Israel kills 45, thousands wounded, in Gaza during protests

[Kyriakos]

I think you are aware of what happens when Hamas operatives get through the fence. I think you're also aware that Hamas is a militant group at war with Israel. Anyone armed who enters the demilitarized zone established by the Oslo Accords is considered a combatant. Anyone who tries to break through the fence knows the risks. That said, it may come to light that some Israeli snipers were not following the rules of engagement.

If so, then Lieberman was probably right as to why he was shot, since those drones have been used by Hamas as weapons. Although I thought the claim was that there was no drone at the time.

There are multiple stabbing attacks against Israelis every week. I doubt it even makes the news outside Israel. Before the fence, there were bombing attacks every week. That's why the fence matters. Hamas and the various other Jihadi groups are at war with Israel. People die in wars. I think it's pretty tragic when Palestinians are caught in the crossfire, but those who choose to make themselves martyrs, I can't get upset about. I may be somewhat biased by the fact that most would kill me and anyone in my family just because of our ethnicity, or by the fact I've been at the scene of terror attacks shortly after they happened.

I think that jewish people are able to see how more violence won't solve this. I do sympathize. Some great minds were jewish, including F. Kafka, my all-time favourite author
It is exactly due to the fact that jewish people can think of something better than the current plan, that they should aspire more to that direction. As i noted, no one is saying that Israel doesn't face many serious external threats - most countries, eg in Europe, do not. But surely there can be a better way to deal with those. I hope it will happen.

[Chukada1]

Israel reaps what it sows.

Israel is pursuing a failed policy. Imagine if the Europeans came to the New World, and the inhabitants were resistant to all of the European diseases, and also could manufacture more weapons and recruit more troops than the colonizers. Colonization would be a stupid thing to do.

But here we have Israel, a country surrounded by Arab nations, outnumbered and outgunned, trying to colonize the Levant

...

Gee I wonder why Israel is facing existential threats.

[Prodromos]

Israel reaps what it sows.

Israel is pursuing a failed policy. Imagine if the Europeans came to the New World, and the inhabitants were resistant to all of the European diseases, and also could manufacture more weapons and recruit more troops than the colonizers. Colonization would be a stupid thing to do.

But here we have Israel, a country surrounded by Arab nations, outnumbered and outgunned, trying to colonize the Levant

...

Gee I wonder why Israel is facing existential threats.

So you're saying that the reason Israel is threatened is because it is Jewish? Well, yeah. I mean, when you talk about Israeli colonization, you are not talking about Israeli Arabs, are you? In that case why not just say Jewish colonists, since apparently Israelis are okay so long as they aren't Jews?

[Chukada1]

So you're saying that the reason Israel is threatened is because it is Jewish? Well, yeah. I mean, when you talk about Israeli colonization, you are not talking about Israeli Arabs, are you? In that case why not just say Jewish colonists, since apparently Israelis are okay so long as they aren't Jews?

In my opinion Israel and Palestine needs a one country system, where Palestinians are equal citizens.

and seeing how Israel has dehumanized the Palestinian people, they have a lot of work to do re-humanizing them.

Colonization is not working for Israel. It will come back to bite them.

[Derpy Hooves]

That journalist killed in Gaza? He was actually a member of Hamas
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...ctivist-549349

[nhytgbvfeco2]

But here we have Israel, a country surrounded by Arab nations, outnumbered and outgunned, trying to colonize the Levant

We didn't come here to "colonize the levant". We came here because this is our home. Our only home, and we've no where else to go.

[Copperknickers II]

Israel reaps what it sows.

Israel is pursuing a failed policy. Imagine if the Europeans came to the New World, and the inhabitants were resistant to all of the European diseases, and also could manufacture more weapons and recruit more troops than the colonizers. Colonization would be a stupid thing to do.

But here we have Israel, a country surrounded by Arab nations, outnumbered and outgunned, trying to colonize the Levant. Gee I wonder why Israel is facing existential threats.

Now imagine that the 'Europeans' in question were actually a lost group of Cherokee who wanted to return to their native homeland in order to avoid being subjected to genocide back in Europe.

