Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

[karo]

I am not acting as an economist, maybe cause my own degree is not in economics.. And Krugman as you know is not the only famed actual economist to be outspoken against austerity and in favor of the greek gov position for a while now.

We do not want austerity. That is true. We do want mass reforms, though. Just working reforms that will allow for bettering the state, and by far. Austerity itself did not help any reform or will to reform. It was just a counter-productive and punitive measure, and it was denied now anyway by the overwhelming NO to it. Good riddance, and time to actually run positive changes instead of nation-killing austerity.

What are the reforms that the Greek government has put on the table? What have been the reforms that the Greek government has actually implemented? Do they actually have a long term plan to govern Greece? To me it seems that Greece has been governed by people who do not have any long term plan for the last 30 years.

[ABH2]

I am not acting as an economist, maybe cause my own degree is not in economics.. And Krugman as you know is not the only famed actual economist to be outspoken against austerity and in favor of the greek gov position for a while now.

This is, first off, nothing more than appeal to authority. Second, what Krugman now says in public is contradicted by a number of his past comments on the same subjects. Anyone can find his own words being used against him by doing a simple Google search. But if you aren't interested in learning, the words aren't going to matter.

To put it bluntly, Krugman is a liar. He's not stupid or even ignorant. He's just a hack who pushes the party line. He knows where his bread is buttered.

Who is going to pay for Greece's budget? The Greek taxpayers certainly haven't been, and aren't going to anytime soon.

You are operating under the delusion that the creditors you just spurned are going to keep giving you money.

We do want mass reforms, though. Just working reforms that will allow for bettering the state, and by far.

The only potential reform is getting people off the state's payroll, and turning them into productive members of society. It is reducing the state.

[Akrotatos]

That Varoufakis was forced out is a good sign of serious negotiations. My prediction is that we will get some sort of deal soon, a deal which will be as hard the previous one but will probably have some nonsense populistic clause that Tsipras can use to return a hero some that the mob will vote for him again.

Until now it seemed that the only good thing of the crisis was that the electorate started thinking a bit..but nope. False alarm.

[Stavroforos]

So I'm guessing Baroufa-kis resigned when he realized he couldn't get a deal within 48 hours of the referendum. So basically classic SYRIZA, ie not holding themselves accountable. In any case, good riddance.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

The only potential reform is getting people off the state's payroll, and turning them into productive members of society. It is reducing the state.

This is correct, more people in the private sector equals more cash inflow for the state without the need to pay them, however the problem is, the "institutions" wanted to fire everyone without caring that there are no jobs at the private sector now.

You can't just fire 50% of the public employees and tell them to go screw themselves.

If the whole thing was done in a more slow paced way, to allow for actual economic development first, to allow for investments to come in without them sabotaging it 24/7 with grexit rumors, then all these public employees would have somewhere to go.

If you just fire people you are doing nothing, all of them will simply move from the state payroll, to the state unemployed check.

[Kyriakos]

This is, first off, nothing more than appeal to authority. Second, what Krugman now says in public is contradicted by a number of his past comments on the same subjects. Anyone can find his own words being used against him by doing a simple Google search. But if you aren't interested in learning, the words aren't going to matter.

To put it bluntly, Krugman is a liar. He's not stupid or even ignorant. He's just a hack who pushes the party line. He knows where his bread is buttered.

Who is going to pay for Greece's budget? The Greek taxpayers certainly haven't been, and aren't going to anytime soon.

You are operating under the delusion that the creditors you just spurned are going to keep giving you money.



The only potential reform is getting people off the state's payroll, and turning them into productive members of society. It is reducing the state.

That is sound economic advice indeed, to fire another large number of people in short time. That'll surely get us out of the depression.

And you say others are hacks re economy?

As for Syriza proposed reforms, they include a more logical taxing system which allows more tax -within reason- for the super-rich, and less tax for the poorest, also opening of examinations on chronic state-media mogul shadowy deals (which is why many local media favored a YES vote so badly, and lost so badly now- and university-to-labour market reform, given that Greece has among the largest percentage of Uni holders/population not just in the Eu, but globally.

