Georgian Army New Roster and New Units.

[Khevsur]

Brocken Crescent Georgian army is Non-historical !!!
Non-historical armour,helmets and roster...


This is Very Historical Georgian Roster and Units . Coming Soon .

Please replace it.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...nfo-and-units)

[Jurand of Cracow]

General thought: Broken Crescent is a marvel

I'm absolutely not so critical as Khevsur about the Georgian roster. I think the BC units are historically ok, and - even if they may be improved - they excell among other mods. There're some majors problems (Tadzreuli are thought to be related to the church, a kind of religious order troops, while they weren't; the Georgian Horse Archers shouldn't exists as HA were recruited from the Kypchaks and Alani etc.), but apart from this I find the roster immersive and historical. However, it seems Georgia is very, very strong on all important fronts (heavy cav, horse archers, archers, spearmen, swordsmen) what makes the game easier.
(but I admit being not so interested in the visual appearance of the units, helmets, armours and all of that)

Given the scarce manpower of the team (and almost all M2TW modding teams, to be frank), I don't think a major overhaul is need. I've played a dozen turns with Georgia and I've found some minor glitches - these should be fixed in the first place, I think. I've also got an idea for overhaul of the goals of the faction. Maybe it would be helpful from a Byzantineboy or Weekend General.

Issues spotted while playing Georgia:
* in general: there're perhaps too many units of all sorts. No weak side of the roster. The spearmen are in big numbers.
- Sohkumi - is a Large Town, but has the barracks level for a Minor City (City Watch instead of Town Guard);
- the highest level of barracks in cities lack Metsikhovne Spearmen (while the lower levels provide them);
- Georgian Horse Archers have unreasonably high upkeep (675), while similar units have 400, and heavy cav also 350-450; also Dismounted Georgian Horse Archers (price 1875, upkeep 425) are too expensive while compared to the other archers (like Metsichovne: 1600/275 with little difference in stats);
- Tadzreuli being a "templar" unit is obviously wrong, see here;
- typo in the title "Eristavi Cavalry"
- the event "Tamar and David Soslan" occured in my game but nothing happened beside an information. Tamar had to look for a husband irrespectively and David hasn't appeared (or I've played too short). Additionally, she had very bad character (Charm only 1).
Victory conditions (VCs) for Georgia
It find the VCs for Georgia are unhistorical, I think. Why would they go after the Kypchaks to the steppes? They're not a steppe nation.So for Georgia the VCs could be as follows:
- small victory (short game) - should signify uniting the Caucasian orthodox lands and getting the influence on the neighbouring steppes: from Maghas and Derbend to Edessa and Tabriz. Additionally, presence in the Holy Land should be required (Hierosolyma). The number of the settlments 20 is fine, but usually it doesn't matter (you get more than that due to the concrete province requirements). I think there's no need to include conditions to destroy factions, it will happen if needed.
- large victory (long game) - should signify taking over the rule of the middle-eastern Orthodox world (including most of the holy places) by the Georgians. Additionally to the small victory VCs it should include taking Constantinople with whole Anatolia, Antiocheia with Cilicia and Syria. Maybe also Crimea? The number of the settlments could be 40, but again it's not essential. Total subjugation of Byzantium and Cilicia would be required.

For a quick reference - the current intial roster for Georgia:

[Khevsur]

Jurand of Cracow


Sorry, you do not know Georgian Military history

Tazreuli is not religious warrior. Tazreuli is King's or Eristavi's Knight. . (Like houshold, дружина)

Aznauri is Georgian Feudal Knight, he is professional warrior. Aznaurs have Msakhureuli(sergeant) cavalry and sergeant infantry. Msakhureuli are basic warriors of Georgian army.

Monaspa is King's foreign and Georgian Cavalry, Regular paid warriors ( Cumans, Alans, Georgians, Kurds )

Georgian cavalry is not light, Georgian cavalry is very heavy knights cavalry (like Bizantine and khwarezmian cataphract) and medium sergeants cavalry.

Before Mongol invasion(Lets call it early period) Georgians didn't have horse archers. There were only Kipchak light horse archers. Georgians were fighting in European style - mounted shock combat with couched lance. In this period for Georgian Cavalry basic weapons were lance, straight sword, sometimes mace.



After Mongol invasion(Lets call it High period). Georgian cavalry used bow but not in nomadic style, they used it as a secondary weapon - shooting it before charging. In this period basic weapons of Georgian cavalry were lance, curved sword, mace and bow. Shock combat remained as a main fighting style. The same situation was after Timurid Invasion(Lets call it Late period). Main changes were in defensive equipment in these periods.

Georgian Infantry is Georgian western - Svans and Eastern - Mtiels(Khevsurs, Pshavs, Thushs, mokhevians, mthiuls) free highlanders. Also, castle guards - Metsikovne, Msakhureuli(sergeants), Peasants and King's Royal Guard - Chukhchi.
Kartlian spearmen Not historical Class. Kartlian Spearmen is Peasant.



