[Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

[Geffalrus]

@KAM: Hey, could you walk me through some of the thinking on having the Peltast Pikes use smaller shields than the Bronze Shields? I've finally gotten around to constructing my own pelte based my readings of the sources and the analysis done in "Invincible Beast" by Christopher Matthew. The first thing that jumped out at me was that there wasn't a lot of wiggle room when it came to the diameter of the shield. In order to have the forearm go through a central porpax, the radius of the shield could not have been any larger than the length of the person's forearm. Or more specifically, the distance from the inner elbow joint to mid palm. Such a radius would allow the wielder to still grasp the pike, use one thumb to loop through the handgrip or antilabe, while still being sufficiently protected by the shield. Additionally, ensuring contact between the shield rim and pike would increase the stability of the shield during combat.

Thus, it seems unlikely that there would have been dramatic differences in shield size for anyone operating in a pike phalanx. The Royal Armor probably had some minor variations to deal with natural size differences between individual forearms, but not sure why that would translate to the Peltasts having noticeably smaller shields.

In summary, I was fine with the unit description right up until I started physically testing things myself, and then questions arose. Any insights you might provide would be greatly appreciated!

[Fluke]

@KAM: Hey, could you walk me through some of the thinking on having the Peltast Pikes use smaller shields than the Bronze Shields? I've finally gotten around to constructing my own pelte based my readings of the sources and the analysis done in "Invincible Beast" by Christopher Matthew. The first thing that jumped out at me was that there wasn't a lot of wiggle room when it came to the diameter of the shield. In order to have the forearm go through a central porpax, the radius of the shield could not have been any larger than the length of the person's forearm. Or more specifically, the distance from the inner elbow joint to mid palm. Such a radius would allow the wielder to still grasp the pike, use one thumb to loop through the handgrip or antilabe, while still being sufficiently protected by the shield. Additionally, ensuring contact between the shield rim and pike would increase the stability of the shield during combat.

Thus, it seems unlikely that there would have been dramatic differences in shield size for anyone operating in a pike phalanx. The Royal Armor probably had some minor variations to deal with natural size differences between individual forearms, but not sure why that would translate to the Peltasts having noticeably smaller shields.

In summary, I was fine with the unit description right up until I started physically testing things myself, and then questions arose. Any insights you might provide would be greatly appreciated!

Very interesting, looking forward to the replies.

[KAM 2150]

I've made few pics from the book I based it on.

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[♔Greek Strategos♔]

I've made few pics from the book I based it on.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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I also have that one. It contains solid sources.

[Geffalrus]

You know what, never mind. You're all so full of yourselves and incapable of entertaining alternate ideas that I'm no longer so sure of the quality of your historical analysis. Enjoy your "short pikes" that are based on a transcription error and an improper understanding of how shields work.

[FlashHeart07]

You know what, never mind. You're all so full of yourselves and incapable of entertaining alternate ideas that I'm no longer so sure of the quality of your historical analysis. Enjoy your "short pikes" that are based on a transcription error and an improper understanding of how shields work.

Dude. I know that sometimes stuff can be frustrating and the true meaning of a post be lost in translation and lead to heated discussions basically caused by minor misunderstandings. But you are not helping yourself and your ideas with this behaviour.
Stay chill. Continue, at least as much as you feel like, to argue for your ideas.
I dont ever think that any of us are unable to want changes we just need some solid references.
And in the end, we might still be in disagreement but your idea might have triggered others to pick up on it, perhaps as a submod or something.

Sendt fra min SM-G930F med Tapatalk

[KAM 2150]

Now what did I do outside of providing arguments and sources when asked for? Your behvaiour does not sound very mature.

[Ptolemaios Soter]

You know what, never mind. You're all so full of yourselves and incapable of entertaining alternate ideas that I'm no longer so sure of the quality of your historical analysis. Enjoy your "short pikes" that are based on a transcription error and an improper understanding of how shields work.

Well that escalated quickly:
"Hey, can you show me your sources?"
"Yeah, here they are [sources]."
"You eat babies."

@KAM and team, please know that despite a few trolls, most of us on the forums here really appreciate all of the DeI team's work, research, and responsiveness.

