigidity.

Right now however the formation is solely overhanded.

[malibu.stacey]

if the hoplites really fought ´shoulder to shoulder´, then wielding the spear overhand
was the only way to use it effectivly.
the hoplons( or aspis?) have a diameter of nearly 90 cms, so, in a phalanx, they overlap if all being held to the fore. a spear being wielded underhand would just stick out in an awkward angle.

just my two (euro)cents...

[El Muerte]

if the hoplites really fought ´shoulder to shoulder´, then wielding the spear overhand
was the only way to use it effectivly.
the hoplons( or aspis?) have a diameter of nearly 90 cms, so, in a phalanx, they overlap if all being held to the fore. a spear being wielded underhand would just stick out in an awkward angle.

just my two (euro)cents...

No,no you got me all wrong mate.....
Not UNDER the shield... but over it...
And Spear was hold underhand (with palm facing ground)....so when you thrust with it, your hand is strached it is in same line (hight) as your shoulder.
So basicly ...spear comes as extension of your arm....going below your elbow. If you tried to stab someone holding spear over your shoulder, you could hurt yourself if you don't let go the spear...cos of such force......when you strech your arm to max....but your wrist will be in unnatural position holding spear.
Ask any profesional athletic spear thrower.......if you don't let go a spear when you swing....you can brake your elbow....and that's a fact.
Imagine what would hapen if you thrust over and over again.......you would broke your arm and wrists.
Just try it with a stick, a broom......try "stabbing" holding it over shoulder....and try it how i described....you'll soon find out that holding spear with your palm facing ground is much comfortable position.

[typhoon77]

Always thought the over hand hand aspect was to allow the spear to get over the shield wall ?
If you look at a lot of artwork and all of spear work they're almost all over hand like a hammer blow with the fist coming down, very much the same pose as javelin in field events, or how someone uses a spear to catch fish - it's also more accurate.

I do agree if you're using it as a thrusting weapon you need to use the underarm technique to gain power but also you'd be wanting to hold the weapon with both hands to keep it steady.

1 handed you also have a lot more control over the direction of the strike and how quick you can turn, your body isn't in the way, if you have it under arm like in the Macedonian Phalanx you have to move the spear in order to move yourself.

Also if you're shield to shield, having a thrusting spear is almost useless, you wouldn't have the space esp for the front rank which is why they probably adapted a measure of both types for different situations and ranks in the battle line.

You don't also have to put masses of power into a strike to make it effective, infact quick, accurate stabbing effects can be just as effective if not as quick as a heavy 1 off killing blow. Spear tips can be like arrow heads as well, built for different purposes, different designs would have been suitable for different striking methods, same with the shaft, some are long/short - rigid/flexible.

Same principal with swords, not all are designed for 1 method of attack....ie you wouldnt weild and use a cutlass the way you do a claymore.

[malibu.stacey]

ok, just found a website "written by hoplites, for hoplites" :tooth:
They are hoplite reenactors and provide some insight on the over/underhand issue(and some nice pics, too)


http://www.4hoplites.com/Warfare.htm

[El Muerte]

ok, just found a website "written by hoplites, for hoplites" :tooth:
They are hoplite reenactors and provide some insight on the over/underhand issue(and some nice pics, too)


http://www.4hoplites.com/Warfare.htm

Saw it long time ago...those guys have lot of free time and money.....they are not reserchers....

I also found some links:

http://www.holycross.edu/departments/classics/dawhite/
http://qa.perl.org/phalanx/history.html

I found this:
" However, this arrangement also endangered those hoplites in the rear ranks, for misdirection or accidental backward thrusts of the spear often led to the injury or death of one’s fellow soldier"
Concslusion: If you held spear overhand...how can you stab someone behind?
But theni found this:
"The hoplites on the front line presumably advanced with their spears carried underhand, aiming for the enemy’s groin and legs. After the initial surge forward came to a standstill, the front three lines would stab their enemy holding the spear overhand."
So looks like we were both right...so THERE IS NO QUESTION that spear was used underhand and also overhand.....but what bothers me is HOW it was held.
More natural position when you hold spear over hand would be a grip with your hand, and your hand thumb is positioned towards the tip of spar....not backwords.....like you hold a hammer to swing.
When you hold spear (thumb facing to the tip of spear) overhand that way you'll have more natural position for your arm and not to mention you have better range nad you quickly can combine thrust over and under shield depending where enemy has exposed himself.- I READ THIS IN "GATES OF FIRE"
You can't hold spear overhand like you are about to throw it cos you will injure wrist....try it yourself.......plus...i got a professional oppinion on my side.

