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Thread: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

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    Default [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Infantry Preview – Macedon & Epirus

    First preview of Hellenic Overhaul hits the forum! Due to size of the Hellenic Overhaul, it would have been either too big or too simplified if shown in one take. On top of that we are still working on some improvements so certain stuff can (and most likely will) change.
    Why did the overhaul happen in the first place? Hellenic warfare is my personal favorite and I just didn’t feel that armies of Greeks, Macedonians and others were complete but it would have been a lie if I would claim that I was the only one who had this sentiment as the whole team agreed that improvements can be made.

    Before the overhaul a lot of Hellenic factions were very similar to each other (Like Epirus and Macedon) or had stereotypical and outdated rosters (Macedon). Last months were full of doing lots of research and brainstorming different solutions. Main goal was to make those factions more unique, with trying to get as close to the sources as possible and taking away redundant units. Hopefully our users will feel that we kept true to those words.

    This preview will be focused on infantry of Epirus and Macedon but before I will move more into details I need to give a big thank you to Dresden! I can’t imagine doing this update without him. He implemented every single new unit and other changes, often uploading full roster overhaul the day after I’ve posted info on it, later he would always patiently change every little detail until I was happy with the result. Dresden is the man!

    Now to the preview!

    1. New approach to reforms and unit progression.

    While reforms will happen the same way and with similar outcome, we wanted to show the progression in a bit better way. Terms like Thureos and Thorax reforms are obviously not specific events in time but rather lose naming of longer changes overtime. So what is that new approach? Before any reform will happen, Hellenic armies will display more “old fashioned” equipment with poorly equipped levies and few elites. Thureos reform is commonly attributed to the influence of Celtic invasion or Pyrrhus campaign in Italy, but I’ve also found reliefs showing Thracian warriors from IV BC using Thureos like shields. I think that all of that and some other factors introduced an incentive to change.

    Obviously it didn’t happen overnight but it will affect some factions in a different way. Epirus is such faction as due to exposure in Italian Campaign, it will start with Thureos reform from start (but with few “old fashioned” units for first few turns). Some more info about Epirus and their specifics will be included in Cavalry Preview. Overall goal of Thureos reform is to increase quality and quantity of light and medium units. Thorax reform puts bigger emphasis on quantity of heavy but more flexible units. While reform is usually attributed to influence of Romans, I think it had bigger emphasis on their tactics rather than simply putting mail armor on every soldier; especially that Greeks had contact with that armor as long or even longer than the Romans. With that in mind, remade Thorax units more diverse look. Mail armor (With some neat textures added) is still their most distinct equipment but they also display cuirasses, linothoraxes etc. What should be kept in mind is that reform does not always mean improvement of existing stuff but sometimes also large change of tactics and unit focus, like Macedonian cavalry moving from shock to ranged tactics.

    2. Evolution of Light Infantry.

    Lighter units are now more varied and have their own progression. Main changes are for Peltasts and Euzonoi, rest has mostly cosmetics like new tunics. Due to sometimes vague info, mistakes in sources or their translation, there might be some liberties (also depending on your personal view of the matter) here and there. Euzonoi were generic light infantry of Greek armies and this is how they fight now, they have large numbers and poor equipment, they should be used as support units or if you face lack of population for better units. Psiloi Akontistai also display new look with not everyone in the unit using a shield as they use speed for protection. Nevertheless, they are very cheap and can do some damage if used well.

    So called Iphicratean Peltasts are now base version of that unit, their name is rather loose reference to their origin rather than direct continuation of his legacy. As equipment they use javelins, very long spears and small shields. Some of them also use some armor. They are a lot more reliable than Euzonoi but of smaller unit size. Both units change their equipment a bit. Euzonoi use Thureos shields and better weapons as the government provides them. They still lack proper skills and training but their staying power is improved. Iphicratean Peltasts become current Peltasts after that reform, so they get Thureos shields, swords and better armours. Some factions have third tier of them in Thorax reform.

    3. Less Pikes = Bigger variation?

    Yes, as awkward as it sounds, that is the new approach. Different factions have different take on pike units, with the biggest variety being added for Macedon. How does it work? Previously in DeI, Antigonid phalanx did not resemble the one described in the sources, from their regiment names to their function on the field. Basic pike unit of Antigonids and some others was called Bronze Shields; they were well equipped and drilled but lacked the discipline of elites. They use very long sarissa and their shields are a bit bigger than before. Their primary function is to hold the line.

    Basilikoi Peltastai Phalangitai (They were just called Peltasts but distinction had to be made for mod files) are a regiment of the guard or “young guard” as I like to call them due to maximum age of 35. Their equipment is different than the one on Bronze Shields as their pikes are shorter and their shields smaller (interesting note, despite being part of the elite, their shields looked rather simple, plain bronze). All that probably gave them better mobility on the field. They also fought out of phalanx but due to game and AI limitations, they have separate version for that called Basilikoi Peltastai, fighting as agile melee infantry.

