Neo-Nazis arrested in Greece for terrorism.

[Abdülmecid I]

Relevant article.

The Greek police arrested five Neo-Nazis, blamed for a variety of criminal activities, ranging from arson to possession of drugs and explosive material (50 kg of ammonium nitrate). The suspects are basically considered responsible for tens of deadly attacks against political opponents (essentially far-leftist organisations) and immigrants. Unfortunately, Greece is no stranger to deadly attacks against leftists and immigrants, while they also vandalized Holocaust memorials with obscene and Antisemitic slogans (reminiscent of the recent case during a nationalist rally). Members of the Neo-Nazi party of the Golden Dawn, which boasts of a noteworthy presence in the country's Parliament since 2012, have already murdered one immigrant from Pakistan and a leftist singer, a crime for which the leader of the group has bravely accepted political responsibility.

However, paradoxically enough, the Nazis arrested are actually members of the notorious Combat-18, an international Neo-Nazi, originated from the United Kingdom but having expanded to other countries, Greece obviously included. The membership specializes into violent attacks against their enemies, ethnic and political, in collaboration with football hooligans and presumably any other thug available. The leader of the local version, Combat 18 Hellas, is alleged to be a gas station employee from a small city in the countryside. Apparently, hate-crimes are on the rise in poverty-stricken Greece, which paints a grim picture for the future. Golden Dawn may have been fragmented a bit (sometimes in a rather comical manner), thanks to the judicial procedure against them, following their murder of the leftist activist), but, as long as the economy remains stagnant and the income inequality intensifies, fascist demagogues can always exploit popular anger for votes and consequently influence.

In what concerns Greece specifically, the country may generally be somewhat more fragile to infatuation with Nazism, due to the fact that collaborators with the Germans were integrated into the establishment, instead of being appropriately punished for the atrocities they committed, in order to be deployed (interesting piece by Guardian about an obscure event of WWII) in the fight against the Communist partisans. That inevitably leads to superficially moderate and mainstream parties, as well state institutions (mainly those of a militaristic nature, like the police), being infiltrated with Nazism-sympathisers. Although I believe that the case of Combat-18 will be handled professionally, at least for public image purposes, the latter issue, when Neo-Nazis receive a disproportionately large support from police officers, should create many concerns about how impartially far-right violence is handled by the authorities.

So, should the increase of incidents involving far-right terrorism worry the Greek, American and European societies or Nazis still remain, despite the financial crisis of 2008, a marginal problem? Is the fact that Nazis, unlike their Salafist colleagues, seem to target exclusively leftists, immigrants and trade unionists a reason about why the phenomenon is generally neglected, in comparison with the hysteria about far less lethal controversies? In any case, regardless of the size of the threat, I think we can all agree that every form of non-state violence needs to be eradicated, as soon as possible. So, what measures do you suggest to not only cure but also prevent the "disease". Education and reform of the social security system look like a good start, but I believe that nothing will be solved permanently, until the economy recovers from its current flimsy state. Unfortunately, that's a vastly complicated issue, even if we only take into consideration the conflict of interests between different segments of the society.

[Aexodus]

I think there's a wider problem of political extremism, be they fascists or communists.

https://www.rt.com/news/420791-italy...rento-bombing/

If this keeps up the nuttiest elements of socialism and nationalism could be waging gang war on our streets, so the problem must tackled Head-on I believe. Nazism in Greece should be confronted, but there is a neccesary distinction between fascist Nazis and people who are simply right wing that must be made, however.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

good post btw, +rep

[fkizz]

Because Nazis, when the term meant something very serious, were finished in 1945. The rest are remains, including criminals LARPing under the banner. Nazism was defeated in WWII, that's the consensus. Comparing the criminals arrested to the whole Werhmacht+SS is like comparing an Ant to a Tiger in terms of danger assessment.

[Kyriakos]

I think there's a wider problem of political extremism, be they fascists or communists.

https://www.rt.com/news/420791-italy...rento-bombing/

If this keeps up the nuttiest elements of socialism and nationalism could be waging gang war on our streets, so the problem must tackled Head-on I believe. Nazism in Greece should be confronted, but there is a neccesary distinction between fascist Nazis and people who are simply right wing that must be made, however.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

good post btw, +rep

+1

Abdul certainly isn't the one to be making this distinction.
Timing is ... interesting... too

[HannibalExMachina]

Because Nazis, when the term meant something very serious, were finished in 1945. The rest are remains, including criminals LARPing under the banner. Nazism was defeated in WWII, that's the consensus. Comparing the criminals arrested to the whole Werhmacht+SS is like comparing an Ant to a Tiger in terms of danger assessment.

nazis were nazis years before they set out to conquer europe. facism is about as dead as racism, not at all.