[Snevets]

I definately agree about the way it was held when overhand- there is no way it could be used in the same grip as underhand- they would've had to have changed grips. I used one of the bamboo sticks in my backyard to see how easily one might change grips while carrying something heavy in the other hand and I think its not that difficult to do at all. I suppose you could argue it wouldn't be the same game while in battle but hey- the Spartans were professionals, I'm not an Agoge graduate.

[El Muerte]

Here...i found some pics and i found what i was looking for.Look at first picture, watch out for first and second row.Soldiers in second row hold spear just as I told. Also look all the others pics...look how first line hold spears.But rest of the line in back holds spears in angle of 45 degrees to deflect enemy arrows.





As you can see, first and second line in some pictures holds spears under shoulder....aiming with spear to enemy's face and throat, while back lines hold spears over shoulders but not in throwing position.....
So my frienad was right about holding the spear properly
Some of those pisc are taken from BBC documentary.
So we busted this mistery...... ...

[malibu.stacey]

some nice pics can be found on this site:

http://www.xlegio.ru/armies/zhmodiko..._evolution.htm(just scroll down a bit)


they all show hoplites in the overhand "throwing" position. so the mystery continues...

[malibu.stacey]

I used one of the sticks in my backyard to see how easily one might change grips

you dont even have to change grips if you hold the spear "back to front"(it has two business ends, after all :tooth: ) underhand. just raise it over your shoulder.

When you hold spear (thumb facing to the tip of spear) overhand that way you'll have more natural position for your arm and not to mention you have better range nad you quickly can combine thrust over and under shield depending where enemy has exposed himself

i agree with the increased range and thrust but you just dont get over the enemy shieldwall that way. you need a top down movement of the spear to accomplish that, not a lateral one.


some pics for ´my´ theory

[Idomeneas]

well the over under hand issue...

There are elements that indicate both grips were used but in different situations. So when the formation was more loose the hoplites could use the underarm grip which is less tiring but has less power due to a reduced arc. When the shield were locked and especially when othismos was on the hoplites used only the overarm grim. Reasons.

They were so packed together that they could not even draw their sword properly but in a special way only thus holding the grip all the way down trap the scabbard in the armpit and the same time hold it with the elbow so he can draw the sword. If there was room he wouldnt do all those joggler stuff :tooth: . Everyone that has been in the army knows that in order to be room for movement the soldiers must be an arm away if you do this in phalanx it doesnt exist anymore. The no show off mentality had to do actually with ''dont leave a gap in the formation idiot cause you ll get your side man killed''. Even one stupid man was enough to destroy everything. Hoplites first duty was to stand and hold position and then fight. In a close packed formation you cannot use the underarm grip except those in first row with the danger of hurting somebody behind and little lack in getting to hit somebody thighs.
The overarm grip gives accuracy as its tiring but more precise in getting the neck or even body if lucky. It has a bigger arc so there is more strenght in it.
There was mentioned a relation between modern athlets with javelins and hoplites. Well sorry but we are talking about 2 totally diffrent things. The modern athletes have more in comon with psiloi. Their effort consists of running, using the thighs, shoulder muscles, arrm and wrist. basically the whole body turns to a spring. Its logical to have injury if all this energy stays ''in''. But hoplites just stood used a fair but not great amount of strenght and propably more ''peppered'' than stabed with all their strenght the enemy in intense small attacks and redraws of the spear till they get a weak spot. in other way they will just bang on bronze and get only tired.