[Yayattasa]

Israeli Ministers Defend Soldiers Filmed Cheering in Sniper Video
Speaking on Israeli Army Radio, Naftali Bennett defended the soldiers reactions by saying 'anyone has been in combat knows that to sit in Tel Aviv and judge them is no serious'

[...]
Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan also defended the soldiers. “We have reached a level of insanity and delusion,” he said during an interview on Israeli radio. “Was it so boring in this country over the last day that this video needs to receive such exposure? To take a situation from the battlefield, when soldiers are under stress and explosive devices are being thrown at them and attempts are being made to infiltrate [the border], and to take their human response and judge them from the armchairs in Tel Aviv?” said Erdan.
“No country in the world does such a thing. It would have been better if the [soldiers'] happy reactions were not circulated, but to judge them and conclude something there was wrong, is crazy,” added Erdan.
Ofir Akunis, the science, technology and space minister, told Israeli radio that it is clear that such things should not happen, and it certainly damages Israel’s image. Israel’s public diplomacy work is difficult, almost impossible, he said.
Akunis also added that the video shows a Palestinian from Gaza approaching the border fence as a provocation and no one knew what his motive or target was. “He is not an innocent civilian who is coming to seek peace. I’m sure of that,” he said.
[...]
It was reported Sunday that the military will launch an inquiry into the conduct of troops in the recent incidents on the Gaza Strip border, in which several protesters were killed by sniper fire. The investigation is to be headed by Brig. Gen. Moti Baruch, head of the General Staff's Doctrine and Training Division. The military has not yet decided how many of the deaths are to be probed, but it appears that the probe will center on incidents in which the casualties were civilians, including the death on Friday of Palestinian photographer Yaser Murtaja.

There are multiple stabbing attacks against Israelis every week.

Why should I believe you? Where's the source for that?

That journalist killed in Gaza? He was actually a member of Hamas
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...ctivist-549349

He was an activist. Was he doing anything that endangered the Israelis when they murdered him? Or is it the law of always shoot first the Palestinian, never ask.

[sumskilz]

Why should I believe you? Where's the source for that?

I'm pretty sure you already know it's true, since you're always posting news from English language Israeli sites, I assume you see the stories every other day or so.

Every attack is its own news story, so in lieu of posting literally hundreds of links, here's a summery:

Thirty months of terror – 13 September 2015 to the present:

• Since 13 September 2015, 65 innocent people have been killed in terrorist attacks (including a Palestinian, two Americans, an Eritrean, and a British student), and 923 wounded (including uninvolved Palestinians).There have been: 193 stabbing attacks and 140 attempted stabbings; 174 shooting attacks; and 64 vehicular (ramming) attacks.
• In addition, riots and other types of attacks occur almost daily: rock throwing (6799), roadside/pipe bombs (194) and Molotov cocktails/grenades (1371)
• In the south, 66 rockets and mortar bombs have fallen in Israel, launched from the Gaza Strip.
• In 2017, 54 terrorist attacks were successfully carried out, while 400 terrorist attacks, including 13 suicide attacks and 8 kidnappings, as well as 1,100 potential lone-wolf attacks, were prevented.
• In 2016, 12 vehicular ramming attacks and 100 stabbing attacks were thwarted by security forces. In all, 344 major attacks (including 400 potential lone-wolf attacks) were prevented and 108 attacks were carried out.

He was an activist. Was he doing anything that endangered the Israelis when they murdered him? Or is it the law of always shoot first the Palestinian, never ask.

During the last major conflict, Hamas used small drones as guided bombs. Even an unarmed drone is a threat if it's spotting for Hamas, but the soldiers wouldn't have been able to know either way. Are you unaware that Hamas is at war with Israel? If the soldiers followed protocol, Murtaja would have been warned first, but either way, he would have known the risk he was taking:

According the the report published Tuesday morning, Murtaja had been an officer in the Hamas security apparatus in Gaza for years...

The report noted that in 2015, Murtaja had attempted to bring a drone into Gaza to aid in Hamas's intelligence gathering. The sources told Walla! that Murtaja was constantly in contact with senior officials in Hamas's internal security mechanism and many of those officials attended his funeral...

