Nimrud Bulldozed

[Roma_Victrix]

The Assyrian militias are all too willing to destroy other's people history. Shiite militias are not much better in their fanaticism.

What exactly have the Christian Assyrian militias done wrong? Sorry, I'm not doubting your suggestion that this is true, but I just haven't heard anything about them committing war crimes. Do you have a news article for that?

But I agree that history is sacred. The destruction of Hatra is, for me, a war-crime that's as bad as the execution of hundreds because they didn't follow to the letter what ISIS believes is the right interpretation of Islam.

For me the destruction of Hatra and Nimrud are war crimes because they are part and parcel of their ethnic cleansing campaign to wipe out the history of any other people in the region aside from Sunni Arabs. That includes Kurds, Assyrians, Shia Arabs, and even ancient Persian influence (since they especially hate Iran). Despite their lame claims of being iconoclasts and being holier than thou, it's also obvious that they're doing this to cover the fact that they were desperate for cash and looted the treasures of these sites to sell in black markets. A small caveat in the Taliban's 2001 destruction of the 6th-century Bamiyan Buddhas in Afghanistan was a Taliban envoy who basically admitted it was in retaliation for aid money that was sent to restore ancient statues while Afghan people were starving in a famine. This is really all about money and sending cheap political potshots across the bow. That is what makes the destruction of Nimrud and Hatra all the more infuriating.

[alhoon]

For whatever it's worth, I'm willing to donate money after they've been hunted down, to reconstruct what has been destroyed.

[Rinan]

For whatever it's worth, I'm willing to donate money after they've been hunted down, to reconstruct what has been destroyed.

So the next crazies can pull it down? Let's wait a few years, maybe...

[Yayattasa]

Nope nothing to do with Islam. No sir. That there is a jobs program. Obviously they are making room for a factory to produce parts for the the iphone 7. ISIS is also re-branding itself to iSIS.

Muslims have been living around there for centuries, only now the place was destroyed. How can you actually blame Islam?

[Dracula]

Muslims have been living around there for centuries, only now the place was destroyed. How can you actually blame Islam?

Because it first destroyed other things and that is what was left. Now that is also not good, and had to go too. Inspired by islam. Because these people do not have other views, do they ?

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

Let's hope it's been mostly the reconstructions - At many ancient sites, it's actually the reconstructions that are the most spectacular (Delphi, for example).

That said, the worst damage has already been done way before this month, when all over Syria and Iraq sites have been looted and people dug for treasures in the ground, in the process destroying priceless archeological traces. That is the true casualty to archaeology, science, and hence humanity in general.

Yes i saw images of Dura Europos were you could see on satelite images holes of 1 to 2 m² everywhere even outside in the desert were the palmyrian graves are. An that's not really a problem of IS because in fact that they sell ancient artifacts is not really the case. Yes they do in small amounts but not as big as the media make us believe. The huge problem are the many helpless people in urgent need of money. Right now there are metal detectors everywhere and common people just go around and loot stuff.

[Roma_Victrix]

Yes i saw images of Dura Europos were you could see on satelite images holes of 1 to 2 m² everywhere even outside in the desert were the palmyrian graves are. An that's not really a problem of IS because in fact that they sell ancient artifacts is not really the case. Yes they do in small amounts but not as big as the media make us believe. The huge problem are the many helpless people in urgent need of money. Right now there are metal detectors everywhere and common people just go around and loot stuff.

Grave robbing has existed since antiquity and will continue to exist. We have all come to live with that reality to an extent. What we can't stomach or abide by, however, is the wanton and deliberate destruction and erasure of history, ethnic heritage, and cultures. ISIL went out of their way to do this and actually invested the thought, time, money, manpower, and machinery to execute the plan. This goes far beyond just "oh, we need to sell some gold because our future budget looks bad." This is honestly one of the most insidious political messages anyone can imagine: I will ERASE you and you will be FORGOTTEN.

[Rinan]

Because it first destroyed other things and that is what was left. Now that is also not good, and had to go too. Inspired by islam. Because these people do not have other views, do they ?

But you can also argue contrarywise, that Islam has helped preserve a lot of ancient history and monuments.
Besides, it's not like other people are innocent. Consider the iconoclasts of early medieval Roman Empire, protestant iconoclasts in the 17th century, or for example the French secular revolutionists who had many ancient churches and monasteries (such as Cluny) destroyed. It seems the urge to maim, destroy and erase history is inherent in many of this planet's people.