[Aexodus]

Because Nazis, when the term meant something very serious, were finished in 1945. The rest are remains, including criminals LARPing under the banner. Nazism was defeated in WWII, that's the consensus. Comparing the criminals arrested to the whole Werhmacht+SS is like comparing an Ant to a Tiger in terms of danger assessment.

I'm sure Brüning and the 1932 German establishment thought similarly, of the Nazis with their paramilitary SA. Without radical communsim Nazis wouldn't have gotten quite the support in the North and East of the country as they did.

nazis were nazis years before they set out to conquer europe. facism is about as dead as racism, not at all.

How illuminating

[HannibalExMachina]

I'm sure Brüning and the 1932 German establishment thought similarly, of the Nazis with their paramilitary SA. Without radical communsim Nazis wouldn't have gotten quite the support in the North and East of the country as they did.

How illuminating

isnt it. almost like the nazis never emerged as a fully formed genocidal warmachine. which you basically agree with in the first part of your post. so, nazies were downplayed even before they got big. what could possibly go wrong with claiming facism is gone, i wonder.

and please, the transparent lie that communism caused nazism is so last millenium.

[Abdülmecid I]

+1

Abdul certainly isn't the one to be making this distinction.
Timing is ... interesting... too

I assure you, I didn't order the arrest of these criminals, so I am not responsible for the timing of the event. You should address your complaints to the Greek Law Enforcement force, which dared to do its job and protect the people, without taking into consideration taking into consideration the wider geopolitical context and the accompanying far-right paranoia. However, this attitude is very interesting and definitely part of the problem. Do you think that certain potentially embarrassing news should be suppressed for the sake of keeping the international image of the country/tribe/nation/football team and etc. intact? I am not a racist, so I don't believe that the crimes committed by these nationalists portray Greeks or right-wingers as a whole in a negative light. Collective guilt is a trait of the far-right, not mine. However, I understand that, according to a particular ethnocentric mindset, censorship may seem welcome, for the sake of the greater good (maintaining the image of an impeccable and morally stellar nation). Unfortunately, that leads to less exposure for Nazi crimes, which helps the terrorist gangs to continue or even expand their activities in obscurity, away from the public eye. Does it really serve Greece to hide the activity of Neo-Nazi gangs under the rug, because of being insecure about the international opinion? In my opinion, absolutely not, because, even from a practical perspective, murderous Nazis are more dangerous than a random Latvian/French/Israeli/Nepalese reader of the Jerusalem Post incorrectly assuming that Greece is currently dominated by Neo-Nazi groups. Genuinely curious to hear your thoughts and whether you are willing to recognize the threat and the evilness Neo-Nazi attacks in Greece represent.

[fkizz]

I'm sure Brüning and the 1932 German establishment thought similarly, of the Nazis with their paramilitary SA. Without radical communsim Nazis wouldn't have gotten quite the support in the North and East of the country as they did.

Yes, I fully agree. The scare of radical communism was a boost for NSDAP recruits in pre WWII.

nazis were nazis years before they set out to conquer europe. facism is about as dead as racism, not at all.

By that logic one should be expecting State issued Comissars to shoot retreating Communists who do one step back?
WWII is over, and Allied side won. If you have dream of shooting or being shot by Wehrmacht, you were born in the wrong age. "Nazis" are alive as much as "Russia did Cataluna and Brexit referendums". It's the boogeyman to keep your folks in line out of fear.

[athanaric]

How to stop the neo-Nazi phenomenon in Greece? Simple: stop illegal immigration, repatriate those who are illegally in the country, and do something about poverty and unemployment. Pretty sure that National Socialism (that's the name of the ideology, like it or not) and Fascism will decline into utter irrelevancy after that. Same for all other European countries, except Turkey and Russia, which already are Fascist dictatorships.

As for why this phenomenon is allegedly "ignored" (except by the entire left wing everywhere, who scream about it at every opportunity) - how exactly do you see fascists or neo-Nazis rise to actual power? They don't have the demographical means and the entire power structure in every part of the EU is rigged against them, at the expense of overlooking other threats btw. They can still do harm in a small and mean sort of way, as we've occasionally seen with innocent people getting killed, but they're not a strategic threat like other radicals. They're more like local separatists.

As for "education", well good luck there. Education didn't stop Antifa or the Salafists, so why should it stop Hitlerists and Fascists as long as they have so much political ammunition?

[Aexodus]

Right now, children as young as 11 across the country are being taught in schools to accept immigration. So they're definitely trying. I don't recall ever hearing an anti-immigration speaker platform at my secondary school.