"We have seen dozens of cases where Hamas activists were disguised as medics and journalists. We also saw a journalist approach the border and operate a drone; we do not take chances in those cases. We issued warnings in English and Arabic to the protesters urging them not to endanger themselves. In the march of terror there were no innocent civilians, they were all Hamas members," said [Defense Minister Avigdor] Liberman.

Regarding the ed up video, you're not really telling the whole story:

Officials from across the Israeli political spectrum on Monday condemned a video that surfaced showing what appears to be IDF soldiers cheering as one of them, a sniper, shoots and fells a Palestinian who approached the Gaza security fence...

“The IDF is a moral army, but immoral actions may be committed within it,” said MK Nachman Shai of the left-wing Zionist Union party. “This incident and all incidents require an investigation. The battle isn’t just between us and Hamas; it is also for ourselves, for our values and for the identity of Israel society.”

Yair Lapid, chairman of the centrist Yesh Atid party, said he had “full confidence” in IDF Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot and its top commanders to investigate the video “without hesitation and in accordance with the IDF’s values and orders.”

“Israel’s moral power is part of national security and is also what gives us the qualitative edge over our enemies,” Lapid said.

“A very hard video to watch,” wrote Yehudah Glick, a lawmaker from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s ruling Likud party, on Twitter. “Disturbing and disappointing.”

The IDF said that the incident apparently occurred some months ago: “In regards to the video currently circulating, the event depicted apparently occurred a number of months ago. The incident is being reviewed and will be thoroughly investigated,” it said.

Widespread condemnation for video of soldiers cheering shooting of Palestinian

Offering a more detailed account Tuesday of its inquiry into a video of a sniper shooting a Palestinian while soldiers cheered on in the background, the IDF said that the incident "took place in the afternoon hours of Friday, December 22, 2017, during violent riots in the vicinity of Kissufim.

"The video showed only a small portion of (the forces') handling of a protracted violent riot, which included stone throwing and attempts to sabotage the fence, and which lasted some two hours."

The army's statement continued, "Multiple measures were taken to disperse rioters throughout, including using public address to order them to stop, deploying crowd control measures and firing into the air.

"Once these steps proved inefficient, a single bullet was fired at one of the suspects of organizing and spearheading the protest while he was meters away from the fence. As a result, he was struck in the leg and subsequently wounded.

"The video was not filmed from the exact position from which the fire emanated, and was shot by a soldier who is not an organic part of the force that fired. After completion of the full operational inquiry by the relevant chain of command, its findings will be submitted, as is the norm, for inspection by the Military Advocate General.

"Regarding the unauthorized filming of an operations, the dissemination of said materials and expressions contained therein, it should be noted these actions and statements are not congruent with the spirit and degree of restraint expected of IDF soldiers."

Soldiers involved with the video, in which some servicemen were heard enthusiastically lauding the sniper whose shot took down a Palestinian several months ago in the Gaza Strip, have been questioned by their commanders since the video was made public Monday and have provided an initial account.

The Bayit Yehudi chief said regarding the video, most likely taken three months ago, that, "First of all, I'm throwing my support behind the IDF's soldiers. I will not be dragged into a festival of denunciations when people don't know what went on, when it happened and what the circumstances were."

"Since when do we judge soldiers by the elegance of their speech? I prefer a whooping soldier to a grieving father," he stated.

The minister continued, "You can hear jubilant calls of 'Yes' in the air force's headquarters after a successful mission, even if enemy soldiers were killed. Because they succeeded in their mission.

"We send IDF soldiers to defend our borders from the thousands of terrorists who want to come in and slaughter us, and we mustn't get lost in the bigger picture. Right now, I'm placing my trust with commanders. They will carry out an inquiry, and I won't have that soldier judged in the media's court."

Responding to being asked whether the video could nonetheless still damage Israel, Bennett said, "It needs to be examined and understood. I still have not gotten a sense of who the figure was and what he was trying to do. Whether he held an explosive charge or not.