An that's not really a problem of IS because in fact that they sell ancient artifacts is not really the case. Yes they do in small amounts but not as big as the media make us believe.

Do you have a source for that? Just curious.

[Dracula]

But you can also argue contrarywise, that Islam has helped preserve a lot of ancient history and monuments.

No you can't argue the opposite. Because it doesn't call to that but to destroy. So what survived was not due to islam but merely so happened in spite of islam.

[TheDarkKnight]

No...Not Hatra

[Condottiere 40K]

1338
Actually, I heard that the converts to Islam were the real driving force in preserving the ancient libraries.

Remember, the conquerors were mostly a bunch of nomads who believed that only one piece of literature mattered.

I heard that in India whole libraries were burnt, besides the usual ethnic cleansing.

[Mary The Quene]

I'm sure Historians of a later time will mark our century as a dark age

[Aikanár]

Can't we just use Napalm or Sarin gas on those Wahhabis?

You might want to rethink this question. As alhoon has rightly put it, two wrongs don't make a right. Advocating the use of internationally banned agents and therewith committing a war crime cannot be the answer of people considering themselves rational and civilized.

Also, while what's happening is incredibly sad and a loss to human cultural heritage, it's not unprecedented in history (for more than simply muslim fanatics, add fanatics of every other major world religion to that plus pagans to be fair) nor does it strike me as appropriate to advocate to end human Life simply because things are destroyed. One might want to step back and re-adjust ones moral compass when things become more important than human Life.

[Mary The Quene]

You might want to rethink this question. As alhoon has rightly put it, two wrongs don't make a right. Advocating the use of internationally banned agents and therewith committing a war crime cannot be the answer of people considering themselves rational and civilized.

Also, while what's happening is incredibly sad and a loss to human cultural heritage, it's not unprecedented in history (for more than simply muslim fanatics, add fanatics of every other major world religion to that plus pagans to be fair) nor does it strike me as appropriate to advocate to end human Life simply because things are destroyed. One might want to step back and re-adjust ones moral compass when things become more important than human Life.

Then what are we supposed to do? Throw them flowers? After all they've done i can't forgive them anymore and anyone taking part of their activities should face the harsh consequences they deserve. Many of those who travelled had chances enough to get a decent life and get respected by people and now when they spit on us and terrorize other people they should be treated softly?

Sorry for English.

[Roma_Victrix]

One might want to step back and re-adjust ones moral compass when things become more important than human Life.

I see the cause of preserving human life in the here and now as being mutually exclusive from the concern about preserving historical heritage sites, and one doesn't necessarily need to trump the other. I think you're downplaying the seriousness and gravity of this destruction. It is most certainly tied and wed to the larger ethnic cleansing going on, involving the death of real people. The Shia, Kurds, Yazidis, and Assyrians aren't just being killed, their whole past is being deliberately and systematically erased. Thanks for your advice, but I think my moral compass doesn't need any adjusting.

Then what are we supposed to do? Throw them flowers? After all they've done i can't forgive them anymore and anyone taking part of their activities should face the harsh consequences they deserve. Many of those who travelled had chances enough to get a decent life and get respected by people and now when they spit on us and terrorize other people they should be treated softly?

Sorry for English.

Sarin gas implies that you're going after not just the militants, but also the civilian populace too. What did they do to deserve sarin gas? Other than being passive while ISIS fighters took over their towns and cities.

Bombing them in air strikes is good enough. Don't worry, ISIS will get theirs soon enough, hopefully with a hanging rope like the Iraqi government had used with dear old Saddam.

[Mary The Quene]

Sarin gas implies that you're going after not just the militants, but also the civilian populace too. What did they do to deserve sarin gas? Other than being passive while ISIS fighters took over their towns and cities.

Bombing them in air strikes is good enough. Don't worry, ISIS will get theirs soon enough, hopefully with a hanging rope like the Iraqi government had used with dear old Saddam.

Well i get your point, but i would not oppose the use of it when civilians get evacuated like what's happening in Tikrit right now. After that when the city is empty of civilians it should be Zero hour for the followers of Ibn Taymiyyah.

[caratacus]

You might want to rethink this question. As alhoon has rightly put it, two wrongs don't make a right. Advocating the use of internationally banned agents and therewith committing a war crime cannot be the answer of people considering themselves rational and civilized.