And for the record, I am also skeptical of short pikes, but I don't know as much of the history as others here, it seems clear that the sources are ambiguous and/or contradictory, and it makes a good game mechanic. So to the extent that it has a reasonable historical basis, I'm happy to roll with it.

[FlashHeart07]

Dont worry. We know that you all appreciate the mod and we despite of a few heated discussions we enjoy that we can still discuss. And it is something that only makes it better

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[quachandy99]

Wait what? How? And why he triggered? I mean Kam and the team did give their source and where and what page, you still give him hard time on it?

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

You know what, never mind. You're all so full of yourselves and incapable of entertaining alternate ideas that I'm no longer so sure of the quality of your historical analysis. Enjoy your "short pikes" that are based on a transcription error and an improper understanding of how shields work.

That hardly proves any of your points actually but anyway. I'm not sure what's your issue here. KAM just gave you proof for what you were talking. Anyway, ironical comments won't help you much as I'm sure you're aware. We're always happy to talk about sources-historical content and open to suggestions, if you could provide any background ofc

[Standard Nerd]

@Kam thank you so much for posting those pics from Secunda’s book. Now I’m really curious: What does Secunda write about the Leukaspides in the Antigonid army? Is he your inspiration for the Thracian and Celtic mercenaries with white shields?

[KAM 2150]

Yes, I even discussed it with him in his office He is writing a new book about armies of Epirus so maybe he will provide more info. I am about to hit the road in an hour so I won't be able to provide screens from the Leukaspides part until tomorrow.

[Sarkiss]

Yes, I even discussed it with him in his office He is writing a new book about armies of Epirus so maybe he will provide more info. I am about to hit the road in an hour so I won't be able to provide screens from the Leukaspides part until tomorrow.

you serious? is Sekunda teaching in Gdansk? i have his Hellenistic Infantry Reform in the 160s BC and it was published in Gdansk in 2006.

[KAM 2150]

I was quite surprised that he lives in Gdansk too He was my mentor/tutor during my PhD studies, at least before I quit them in order to pursue better job perspectives.

[Sarkiss]

I was quite surprised that he lives in Gdansk too He was my mentor/tutor during my PhD studies, at least before I quit them in order to pursue better job perspectives.

i like the three cities (my wife's from the area). did you study at university of Gdansk then? was was your PhD meant to be on, if you dont mind me asking? im a bit envious. Sekunda's conclusions are sometimes considered as somewhat controversial but he is also viewed as an original interpreter/thinker. i read his 'The Source: Pyrrhus and other writers at his court' in Ancient Warfare VI.4 a few weeks ago. a good summary.

[KAM 2150]

Yes, University of Gdansk it was I was supposed to write my PhD on Armies of Pontus but like I said, life had other plan for me Sekunda is great person, really funny and inteligent guy. What I like about him is that, while controversial at times, he is not a type of person who never admits to be wrong, which he does in few places in the book I posted above.

I wanted to post screens of the Leukaspides part but I forgot that there is an entire chapter dedicated to them and posting 20+ pages is a bit too much I highly recommend entire book.

[quachandy99]

I know is really late for this should DEI re-introduce Levy-pike something similar to native pike as Ptolomy roster to other 3 Major successors like Seleucid, Epirus and Macedon?

[KAM 2150]

Bronze Shields are levy pikes. Machimoi were also not levies as per badly trained, they were solid unit, just with smaller wealth to equip themselves on par with Macedonian settlers.

But I have one new AoR pike unit in mind for Macedonians, that is true with the sources.

[quachandy99]

Bronze Shields are levy pikes. Machimoi were also not levies as per badly trained, they were solid unit, just with smaller wealth to equip themselves on par with Macedonian settlers.

But I have one new AoR pike unit in mind for Macedonians, that is true with the sources.

oh god my source is really out of time Kam and have no Idea that Roman have similar army building way I meant like Legio = Levy (Legionary in our standard), can you recommend any good source material for successors kingdoms after Diadochi war and this is my sources that I use
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahfyIxLlbGA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahfyIxLlbGA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juH-ckrN-cQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdlKvZIHgMY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8DzzseqBMw&t=630s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDpORfsil0c