Let's see if the eurogroup alters its tune. We will be here to see what they'll say, and the future will happen either way.

[ABH2]

The funny thing is that some people will blame corporations and entities like the IMF and the EU for all their problems, and absolve their own govts of the blame.
We had a greece-like situation back in 1991 as well, and we chose to implement IMF-prescribed reforms instead of defaulting. We're still a pretty developing country, but atleast people can invest and set up their own businesses here. Its no longer a command economy.

Banks are nice villains. Always have been. People like to borrow money, but they don't like paying it back. You could take most of the anti-IMF creeds put forth by the left and replace it with Jews and it would be indistinguishable from the propaganda of the early twentieth century.

I don't think the IMF reforms were going to work in Greece, personally. Greece was never going to have time to pay back the debt it had racked up, and they never showed any interest in opening up their economy.

[davsim]

What a huge mess.
Don't think that the other southern european countries are with you, those who have sustained huge sacrifices don't see giving a different treatment to Greece favourably.

[Iskar]

We do not want austerity. That is true. We do want mass reforms, though. Just working reforms that will allow for bettering the state, and by far. Austerity itself did not help any reform or will to reform. It was just a counter-productive and punitive measure, and it was denied now anyway by the overwhelming NO to it. Good riddance, and time to actually run positive changes instead of nation-killing austerity.

Yes, no one wants austerity. But it is not a willfully enacted measure, it is a simple consequence of not having enough income to cover the inflated expenditure. You cannot spend what you do not have, to put it bluntly. Even taking up loans only prolongs the problem, as interest rates correct this fiscal distortion by becoming unsustainably high.

Greece cannot avoid cutting expenses, one way or the other. Within the Eurozone this might even be easier as leaving it will make the massive imports of commodities from the EU unsutainably expensive and in the current setting it would be long before Greece built up any kind of industry to provide for itself.
Let us hope that Tsipras sacking Varoufakis is a sign of coming to his senses and that at last some fruitful negotiations can take place, so that actual reforms can be enacted and money from the rest of Eurozone can be used to mitigate the hardships of the Greek people.

This is correct, more people in the private sector equals more cash inflow for the state without the need to pay them, however the problem is, the "institutions" wanted to fire everyone without caring that there are no jobs at the private sector now.

You can't just fire 50% of the public employees and tell them to go screw themselves.

If the whole thing was done in a more slow paced way, to allow for actual economic development first, to allow for investments to come in without them sabotaging it 24/7 with grexit rumors, then all these public employees would have somewhere to go.

If you just fire people you are doing nothing, all of them will simply move from the state payroll, to the state unemployed check.

The problem is that most likely what we have here is an economic deadlock: Without reducing the state expenditure the economic climate remains extremely unfavourable for expansion of the private sector and without the latter one cannot sensibly sack superfluous state employees which make up the major part of state expenditure.
The only way to break the deadlock is enact the measure you have control over (sacking the employees, because you cannot order people to start enterprises) and then use money from the creditors to help those sacked over the time until the private sector has expanded enough to employ them.

[Kyriakos]

What a huge mess.
Don't think that the other southern european countries are with you, those who have sustained huge sacrifices don't see giving a different treatment to Greece favourably.

I take it you speak for all those in the 200 recent anti-austerity and Pro-NO vote rallies in Italy, Spain, Portugal, France etc. Do you also in the same way speak for the mayor of Naples? Cause it seems they all say the exact opposite to your post. Also you speak for the president of the Italian and the president of the French parliament who say the same?
'Don't disturb my circles'

[SoumyaBanerjee]

That is sound economic advice indeed, to fire another large number of people in short time. That'll surely get us out of the depression.

And you say others are hacks re economy?

