Imperiales Œconomiæ (Main Thread) Update: Tweaked hordes' upkeep and stances - 28.03.15 8:20 AM GMT -6

[dmboss]

Another update within 1 hour!

I know, too many updates, but don't worry, every update is save game compatible.

[miTo82]

I think at higher imperium levels, the unit costs and upkeep are a little bit too cheap form my taste. I mean, playing with your mod means to build up the own kingdom very economic with a lot of buildings that gain money, to pay the high unit costs at the beginning.
Later, at higher levels, you already HAVE this buildings and additionaly the upkeep is cheaper. So I think you will have lots of money and you cant spend it :-P

So maybe you can adjust the costs a little bit more. My personal suggestion / reccomendation is as follow:

• Imperium Level 1: 100% higher costs / upkeep [200%]
• Imperium Level 2: 60% higher costs / upkeep [160%]
• Imperium Level 3: 30% higher costs / upkeep [130%]
• Imperium Level 4: original (vanilla) costs / upkeep [100%]
• Imperium Level 5: 15% lower costs / upkeep [85%]
• Imperium Level 6: 30% lower costs / upkeep [70%]
• Imperium Level 7: 50% lower costs / upkeep [50%]

This looks a little bit more “smooth“ and linear to me…

Another reason why I suggest this is, that I dont like the “uneven“ numbers (for example -23% or -59%)… yes, i am picky and over-particular, but hey, I am german, thats my nature and i have to :-D

And btw, I think the “smooth“ numbers are more pleasant to read in the tooltips =)

If you dont want tot hink about this changings, just forget this post :-P

[dmboss]

I think at higher imperium levels, the unit costs and upkeep are a little bit too cheap form my taste. I mean, playing with your mod means to build up the own kingdom very economic with a lot of buildings that gain money, to pay the high unit costs at the beginning.
Later, at higher levels, you already HAVE this buildings and additionaly the upkeep is cheaper. So I think you will have lots of money and you cant spend it :-P

So maybe you can adjust the costs a little bit more. My personal suggestion / reccomendation is as follow:

• Imperium Level 1: 100% higher costs / upkeep [200%]
• Imperium Level 2: 60% higher costs / upkeep [160%]
• Imperium Level 3: 30% higher costs / upkeep [130%]
• Imperium Level 4: original (vanilla) costs / upkeep [100%]
• Imperium Level 5: 15% lower costs / upkeep [85%]
• Imperium Level 6: 30% lower costs / upkeep [70%]
• Imperium Level 7: 50% lower costs / upkeep [50%]

This looks a little bit more “smooth“ and linear to me…

Another reason why I suggest this is, that I dont like the “uneven“ numbers (for example -23% or -59%)… yes, i am picky and over-particular, but hey, I am german, thats my nature and i have to :-D

And btw, I think the “smooth“ numbers are more pleasant to read in the tooltips =)

If you dont want tot hink about this changings, just forget this post :-P

Those uneven numbers are there not by mistake but by careful counting. It must correspond with other features of this mod or otherwise it could break the gameplay balance.

[dmboss]

TODAY'S 3rd UPDATE:

I know it might be annoying to be continuously downloading newer updates, but know it's a step forward and also all updates are savegame compatible.

This update is all about hordes:

+ Hordes now have -50% discount on non-mercenary unit upkeep. They also have -75% discount on non-mercenary unit upkeep when encamped or raiding.

This allows them to keep up with the non-hordic nations. It simulates them as moving hordes of great numbers of people who take what they see on their way. The hordes are not just armies but more importantly lots of ordinary people (migrating nations, not armies).

[dmboss]

Here's a sugestion:

keep the current upkeep line, meaning the higher the imperium, the cheaper it is to maintain a unit, but invert unit cost, so at lower imperium its actually cheap to build those primitive units you start with and you get to make a large enough army to sack some cities, then disband due to lack of gold, save some, and build again for more raiding. While higher imperium units get much more expensive to build, so larger empires may be able to maintain larger number of armies, but they will suffer to replace lost troops. Recruitment slots dont need to be affected by imperium in my opinion, the system I like best is one slot per each city in a region, but dont know how that works now with the hordes and stuff.

I think this would really handicap the bigger nations which is the exact opposite of what I'm trying to achieve here. Good idea in theory, but bad in practice.