    Last regiment of the guard is Agema. They are absolute elite among all Macedonian units, well armed, disciplined and as history shown, willing to fight till the last man. Agema were picked from the best of already elite Peltastai, maximum age was 45-50 years. While they still use shorter sarissa and smaller shields, their heavier armor and age is slowing them down a bit. They combine great defense of Bronze Shields with great attack of Peltastai, which means they can perform both roles but do not excel in each, while having the best morale of them all. They also have out of phalanx version called Hypaspistai Agematos (Shield bearers of the Agema), sporting rather heavy equipment as they were sometimes first to storm the walls.

    Overall, Guard Phalanx numbered 5000, of which 2000 were Agema and 3000 being Peltasta.

    What is the difference between long and short sarissa units? Long ones are more of a defensive unit, with their slow movement and high protection but they lack ability to kill their enemies fast and are going to die fast due to flanking. Short pike units lack the defense to hold the line for prolonged time but they are also able to mow down their enemies, even those armored ones, they also move with a lot more speed. Agema is unique due to taking from both as they have good defense and attack but they lack speed and overall protection. Nonhellenic pike units like those of Germanic factions will also now sport short pikes (shorter than short sarissa of Agema and Peltastai) so they will look and fight in more plausible way, like soldiers with very long spears but not like Hellenes.

    4. Hoplites

    DeI timeframe is already a time of Hoplites decline but that does not mean they are weak or meant to disband. Still, their current portrayal was all over the place. Previously, hoplites had this distinction: levy, ekdromoi, regular, thureos, thorax and elites. Problem is that no such thing as thureos hoplites existed (as thureos shield was not meant for hoplite combat in phalanx) and thorax hoplites are to be replaced by Thorakitai.

    This leaves us with this division:
    Levy – cheap and poorly equipped hoplites but their phalanx ability gives them good staying power for their price.
    Ekdromoi – hoplites performing ekdromos fought out of phalanx to chase away skirmishers and secure valuable positions for rest of the phalanx. Their mortal enemies are Iphicratean Peltasts.
    Regular – typical citizen hoplites, they use good equipment but their training is subpar as during those times, combat was left to mercenaries and small elite troops.
    Elites – best of citizen troops, while they were small in number, they were closest to professional troops that City States could provide. They trained constantly, were well drilled and equipped with best equipment.

    5. Units
    5.1. Macedon


    Agema:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Hypaspistai Agematos:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Basilikoi Peltastai Phalangitai:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Basilikoi Peltastai:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Chalkaspides:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Thorakitai Chalkaspides:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Hoplitai Makedonikoi:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Hypaspistai Somatophykales:
    Somatophykales were Royal Bodyguards (there were only few of them, for example Alexander had only 7 Royal Bodyguards) and each of them had a unit of Hypaspistai at his command. Those elite soldiers are unique general bodyguard unit of the Macedon
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Euzonoi:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Leukaspides Makedonikoi
    While they were mostly displayed as pike unit, from current research they were in fact Thracians and Celts fighting for Macedon and equipped by the state.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Thorakitai
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Iphikratous Peltastai:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    5.2. Epirus

    Chaonon Agema:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Chalkaspides:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Thorakitai Chalkaspides:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Hoplitai Epirotoi:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Basilikoi Molossoi Synodoi:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Doryphoroi Epirotoi:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Haploi Epirotoi:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Agrianoi Pelekephoroi:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Agrianoi Peltastai:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Thesprotoi Pheraspidai
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Thesprotoi Thorakitai Pheraspidai
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    5.3. Shared and AoR Units:

    Politai Hoplitai:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Ekdromoi Hoplitai:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Psiloi Akontistai
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Psiloi Toxotai:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Psiloi Sphendonetai:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Peltastai:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Thureophoroi:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Euzonoi Thureophoroi:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Thorakitai Doryphoroi:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Leukaspides Tarantinoi:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Credits:
    Dresden - for being the most patient and hard working modder I've ever had a pleasure to work with
    Augustusng - for continuous and dedicated work on fixing my spelling error and writing unit descriptions
    Total War Hellas - for beautiful assets, which made this overhaul really special!
    Maetharin and Tenefire Boy - for pitching me great ideas and solutions
    If I missed anyone, feel free to remind me
    Last edited by KAM 2150; March 12, 2017 at 06:18 PM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Excellent!

  3. #3
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    What a quality work...!!!
    Congrats guys...You're doing it right, as always !!!

    Cheers

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    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Love it, great job!
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    I forgot how big this preview was and this is just the infantry - wait until you see the cavalry!

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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    So we are going to have "hoplon" and dori spear units that just dont have a phalanx mode? (making these "out of phalanx" units).

    And then have basically the same unit that actually HAS a phalanx ability?

    Thats what it sounds like with some of these.. like the Hypaspistai Agematos? Hoplon-wielding spear units that would sometimes fight in phalanx, but other times not?