As for Syriza proposed reforms, they include a more logical taxing system which allows more tax -within reason- for the super-rich, and less tax for the poorest, also opening of examinations on chronic state-media mogul shadowy deals (which is why many local media favored a YES vote so badly, and lost so badly now- and university-to-labour market reform, given that Greece has among the largest percentage of Uni holders/population not just in the Eu, but globally.

Let's see if the eurogroup alters its tune. We will be here to see what they'll say, and the future will happen either way.

If syriza's reforms do sound as good, then why have they been working so hard to undermine greece's credibility among its creditors?

Yes, no one wants austerity. But it is not a willfully enacted measure, it is a simple consequence of not having enough income to cover the inflated expenditure. You cannot spend what you do not have, to put it bluntly. Even taking up loans only prolongs the problem, as interest rates correct this fiscal distortion by becoming unsustainably high.

Greece cannot avoid cutting expenses, one way or the other. Within the Eurozone this might even be easier as leaving it will make the massive imports of commodities from the EU unsutainably expensive and in the current setting it would be long before Greece built up any kind of industry to provide for itself.
Let us hope that Tsipras sacking Varoufakis is a sign of coming to his senses and that at last some fruitful negotiations can take place, so that actual reforms can be enacted and money from the rest of Eurozone can be used to mitigate the hardships of the Greek people.

+rep to you, sir!!!

[ApostolhsVl]

Stop talking about Greece now is not your business , focus on your countries and your life.If Grexit happen then it's okay don't be afraid about your money Greek people will it pay back(we need time but it's better with this way).I don't know how but this statement (Grexit) is good for all right? EU will increased their production , EU coin will increased as well and everything will going fine for u! now about us Greek people HELL but it's okay.

[pajomife]

Nothing last for ever ,nor the Euro nor EU,living like this to maintain a political and economic fantasy is useless.

[SoumyaBanerjee]

Stop talking about Greece now is not your business , focus on your countries and your life.If Grexit happen then it's okay don't be afraid about your money Greek people will it pay back(we need time but it's better with this way).I don't know how but this statement (Grexit) is good for all right? EU will increased their production , EU coin will increased as well and everything will going fine for u! now about us Greek people HELL but it's okay.

Since you exercised your democratic rights so wonderfully in the referendum, you might as well let us have some democracy on this forum, and not try to muzzle us.
Grexit will be a disaster for greece, since it will force it to revert to a devalued currency. Importing costs will rise, and greece has few exports(and exports becoming cheaper as a result of the cheaper drachma will be nullified by exports becoming costlier within the eurozone region). Inflation will rise, and so will unemployment.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Stop talking about Greece now is not your business , focus on your countries and your life.If Grexit happen then it's okay don't be afraid about your money Greek people will it pay back(we need time but it's better with this way).I don't know how but this statement (Grexit) is good for all right? EU will increased their production , EU coin will increased as well and everything will going fine for u! now about us Greek people HELL but it's okay.

lol, Greece isn't going to pay back anything, do you not know what a default is?

In reality the Eurozone faces huge costs from Greece's attempt at a murder-suicide pact:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33405982

[ABH2]

You can't just fire 50% of the public employees and tell them to go screw themselves.

Nor can you continue to rack up debt while not implementing reforms. The issues in Greece have only been growing worse, and then you guys elected SYRiZA and basically made clear that no economic reforms would ever actual take place until you had no choice in the matter (ie people stopped giving you money).

The public sector took a small paycut to their grossly inflated wages, the private sector suffered the worst as it was pillaged some more, and none of the actual reforms that would have made it easier for people to become productive members of society instead of government parasites took place.

Your politicians (elected by the Greek people) made massive mistakes. I'm sorry that you think those can be corrected in a short order of time or that someone else should bail your people out. No amount of voting for new captains of the sinking ship is going to plug those holes. There is no quick and painless fix to a problem that was over a generation in the making.

If you just fire people you are doing nothing, all of them will simply move from the state payroll, to the state unemployed check.

This is really a foreign concept to you, isn't it? There's no one left to pay for your unemployment checks or unproductive bureaucracy.