Also, while what's happening is incredibly sad and a loss to human cultural heritage, it's not unprecedented in history (for more than simply muslim fanatics, add fanatics of every other major world religion to that plus pagans to be fair) nor does it strike me as appropriate to advocate to end human Life simply because things are destroyed. One might want to step back and re-adjust ones moral compass when things become more important than human Life.

The use of poison gas is banned and rightly so. It is nasty stuff and it kills indiscriminately. However lets not be so humanitarian when it comes to IS .They are ruthless, murderous bunch of bandits who deserve nothing better than a hangman's noose.They don't see the same humanitarian ideals as you my friend and would kill anyone that opposes them. You cant argue or reason with them and they would stop at nothing to achieve their objectives including mass murder on a grand scale. They are dangerous and need to be tackled as a global threat, not just a regional problem in Syria and Iraq. Today they are trying to erase history, tomorrow it will be human beings,as it was literature in 1930's Germany.

[Aikanár]

Then what are we supposed to do? Throw them flowers? After all they've done i can't forgive them anymore and anyone taking part of their activities should face the harsh consequences they deserve. Many of those who travelled had chances enough to get a decent life and get respected by people and now when they spit on us and terrorize other people they should be treated softly?

Sorry for English.

There are more options than two extreme positions like committing war crimes or welcoming them with flowers, like there is more to ISIS than destroying archaeological sites.

Do I think ISIS is a dangerous organization? Yes I do believe that. Do I think they should be combated against? Yes, I would even support putting boots on the ground against them, even boots of my own country and no I don't call for U.S. boots to do the job for me although you wouldn't see me complain if a joint ground force would be put in action.

Do I think that it's uncritical or even possible to do that now? No, I don't think so. Putting boots on the ground in that region is just like willingly shooting yourself in both knees while standing in front of a pile of : you will end up with undesired material in your face.

But asking or advocating for the use of unethical and illegal agents of war to commit war crimes cannot be an answer. If you consider yourself morally, ethically and intellectually superior to those thugs, you cannot let them drag you down to their level. Aside from all the moral and ethical and last but not least legal implications of such an approach, when you really let them pull you down there, they most probably beat you there with experience.

[Condottiere 40K]

1377
You need boots on the ground. Or hooves.

You need Mongols.

[Aikanár]

I see the cause of preserving human life in the here and now as being mutually exclusive from the concern about preserving historical heritage sites, and one doesn't necessarily need to trump the other. I think you're downplaying the seriousness and gravity of this destruction. It is most certainly tied and wed to the larger ethnic cleansing going on, involving the death of real people. The Shia, Kurds, Yazidis, and Assyrians aren't just being killed, their whole past is being deliberately and systematically erased. Thanks for your advice, but I think my moral compass doesn't need any adjusting.

I'm not downplaying it, R_V. It is a very sad incident, absolutely. But it's not unprecedented. Not at all. Tell me what's left from Tenotchtitlan or what did the Bilderstürmer leave, what was done during the French Revolution, or what did the Nazis leave behind or the IJA in China or Korea, or the Romans in Gaul or Iberia, or, or, or, or, or destroying cultural heritage is nothing new to history. You surely can make a case that ISIS may or may not do it purposefully geared towards media, but that's our time and the readiness and availability and importance of media in a war.

Of course it's disturbing and a revolting and despicable deed, but calling for war crimes because of that is nothing short but hysterical and completely blowing this out of proportion.

The use of poison gas is banned and rightly so. It is nasty stuff and it kills indiscriminately. However lets not be so humanitarian when it comes to IS .They are ruthless, murderous bunch of bandits who deserve nothing better than a hangman's noose.They don't see the same humanitarian ideals as you my friend and would kill anyone that opposes them. You cant argue or reason with them and they would stop at nothing to achieve their objectives including mass murder on a grand scale. They are dangerous and need to be tackled as a global threat, not just a regional problem in Syria and Iraq. Today they are trying to erase history, tomorrow it will be human beings,as it was literature in 1930's Germany.

You don't see me disagreeing with you, caratacus. I'm absolutely in favor for combating ISIS (and all other fanatic loonies in that area too) on all levels. I simply am of the opinion that the end does not justify the means and that our civilization is worth more than a simple solution to this problem.