  7. #7

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Excelent work and im looking forward to seeing official release of 1.2 update :-) But theres 1 thing which i consider as a history lover and reenactor as a big mistake in your units appearence ( not every unit but for example in this review there are some units). Im talking about bracers...Why do you guys using them? Theres really no evidence for them and theyre just product of modern hoollywood pop culture and its sad for me that i see them in a mod which i like and which says that mod is trying to be historically accurate in every way..

  8. #8
    Decanus
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Yesssssssssssssss!

  9. #9
    Willhelm123's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Very nice, seems a lot more uniform in theme without being an actual uniform, just not so random as before, and much more historical.
    AE Dev, mainly units

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    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Quote Originally Posted by KYREAPER View Post
    So we are going to have "hoplon" and dori spear units that just dont have a phalanx mode? (making these "out of phalanx" units).

    And then have basically the same unit that actually HAS a phalanx ability?

    Thats what it sounds like with some of these.. like the Hypaspistai Agematos? Hoplon-wielding spear units that would sometimes fight in phalanx, but other times not?
    Not really, all hoplon units, except Ekdromoi, fight in phalanx formation. There is just no other way to make Ekdromoi fight like Ekdromoi inside the game engine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nero Clavdivs Germanicvs View Post
    Excelent work and im looking forward to seeing official release of 1.2 update :-) But theres 1 thing which i consider as a history lover and reenactor as a big mistake in your units appearence ( not every unit but for example in this review there are some units). Im talking about bracers...Why do you guys using them? Theres really no evidence for them and theyre just product of modern hoollywood pop culture and its sad for me that i see them in a mod which i like and which says that mod is trying to be historically accurate in every way..
    We can easily take that one out I am not really into or against them.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post



    We can easily take that one out I am not really into or against them.

    That would be great cause its like a stab into my heart if I see them in my favourite RTW2 overhaull in which i see thats is trying to be historically accurate in every way except bracers :-)

  12. #12

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Quote Originally Posted by KYREAPER View Post
    So we are going to have "hoplon" and dori spear units that just dont have a phalanx mode? (making these "out of phalanx" units).

    And then have basically the same unit that actually HAS a phalanx ability?

    Thats what it sounds like with some of these.. like the Hypaspistai Agematos? Hoplon-wielding spear units that would sometimes fight in phalanx, but other times not?
    Some units have a phalanx and non-phalanx version to represent the different ways those units fought. KAM would be able to explain it better I am sure But also some of these are commander-only units as well.

    Edit- NM KAM already answered above
    Quote Originally Posted by Nero Clavdivs Germanicvs View Post
    Excelent work and im looking forward to seeing official release of 1.2 update :-) But theres 1 thing which i consider as a history lover and reenactor as a big mistake in your units appearence ( not every unit but for example in this review there are some units). Im talking about bracers...Why do you guys using them? Theres really no evidence for them and theyre just product of modern hoollywood pop culture and its sad for me that i see them in a mod which i like and which says that mod is trying to be historically accurate in every way..
    You have asked this before, you seem to be very bracer-focused I would have to ask you how do we know exactly if bracers were worn or not? Is that a specific thing mentioned in the sources? I don't know so I am just asking.

    Edit - I know the Roman issue with bracers and re-enactors but I don't know anything about the Greeks with bracers.
    Last edited by Dresden; March 12, 2017 at 04:16 PM.

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  13. #13

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Very good job guys, hats off!

    What i like most is the new approach to redefine late period Hellenistic army structure. It's gonna be a refreshing experience for the many.

    Keep up the work

  14. #14
    Decanus
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Very excited to try out the Iphicratean Peltast. And I can't wait to see the new length phalanx sarissa in action for the specialized pike units. Really seems like you can get a system going where the long pikes hold on your left (for example) while your short pikes go aggressive on your right and rout the enemy infantry frontally. That will be a lot of fun to test out.

    I have greatly enjoyed my experience using the Scordisci 3m long pikes, so I have high hopes for these new iterations.

    Are the Macedon special pikes going to be a later development unlocked by a reform of sorts? Aka do I have to "grind" my way through part of a campaign to access them.

  15. #15
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Different factions have different take on pike units, with the biggest variety being added for Macedon.
    IŽm really curious now how youŽll handle the Seleucids and Ptolemies
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  16. #16

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Then what exactly are the Hypaspistai Agematos where you say "They also have out of phalanx version called Hypaspistai Agematos (Shield bearers of the Agema)" ?

    That was under pikes, these guys have the Hoplon shields and it looks like a dori spear. So are they spear hoplites? or pikemen without a phalanx? Sorry im confused, can you explain please?

    Thank you so much

  17. #17
    suras333's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Wow, awesome job!

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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Quote Originally Posted by KYREAPER View Post
    Then what exactly are the Hypaspistai Agematos where you say "They also have out of phalanx version called Hypaspistai Agematos (Shield bearers of the Agema)" ?

    That was under pikes, these guys have the Hoplon shields and it looks like a dori spear. So are they spear hoplites? or pikemen without a phalanx? Sorry im confused, can you explain please?

    Thank you so much
    They fight as Hoplite when not equipped for Pike Phalanx.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Make hellenics great again !

  20. #20
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Great work guys


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