So if 1 person in that hall disagrees, and they perceive no-one doing anything about the problem, the probability of joining an actual fascist group increases. Why? To take matters into their own hands, regardless of whether that's right or wrong. In their mind, the call to 'action' of Oswald Mosley types is more attractive than the alternative, since they're not encouraged to speak their mind given current 'hate-speech' laws. Or they believe their voice will go unheard, a great shame in the democracies that make up the western world.

So in other words, it can be simply irresponsible to suppress discourse, as it often leads to groups like these.

[Abdülmecid I]

How to stop the neo-Nazi phenomenon in Greece? Simple: stop illegal immigration

Any credible source that immigration, illegal or legal, is largely responsible for the rise of Neo-Nazi criminal activities? The fact that far-right extremists try to turn poor people against each other, by dividing society along ethnic and religious lines does not necessarily mean that immigration is what led to the increase of their political influence. Even in France, Le Pen received most of her support from the communities with the least contact with immigrants. In fact, immigration to Greece has dramatically declined since the mid-2000s, when the situation in Eastern Europe gradually stabilized. In 2012, the year of the great growth of the Golden Dawn is marked by the lowest percentage of immigration flow, according to the data of the Organisation of Economic Cooperation and Development.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[IMG]https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*9xXH0zixY6FcEevtbn_hiw.png[/IMG]

The same applies for crime statistics, as the reports of the police indicate:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I guess immigration numbers changed due to the refugee crisis, but funnily enough, the power of the Neo-Nazis stagnated, so I think we can safely rule out immigration, the most common scapegoat of the far-right, as at least a determining factor for the emergence of Neo-Nazi terrorism and activism. The same conclusion is true for the claim that family men turn into Nazi sociopaths, because they are scared about Communism. The percentage of the Communist Party of Greece, which indeed has a history of liquidating Nazis and their collaborators, during WWII and the subsequent Civil War, has remained the same. Even in what concerns post-WWI Germany, this excuse is basically a myth. The only contribution of Communism to the rise of Nazism was by encouraging the German elites to endorse Hitler and his ideology, in order to use them as a deterrent against labour movement and the Communist Party. Personally, I would blame Krupp rather than Stalin for that, but each on his own. On the other hand, modern Greece and Germany of the '30s share the common element of experiencing a severe financial crisis that crippled a fragile and politically immature lower middle-class. I know that attributing the cause of various phenomenons to material and social factors is considered unacceptable in the current environment, dominated by right-wing political correctness, but history tends to show otherwise, as Reinhold Niebuhr explained. After all, to mention again the French example, maybe it's not a coincidence that the National Front is particularly popular in the East, where society has not managed to transform from deindustrialisation to a service-oriented economy.

(which it does not; who cares about the very few neo-nazis here; they mean nothing at all).

Since we both agree it does not, why are you so upset about a thread in a "sub-forum which is not the center of the world". To repeat my question, should we really pretend that everything is rosy for the sake of not harming the international image of the beloved nation? Nowhere have I accused the Greek state or people of being secret Nazis, so I am afraid I am not going to adopt the politically correct approach of censoring disturbing news, in order to create the false impression that everything is fine. Anyway, I believe many are concerned, such as the groups threatened by Neo-Nazi terrorism (leftists, trade unionists, immigrants and etc.), the victims (those who have not been killed) and the persons they care about them. After all, these victims are significantly more than all these inevitable wars in the Balkans we keep hearing about, but never seem to occur. Hateful nationalists have managed to dehumanize all these social categories, by treating them as insects unworthy of protection, but I am not one of them. If you notice that I attack Greek, Portuguese, German, Turkish or Russian nationalism, maybe it would be more logical to assume that I am motivated by an antipathy towards tribalism, rather than my alleged national identity.

[athanaric]

Any credible source that immigration, illegal or legal, is largely responsible for the rise of Neo-Nazi criminal activities? The fact that far-right extremists try to turn poor people against each other, by dividing society along ethnic and religious lines does not necessarily mean that immigration is what led to the increase of their political influence. Even in France, Le Pen received most of her support from the communities with the least contact with immigrants. In fact, immigration to Greece has dramatically declined since the mid-2000s, when the situation in Eastern Europe gradually stabilized. In 2012, the year of the great growth of the Golden Dawn is marked by the lowest percentage of immigration flow, according to the data of the Organisation of Economic Cooperation and Development.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[IMG]https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*9xXH0zixY6FcEevtbn_hiw.png[/IMG]