"I'm not judging soldiers for their table manners, but want them to safeguard us, and would prefer offensive-minded soldiers preventing terrorists from entering Israel over soldiers too scared to act for fear of being trialed in court.

An officer who served in one of the Gaza Division's field units over the past year and has attained knowledge of the complex operational realities engendered by border protests told Ynet, "The entire picture is still unclear, and the conduct of the soldier shooting the video and the response from his comrade should be separated from the conduct of the unit itself."

"Before shooting at the feet of a main instigator (of riots), he must be warned by either PA announcement or by firing into the air. That may have been done but was not shown in the video," he added.

"A central instigator," he continued, "does not necessarily have to be armed or trying to cut or climb over the fence. A central instigator is the riot's driving force, leading the other protesters towards the fence and not heeding our forces' warnings."

"Even in the 90 second video, you can see the post's commander exercised judgment on the field and gave a reasonable authorization to fire. It can also be seen that the force aimed at the lower portion of the Palestinian's foot—since directions are to shoot at the ankle rather than the knee to prevent a fatal outcome. Palestinians have undoubtedly been within the zone of the perimeter, the strip of land where they are not allowed to be in," he explained.

This is referring to the buffer zone as defined by the Oslo Accords.

The IDF has yet to announce whether a Criminal Investigation Division (CID) inquiry into the matter will be launched. The General Staff's inquiry apparatus, which began operating his week, is expected to prevent—at least for the time being—the opening of any CID investigations regarding the incidents taking place opposite the Gaza border recently.

Only after the General Staff's review is completed and on the basis of its findings will it be determined whether any criminal action is warranted.

IDF completes initial inquiry into Palestinian's shooting

[ioannis76]

I think that Israeli defense forces have had enough experience with protests to be able to discern when a protest is getting dangerous, and how to deal with it. If they chose to use lethal force, I doubt that it was because the other side spit out a couple of harsh words.

[Yayattasa]

I think that Israeli defense forces have had enough experience with protests to be able to discern when a protest is getting dangerous, and how to deal with it. If they chose to use lethal force, I doubt that it was because the other side spit out a couple of harsh words.

You've seen the video. If that's not enough to convince you the IDF does arbitrarily use lethal force on protesters, then there's no point trying to convince you otherwise.

[PurpleScotch]

I think that Israeli defense forces have had enough experience with protests to be able to discern when a protest is getting dangerous, and how to deal with it. If they chose to use lethal force, I doubt that it was because the other side spit out a couple of harsh words.

It is not about harsh words. The Gaza March of Return, in my opinion, is being stopped in such a manner due to its potential to raise support for the Palestinian cause and awareness of their situation globally and regionally. This is bad for Israel and its aspirations to colonize the land. This is why Israel labels them as terrorists, as that is a word known to trigger Western audiences, and cause less sympathy towards the protesters.

I saw the videos myself, I do not believe in the slightest that it is a terrorist or immoral gathering of any kind.

To me, it seems to be a genuine yearning for home, and a lot of desperation too.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

It is not about harsh words. The Gaza March of Return, in my opinion, is being stopped in such a manner due to its potential to raise support for the Palestinian cause and awareness of their situation globally and regionally.

Ah, because randomly killing civilians would look better than letting a peaceful protest happen. Gotcha.

[PurpleScotch]

Ah, because randomly killing civilians would look better than letting a peaceful protest happen. Gotcha.

I personally believe that Israel expected it to disperse after the initial measures taken by the IDF, and now after the sniper video I expect the IDF to be more tame (for now) as it is causing bad PR for Israel.

[Yayattasa]

Ah, because randomly killing civilians would look better than letting a peaceful protest happen. Gotcha.

When said protest is reclaiming the secured right to return to private property inside your borders for millions of Palestinians? When it has the possibility of sparking even bigger ones?

[nhytgbvfeco2]

I personally believe that Israel expected it to disperse after the initial measures taken by the IDF, and now after the sniper video I expect the IDF to be more tame (for now) as it is causing bad PR for Israel.

The sniper video isn't even from this protest. It's from a few months ago.
Unlikely, we know that they have little regard for their own lives. Hamas's motto is that they love death as much as we love life.