Also about the recruitment slots, everything corresponds with other features of Imperialem and also in the vanilla, there are like 3 or 4 base recruitment slots per province, this system gives only one to the first level faction (plus traits and building effects) and you get what vanilla offers once you get to the 3rd or 4th level. In order to survive for the big empire to keep up with many angry nations uniting against it it has to recruit more men so it can defend the land on several fronts at the same time. This is crucial an one of the major effects of this mod - to keep it real, not to give every small barbarian faction same amount of money and soldiers. No empire wouldn't ever existed if it was limited to the same way of economical and military treatments as way smaller enemies. When the enemies unite, then they can overhaul the big empire, but not just one by one.

[MajorPager]

Hey dmboss, just a heads up, your "Standard Version" also has 12 TPY.

Happen to catch my earlier message dmboss? Kinda odd that it has 12 TPY in the Standard mod (meaning vanilla 4 TPY?)

[dmboss]

Happen to catch my earlier message dmboss? Kinda odd that it has 12 TPY in the Standard mod (meaning vanilla 4 TPY?)

Actually I have two versions: Standard AND Standard 12 TPY

[dmboss]

UPDATE:

+ Hordes now have -50% discount on non-mercenary unit upkeep when raiding. This allows them to keep up with the non-hordic nations. It simulates them as moving horde of great number of people who take what they see on their way. The hordes are not just armies but more importantly lots of ordinary people (migrating nations, not armies).

+ Nations like Huns in vanilla got -100% upkeep trait, now it's decreased to -20% upkeep

+ New BETA version with inversed recruitment cost (see below)

(BETA) Standard version with inversed recruitment costs (TRY IT and leave feedback)

This version is purely experimental. It's based on an idea of one of you (Peregrinus) and he suggests to make a version which increases recruitment cost with imperium levels.
This version has upkeep efects same as the regular versions, but the recruitment costs are inversed (see graph).

Here's a sugestion:

keep the current upkeep line, meaning the higher the imperium, the cheaper it is to maintain a unit, but invert unit cost, so at lower imperium its actually cheap to build those primitive units you start with and you get to make a large enough army to sack some cities, then disband due to lack of gold, save some, and build again for more raiding. While higher imperium units get much more expensive to build, so larger empires may be able to maintain larger number of armies, but they will suffer to replace lost troops. Recruitment slots dont need to be affected by imperium in my opinion, the system I like best is one slot per each city in a region, but dont know how that works now with the hordes and stuff.

[Peregrinus]

Thank you for the alternate version, I'll start a new game to test this later today for sure

[Cope]

I understand. Still don't think there is a problem. WRE starts stronger than barbarians, but once they unite against WRE, Romans are going to be in a lot of trouble. Imperialem doesn't help stronger factions, it only gives them some time to balance their economy and stand a proper defensive position. Yes you can choose a version that helps Romans, but still it only prevents destroying half the WRE in first 5-10 turns...

Right but you're missing that having factions like the Ostrogoths (and other hordes) start off with -4000 income makes them vastly under powered. It means that you are forced to delete one of your armies which aside from rendering them a non-horde, makes it artificially difficult to do anything since not only is your only real target the now empowered WRE, but you are also chased all over the map by the Huns due to the fact that CA couldn't code a decent CAI. As others have suggested, it might be better to tweak the balance somewhat so that the lower imperium factions aren't nerfed as hard to the point where they are forced to delete their starting armies.

[dmboss]

Right but you're missing that having factions like the Ostrogoths (and other hordes) start off with -4000 income makes them vastly under powered. It means that you are forced to delete one of your armies which aside from rendering them a non-horde, makes it artificially difficult to do anything since not only is your only real target the now empowered WRE, but you are also chased all over the map by the Huns due to the fact that CA couldn't code a decent CAI. As others have suggested, it might be better to tweak the balance somewhat so that the lower imperium factions aren't nerfed as hard to the point where they are forced to delete their starting armies.

Leving, I already released an update containing upkeep discount for hordes. You don't need to explain me these things, I know 'em.

"Hordes now have -50% discount on non-mercenary unit upkeep when raiding. This allows them to keep up with the non-hordic nations. It simulates them as moving horde of great number of people who take what they see on their way. The hordes are not just armies but more importantly lots of ordinary people (migrating nations, not armies)."

[dmboss]

(BETA 2) Standard version with more exponential inversed recruitment costs (TRY IT and leave feedback)

This version is also purely experimental. It's also based on an idea of one of you (Peregrinus) and he suggests to make a version which increases recruitment cost with imperium levels.

This version has upkeep efects same as other versions, but the recruitment costs are inversed (see graph). In contrast with BETA 1, this one has different and more slope adjustments. The recruitment cost on level 1 is -66% of default, while on level 7 it 3x the default.