[El Muerte]

I agree with you Idomeneas .....BUT there is one thing.In battle, soldier would have first used a thrusting spear but when he was closely engaged with enemy, he is unable to use spear anymore so he then used a short sword with which he could both cut and thrustand.
I posted before here is a link about hoplite warfare:
http://www.holycross.edu/departments/classics/dawhite/

One sentece form Victor Davis Hanson, Classics scholar and professor at California State University in Fresno, goes like this: "However, this arrangement also endangered those hoplites in the rear ranks, for misdirection or accidental backward thrusts of the spear often led to the injury or death of one’s fellow soldier"
So that means they used underarm grip......stabing accidentaly fellow soldiers behind them.And there are some nice pict that illustare this.

Also i found some interesting pic on WIKIPEDIA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_formation

So i think that 1st and mabye 2nd line used underarm thrust while back lines used overarm grip.
Look at my pics i posted up there.....back lines hold sperar oveshoulder...but look how they hold it acctualy.....

And Solon de Atenas up there showed us pic of hoplites using underarm and overarm grip.......

[El Muerte]

FOUND IT AT LAST :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_formation

The Doru

The doru was a type of spear in general use in the Hellenistic world. Although accounts of the weapon's length vary, it is usually held today to have been between seven and nine feet long. It was held one-handed, the other hand holding the hoplite's aspis (shield). The front spearhead was usually a curved leaf shape, while the other contained a spike called a sauroter ("lizard-killer") which was used to stand the spear in the ground (hence the name), as a secondary weapon if the main shaft snapped or for the rear ranks to finish off fallen opponents as the phalanx advanced over them. There is debate as to whether the soldier would wield his spear above or below the shoulder. If it was held under-hand the thrusts would have been less powerful but under more control, and vice versa. It seems likely that both motions were used, depending on the situation. If attack was called for, an overhand motion was more likely to break through an opponent's defensive set-up and hit a vital area. The upward thrust is more easily deflected by armour due to its lesser leverage. However, when defending, an underarm carry absorbed more shock and could be "couched" under the shoulder for maximum stability. It should also be said that an overarm motion would allow more effective combination of the aspis and doru if the shield wall had broken down, while the underarm motion would be more effective when the shield had to be interlocked with those of one's neighbours in the battle-line. It is certain, however, that hoplites in the rows behind the lead would thrust overhand. The rear ranks raised their spears upwards at increasing angles. This was an effective defence against missiles, deflecting their force.

So questin remains....can you guys ,make animation in Hegemonia mod where first line uses under arm thrust while back lines using overhand thrust?
I think that would be AWSOME! Not to mention realistic.....

[Idomeneas]

first of all, all those quotes are known and filtered. Like the ancient saying goes ''you try to introduce owl to athens''. I already said both grips were used in diffrent situations. When shield are locked and with all that armour the hoplites in first rank if they used underarm the dory (ΔΟΡΥ) they would be lucky to just scratch the opponents kneecap. as for the second row its impossible to use underarm. the quote of Davis Hanson doesnt mean at all that the grip was underarm cause you can hit the face of the one behind very easy even in overarm. Most pottery depictions present the overarm grip. Dory wasnt a hellenistic spear, Sarissa was. Dory was as ancient as the age of bronze. Also only Sarisa could effectively form a wall so bolts will not get through or get through without real power cause of its height.

Since no serious reenactment of two opposing phalanxes has happen yet (small groups doesnt count) we cannot be sure what was possible but only base on finds. Now some armchair schollars that write essays here and there i have learned to not be haste to take serious.

[malibu.stacey]

maybe a poll?

overhand for a tight phalanx formation, underhand/sword as soon as the phalanx becomes disorganized gets my vote

[El Muerte]

Now some armchair schollars that write essays here and there i have learned to not be haste to take serious.

Dont get offended mate but what you sad is just arrogant.
He is a PROFESSOR...what more do you want? Did you even bothered read that links?

If you think you have higher academic knowledge than professor.....then just say it.

Anyways I was asking is it possible to make underhand animation for first line and overhand animation for back lines at the same time...cos both are used in battles....as I was trying to point to some people here, so they can make awsome units and animations.