When said protest is reclaiming the secured right to return to private property inside your borders for millions of Palestinians? When it has the possibility of sparking even bigger ones?

I'm more worried about the very likely prospect of them blowing themselves up inside of our borders. You know, like they used to do before we erected said borders.
Israel doesn't control Gaza, and hasn't for over a decade. Instead of using their newfound freedom to help themselves and progress they elected Hamas, and doomed themselves. Hamas has already stated plenty of times that it has no interest in making peace with Israel.

[PurpleScotch]

The sniper video isn't even from this protest. It's from a few months ago.

It does not matter, bad PR is bad PR. The IDF would only make it worse for Israel if they take any extreme measures at the moment.

Unlikely, we know that they have little regard for their own lives. Hamas's motto is that they love death as much as we love life.

I'm more worried about the very likely prospect of them blowing themselves up inside of our borders. You know, like they used to do before we erected said borders.
Israel doesn't control Gaza, and hasn't for over a decade. Instead of using their newfound freedom to help themselves and progress they elected Hamas, and doomed themselves. Hamas has already stated plenty of times that it has no interest in making peace with Israel.

What do you think brought them to this desperation to say such things? Also, what do you think brings many Gazans to rally around such a flag? Inherent evil? Or perhaps decades of humiliation, blood, and despair? Do you not think many other groups of people in the world would react in a similar manner when exposed to such an existence? These people do not know the quality of life many of us here on TWC are accustomed to, their existence is full to the brim with pain and hopelessness.

[sumskilz]

What do you think brought them to this desperation to say such things? Also, what do you think brings many Gazans to rally around such a flag? Inherent evil? Or perhaps decades of humiliation, blood, and despair? Do you not think many other groups of people in the world would react in a similar manner when exposed to such an existence?

Well let's examine that...

Between 1944 and 1950, over 2 million German civilians were expelled from Silesia, Pomerania, and Prussia. These are places their ancestors had lived since the Medieval Period, and even longer considering some of their ancestors were Germanized locals. This was a backlash against Germans due to a war started by a German government, but many if not most of these people would have been innocent civilians. Now based on this arguably legitimate grievance, these Germans and their descendants could have made return to their ancestral homeland their singular greatest obsession for the last 70 years, they could have spent the bulk of their human and economic resources on attempts to kill Polish civilians in revenge rather than working to improve their own lives. Luckily for those Germans and their descendants, their cultural response wasn't so maladaptive. While the descendants of those Germans are unlikely to ever get their property given back, they can now buy a home in their ancestral land and move back. This would be unlikely to be the case if a significant portion of them had collectively spent the last seventy years murdering or attempting to murder innocent Polish civilians.

What about the descendants of the 900,000 Middle Eastern Jews who were driven out of predominately Arab Muslim countries? These are the people who constitute slightly more than half of the ancestry of Jewish Israelis. They haven't spent the last three generations plotting to kill Arab civilians far from the front of any military conflict. They haven't spent most of their resources seeking vengeance and retribution, instead they made a new life for themselves. Though to be fair, it probably did help that they were welcomed by Jewish Israelis, rather than kept in camps as perpetual refugees to be used as political pawns like the Arab governments did with the Palestinians.

I suspect that it's only in projecting your own cultural values on Palestinians that you mistake pride for desperation:



See also: Shahid

[Prodromos]

"On a scale of 1 to 10 how bad is your life under occupation?"
"11."
"Why?"
"Every time I go on a business trip to France, I have to fly via Jordan instead of Israel..."

"On a scale of 1 to 10 how bad is life under occupation?"
"10."
"How?"
"Checkpoints."
"There are no checkpoints."
"I once saw a checkpoint when I was a little kid."

Palestinians may not have the living standards of Switzerland, but it is certainly not low enough to justify perpetual war and despair. They're certainly better off than most of the poverty-stricken warzones of the world.

[sumskilz]

Palestinians may not have the living standards of Switzerland, but it is certainly not low enough to justify perpetual war and despair. They're certainly better off than most of the poverty-stricken warzones of the world.

I like the part where the guy says that if only one person works, it's really hard if they have nine kids.