The same applies for crime statistics, as the reports of the police indicate:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I guess immigration numbers changed due to the refugee crisis, but funnily enough, the power of the Neo-Nazis stagnated, so I think we can safely rule out immigration, the most common scapegoat of the far-right, as at least a determining factor for the emergence of Neo-Nazi terrorism and activism. The same conclusion is true for the claim that family men turn into Nazi sociopaths, because they are scared about Communism. The percentage of the Communist Party of Greece, which indeed has a history of liquidating Nazis and their collaborators, during WWII and the subsequent Civil War, has remained the same. Even in what concerns post-WWI Germany, this excuse is basically a myth. The only contribution of Communism to the rise of Nazism was by encouraging the German elites to endorse Hitler and his ideology, in order to use them as a deterrent against labour movement and the Communist Party. Personally, I would blame Krupp rather than Stalin for that, but each on his own. On the other hand, modern Greece and Germany of the '30s share the common element of experiencing a severe financial crisis that crippled a fragile and politically immature lower middle-class.

I can assure you that there were plenty of illegal immigrants in Greece in 2012, and their presence was felt by the native population. Ever been to Athens, the city that houses about a third of the country's population? You really should know better than to assume that illegal immigration wasn't a big issue in Europe before 2015. It aleady started in the 1980s.
And of course people in the poor rural areas react more sensitively. They're already on the brink, why should anyone assume that they want more competition, especially in the form of alien young men? Just because they're farmers or unemployed country bumpkins doesn't mean they're retarded.

I know that attributing the cause of various phenomenons to material and social factors is considered unacceptable in the current environment, dominated by right-wing political correctness, but history tends to show otherwise,

I think it's ludicrous to assume that the current environment were dominated by "right-wing political correctness". Unless you mean critical race theory and gender terror by that (which has done plenty do estrange old school leftists, as it divides actually existing societies along the lines of race, sex, skin colour etc.). Academia and "polite discourse" here in the "West" are dominated by neo-Marxist race and gender ideologues. Do you want me to recount all the absurd notions I've encountered among scholars and other academics, not to mention the rest of affluent society (even among some scientists and historians)? Maybe it's different in Greece or Turkey, but not in most "Western" countries.

Of course poverty is a huge factor. That's why I mentioned it. The problem is that you people are routinely denying that there are any other essential factors, such as cultural tradition, intense tribalism (largely responsible for organized crime), and religious influence.

[Heathen Hammer]

People become Neo-Nazis for the same reason people became OG "Nazis" - their governments only served rich minorities and sucked for everyone else. Who would have thought that if you would commit every mistake Weimar republic did, you would end up like it?

[ioannis76]

Actually, the "terrorism" Combat 18 members were arrested for, was attacks on Anarchist take-overs of buildings (illegal take overs, of course) as well as Anarchist "gathering houses":

Σύμφωνα με τις πρώτες πληροφορίες, πρόκειται για άτομα που συμμετέχουν σε ακροδεξιές ομάδες και θεωρούνται ύποπτοι για τις επιθέσεις σε στέκια αναρχικών, σε καταλήψεις και στην πρόσφατη επίθεση στη «Φαβέλα».

Πηγή: Μεγάλη επιχείρηση της Αντιτρομοκρατικής σε Αθήνα και επαρχία -Εξι συλλήψεις ακροδεξιών | iefimerida.gr

http://www.iefimerida.gr/news/400671...eis-akrodexion
Translating: According to early information, those arrested are persons who participate in Extreme-Right groups and are considered suspect for attacks in Anarchist Haunts and Anarchist take-overs, as well as the recent attack on the "Favela" anarchist Haunt.

[PFElton]

If immigrants don't like being attacked by National Socialists, they should leave. They have no rights in Greece. GREEKS have rights in Greece.

[PointOfViewGun]

If immigrants don't like being attacked by National Socialists, they should leave. They have no rights in Greece. GREEKS have rights in Greece.

Nazis can attack anyone they wish in Greece as long as the Nazis are Greek?

[Aexodus]

Nazis can attack anyone they wish in Greece as long as the Nazis are Greek?

I believe he'a referring to the fact that if mass illegal immigration wasn't a problem, alt-right groups like actual Nazis wouldnt exist. Increased social tension caused by millions of foreigners transgressing on Greek soil will always birth PFF's sentiment as a natural reaction. Every. Single. Time.

[Magnum_Opus]

Radical Neo Nazis are a response to the radical progressives, and they're quite stupid at that, because it's as if they accept the narrative of the progressives and their false dichotomy between racists vs anti racists, and set themselves to be the bad guy on the progressives' scale.

[Aexodus]

A hundred times this^