This approach more simulates low level mustering farmers with mostly poor personal equipment, while more you level up the more likely you run out of men who own this equipment and are actually trained already. So you have to pay for their stuff and skill.

[Junaidi83 de Bodemloze]

In simple word, the bigger the size of imperium the less unit able to recruit by its faction, hmm more like BYRGRIME reality on stainless steel, you use that idea mate ? :p

[dmboss]

In simple word, the bigger the size of imperium the less unit able to recruit by its faction, hmm more like BYRGRIME reality on stainless steel, you use that idea mate ? :p

Nope, but that must be the reason why it reminded me of SS.

BTW, the two BETA versions are just for testing. I don't know yet if I'm gonna implement one or the other into the base mod. It's up to you.

Do you like the standard, beta 1 or beta 2? I'm personally voting for BETA 2 to be implemented into the six standard versions.

[Delicate Strawberry]

Sorry if it's been mentioned before, or if you did it intentionally, but the Roman emergents get the double garrison too. Is that because of the buildings they took over? Or the roman building tree in general?

I'd also go for the Beta 2 version, by the sound of it, it would be the worth implementing. Going to try it out soon.

[Go0lden_Archer]

Nope, but that must be the reason why it reminded me of SS.

BTW, the two BETA versions are just for testing. I don't know yet if I'm gonna implement one or the other into the base mod. It's up to you.

Do you like the standard, beta 1 or beta 2? I'm personally voting for BETA 2 to be implemented into the six standard versions.

On standart ver., I find it really hard to maintain my income positive atm, with Intimidating imperium. Hunns attacking my eastern borders, and WRE attacking western, and because of that PO goes deep down below fine in most of east/west-ern regions as immigrants % keep rising, and plus it's all on VH so there're other problems with PO
Basically, it's a nightmare for me already, so I'm not really sure I want it to be even worse, cuz of unit prizes doubled from where I'm now, tho I'm up for a challenge, if you'll decide to implement it

[Cope]

Leving, I already released an update containing upkeep discount for hordes. You don't need to explain me these things, I know 'em.

"Hordes now have -50% discount on non-mercenary unit upkeep when raiding. This allows them to keep up with the non-hordic nations. It simulates them as moving horde of great number of people who take what they see on their way. The hordes are not just armies but more importantly lots of ordinary people (migrating nations, not armies)."

Yes, thanks for this update. Good stuff I will test it out

[dmboss]

Sorry if it's been mentioned before, or if you did it intentionally, but the Roman emergents get the double garrison too. Is that because of the buildings they took over? Or the roman building tree in general?

I'd also go for the Beta 2 version, by the sound of it, it would be the worth implementing. Going to try it out soon.

It's because of Roman buildings and units. Basically all Roman units in garrisons get doubled, so the Roman rebels as well. They simply copy Romans, because they are Romans but also rebels who want to have their own state.

[dmboss]

On standart ver., I find it really hard to maintain my income positive atm, with Intimidating imperium. Hunns attacking my eastern borders, and WRE attacking western, and because of that PO goes deep down below fine in most of east/west-ern regions as immigrants % keep rising, and plus it's all on VH so there're other problems with PO
Basically, it's a nightmare for me already, so I'm not really sure I want it to be even worse, cuz of unit prizes doubled from where I'm now, tho I'm up for a challenge, if you'll decide to implement it

Archer, look at the graph for the BETA 2 and you'll see that recruitment cost will actually be: On level 1 -66% of default, while on level 7 it 3x the default. This means you're about to pay less for the recruitment than before, but once you get on the 5th level, the recruitment cost becomes higher, but by that time you'll already have a sufficient economy.

Leveling up mean less upkeep = more maintainable units, but more recruitment cost which is okay later when you already make more money from less upkeep, better buildings, more recources, traits, GDP, trade...

So I recommend you to read the BETA 2 description carefully. Basically BETA 2 makes it a bit easier for levels 1-4 and harder (but not much since you already have good economy) for 5-7 (but not much since you already have good economy).

[Peregrinus]

Yes this sounds good, and maybe this could work side-by-side with another mod that changes the economy to make it more challenging for big empires.

dmboss, one other ideia, is it possible to mod recruitment times (in mass, not per unit)? In a way that as a faction rises in imperium, units also start to take more time to build, together with more expensive. I dont think its necessary to make it faster for low imperium, most units already only take 1 turn, but it could max at 4x in highest imperium.