In medieval times Georgia was a feudal kingdom with small but relatively strong and well equipped army. It was like a little island in Muslim ocean.
:sparta:

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hi Khevsur,
I think you've misunderstood me a bit.
In one part you've described exactly the same what I had written: Tazreuli are erronously presented and the Georgian Horse Archers should not be a unit in the mod.
In the other part you've described the exact shape of Georgian military in the Middle Ages. This very helpful. It's actually what I knew about the Georgian military. However, it misses the point of gaming. A game is not a book on military. It needs to provide fun and immersion for the players. And, first of all, it has to be done. Just plans are not playable - you need to have something to play with (witness never-finished mods like Tsardoms or Ad Mari a Mare or Dominion of the Sword). In the vanilla M2TW there was no place for Georgia. Broken Crescent filled this vacuum with the most and did it superbly, even if with many errors. But being roughly right is better than being totally wrong. A roster should be a possible approximation of what we know, what's possible and what's needed for the gameplay. To my mind the Georgian roster is doing comparatively well in this respect. There're heavy cavalry with lance, there're units called Monaspa, there're heavy archers and heavy swordsmen. Sometimes the names are not correct but there's nothing like in the vanilla RTW: Egiptian chariots of 15c. BC in the Ptolemaic army of 3c. BC, or in the SSHIP like Lithuanian Archers in the Polish roster (recritable in the castles like 500 km from Lithuania).
So do I stick to my opinion: it's a comparatively good roster. I may just modified this opinion adding that it's not "a small army" - there're many troops for Georgia, perhaps too many.
And, unfortunately, I would bet that the BC roster will never be modified. There're no moders to change it, I think.
JoC

PS. I don't agree that Georgia in the Middle Ages "was like a little island in Muslim ocean." There're muslims, christians, jews, zoroastrians and people believing in other gods. There're Armenians to the south, Albanians to the east, Greeks to the west, and Cherkassians and other people to the north. There're not all muslim at first, and only after some centuries they took over religion or just culture-without-religion. Politically it was also diverse, even if many medieval authors were obsessed with unity of the lands. My conclusion is: we shouldn't think of Caucasus and Armenian Highlands in Middle ages as a Muslims ocean with a Georgian chrisian island. This is a myth which fits nicely to todays imaginations of both Georgians and the Muslims.
Well, the myth of being "borderland, with enemy faith all around, defending the true faith" is present in many countries, not only Georgia. Ask Armenians, Poles or Hungarians. We're all alone defying the ocean. It's what we're taught at schools during biased history lessons from our nationalistic textbooks...

[Khevsur]

Jurand of Cracow
You have a problem?
I'm trying protect Historical accuracy
In Broken Crescent Georgian army is Non-historical.
you do not know Georgian Military history.
I know Georgian Military history.

Why are you fighting against me?

Georgia was christian island in Muslim ocean.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Khevsur,
I applaud your efforts to ensure the historical accuracy of the Georgian faction. Your input on the Georgian military on the SSHIP webpage is just great. However, i want to give the Broken Crescent mod creators their due. They've made the Georgian roster closer to history much more than rosters in the other versions of the M2TW (vanilla - no Georgia, Deus Lo Vult - much less historical etc.).
I keep my fingers crossed that we have a more historicalGeorgian roster in SSHIP, which can be used to upgrade the Broken Crescent's one.

On the map: it doesn't show/prove anything on the last point of the discussion (Georgia being an island in the Muslim ocean) for 3 reasons:
1. It doesn't show religious divisions, but political ones. It's not possible to infer from this map that there're Muslims all around Georgia (and I believe there weren't).
2. While it shows political divisions it doesn't show that Georgia was an island - actually it shows it was a part of the Timurs' empire bordering other lands in the north.
3. It shows a very particular moment - situation at the beginning of the last century of the Middle Ages (assuming that MA ends around 1453-1492). You cannot infer that "In medieval times Georgia ... was like a little island in Muslim ocean." It tells nothing on the most (maybe 90%) of the Middle Ages. And again - in the previous centuries Georgia was anything but such an island.
EDIT 2019: alas, as you may see the map is not available anymore.

I'm arguing for historical accuracy of the presentation of the situation in the South Caucasus region in the Middle Ages. This presentation impacts on the way we create mods. Georgia was not "an island" for most of the period. In particular, I think that the Armenian presence all around is underappreciated in the way the Georgians present their history. The Armenians (and earlier the Albanians) served as a significant obstacle in the spread of Islam in the region. Georgia benefited from this situation much.

I don't think there's any point in continuing this discussion. Everybody reading what's been already written can draw own conclusions.

[Tarsman of Ghor]

i love monaspa armor