People are adaptive. From 2008 on your government should have been discredited and the Greek people should have been calling for them to get out of the way. Instead, too many Greeks wanted the gravy train to continue. You guys, by and large, like your economic protectionism. I hate collectivizing all of the Greek people, but it's fair to say the majority have no desire to compete in an actual marketplace. There's your problem. You've had 7 years to get rid of the cronyism and protectionism. That's more than enough time.

As for Syriza proposed reforms, they include a more logical taxing system which allows more tax -within reason- for the super-rich, and less tax for the poorest, also opening of examinations on chronic state-media mogul shadowy deals (which is why many local media favored a YES vote so badly, and lost so badly now- and university-to-labour market reform, given that Greece has among the largest percentage of Uni holders/population not just in the Eu, but globally.

Your solution is to tax more when people are already not paying their taxes. What could go wrong there?

7 years. That's how long the Greek government and its bureaucratic apparatus had to reduce barriers to entry and bureaucratic red tape. The majority of the Greek people refused.

[davsim]

I take it you speak for all those in the 200 recent anti-austerity and Pro-NO vote rallies in Italy, Spain, Portugal, France etc. Do you also in the same way speak for the mayor of Naples? Cause it seems they all say the exact opposite to your post. Also you speak for the president of the Italian and the president of the French parliament who say the same?
'Don't disturb my circles'

You mean Sel (sinistra ecologia e libertà) which has the consensum of a phone prefix number? Or M5S, whom has been hemorrhaging votes everywhere? The mayor of Naples? He has been condemned for office abuse and bid rigging. Or La Lega, that compares southern Italy to a Greek colony, they are not making a compliment, trust me.
Frankly, you can keep those imbecilles lol, they would ruin Italy if they had the change to govern.

Each and every anti euro party has his own very personalistic view of Europe, they don't really care about Greece, it's pretty naive to think otherwise.

[Tiwaz]

That is sound economic advice indeed, to fire another large number of people in short time. That'll surely get us out of the depression.

And you say others are hacks re economy?

As for Syriza proposed reforms, they include a more logical taxing system which allows more tax -within reason- for the super-rich, and less tax for the poorest, also opening of examinations on chronic state-media mogul shadowy deals (which is why many local media favored a YES vote so badly, and lost so badly now- and university-to-labour market reform, given that Greece has among the largest percentage of Uni holders/population not just in the Eu, but globally.

Let's see if the eurogroup alters its tune. We will be here to see what they'll say, and the future will happen either way.

So WHY THE HELL YOU GREEKS HAVE NOT DONE A DAMN THING THIS PAST 5 YEARS?
Why has not Syriza started by cracking down on those right tax evaders? Honestly, it is not like you lot have not had time or opportunity to do something.

Problem is, nothing is done but TALK ABOUT DOING INSTEAD OF DOING. Greek governments love to talk about things they would do but never actually do a damn thing.

As for eurogroup, you clearly eat up Tsipras and his BS of this giving you "strong" position. This is just patient pulling out the drip and starting to die. And now the doctors have excellent excuse to let the troublesome leech die away, noting that is what patient wants.

I predict year or two and Red Cross has to establish emergency aid program for Greece.

[Iskar]

Your solution is to tax more when people are already not paying their taxes. What could go wrong there?

7 years. That's how long the Greek government and its bureaucratic apparatus had to reduce barriers to entry and bureaucratic red tape. The majority of the Greek people refused.

Very true. People keep blaming the Eurozone for creating this mess by letting Greece in as if their failure was predetermined from the start, but in fact they had almost a decade with access to cheap money that would have allowed them to enact serious reforms while mitigating the effects of cuts and restructuring with intermediate state programs financed by the cheap money.

[Kraut]

I guess the negotiations picking up will take some time. In the meantime, to avoid a collapse of the Greek bank system, it will be necessary that the ECB provides more aid.
Hope this means the Banks in Greece will open again in the coming days.