Israel kills 45, thousands wounded, in Gaza during protests

[Yayattasa]

So, Gaza is seeing protests for Land Day, which is a day of remembrance for the six murdered, hundreds wounded and arrested, by Israel in 1976, after the illegal confiscation on Arab lands.

Tens of thousands are protesting in Gaza, marching towards the border, also to remember the world about United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194, which has never been implemented. Therefore, the protest has been dubbed The Great March of Return, and is set to last six weeks, until the day of Nakba, May 15th, where 700000 Arabs were displaced from Palestine and not allowed to return after the declaration of independence of Israel, in 1947-1948.

Israel had already said protests would not be tolerated by the border. So they gassed the approaching masses using drones, and, when in sight, live ammunition. The predictable result:

16 Killed, Dozens Wounded as Thousands Gather on Gaza-Israel Border for 'March of Return'
LIVE UPDATES: 30,000 Palestinians demonstrate throughout Gaza for 'March of Return' ■ Soldiers exchange fire with two Palestinians ■ Abbas asks UN to protect demonstrators ■ UN to Israel: Situation may deteriorate, lethal force must be last resort

UN Chief Calls for Independent Investigation Into Palestinian Deaths at Gaza Border
UN security council convenes without Israel's ambassador ■ Palestinian premier joins call to investigate Israel's actions ■ Israeli Arab NGO blasts Israel for 'unlwaful' use of snipers

How should the world respond to these actions? Could it respond? Should it?

Palestinians say over a dozen killed in Gaza border protest

Israeli military dismisses demonstration as Hamas ploy to ‘carry out terror attacks’

Fatima Nasser, 65, said she had come with her seven children, all of whom were unemployed. “To die with dignity is better than living a life full of humiliation. We will return to our land, we will return to our homeland,” she said. “Israel kills us anyway, whether it’s by shooting or blockade.”

[Gaidin]

How should the world respond to these actions? Could it respond? Should it?

Could it respond? Yes. Of course. Will it in any meaningful way? That's the key question you left out.

[Yayattasa]

Well, Gaza suffered even more in the past and the world turned a blind eye. But Israel is reaching new levels of stupidity these times, emboldened by the clown in the white house.

Friday’s death toll stood at 16 and included a farmer killed by an Israeli tank shell before dawn as he picked parsley near the border, according to the health ministry. An Israeli army spokesman said the man was operating suspiciously.

Israel attacks Hamas any time some aggressive action comes out of Gaza, as if Hamas was the only political entity in it. They say they hold Hamas responsible for any hostility, but who holds Israel responsible for all the violence its minions perpetrate?

[Aexodus]

What do Americans gain from supporting Israel in the Middle East, at all? It seems like a one-way relationship, especially when Israel regularly gets away with human rights abuses as we see above, as other things. Not that the Palestinian side is innocent either, by the way.

[Copperknickers II]

What do Americans gain from supporting Israel in the Middle East, at all? It seems like a one-way relationship, especially when Israel regularly gets away with human rights abuses as we see above, as other things. Not that the Palestinian side is innocent either, by the way.

- They get a solid ally in a strategically vital region. Israel offers useful military support to the US, most notably its special forces and intelligence divisions.

- They maintain the support of the Israel lobby in the US which is backed by some very wealthy and influential people, not only Jews but a plethora of other stakeholders such as Christian Zionists and the military industrial complex, plus other businesses with Israeli interests - Israel is America's most important trade partner in the Middle East, even more than Saudi.

- They court the Jewish voting bloc (Jews are 1.4% of the US population, compared to 1% for Muslims).


I think the only conceivable solution for the Israel-Palestine conflict will be an Indian independence style peaceful resistance movement. The Palestinians are unquestionably the victims of heavy-handedness and brutality, but nobody who matters will take this seriously so long as they continue to be a national security threat to Israel. There's a general consensus that countries are allowed to defend themselves by whatever means necessary. Palestine must stop violent activities against Israelis and must stop calling Israel an illegitimate state, until they do both of those things they are condemning future generations to a pit of despair and suffering from which there is no way out.

[Ferdiad]

Fairly sure the Evangelicals in the US are obsessed with Israel due to the perception Israel needs to exist for their doomsday prophecy to be fulfilled. So that's quite a large voter block you can court along with the Jewish population.

[Aexodus]

Special forces and other support that the US will pay $38 billion for in the next 10 years for. And the $133 billion already paid.
So it seems they are willing to fund a regime that will open fire on its own citizens. And again, Hamas etc are equally bad, if not worse.

Otherwise, you seem to be saying they only do it otherwise to court wealthy zionists in America, as well as that huge 'voting block' of 1.4%, I.e. A voting block that normally disproportionally votes Democrat. Is it really worth these atrocities? Over and over again?

Fairly sure the Evangelicals in the US are obsessed with Israel due to the perception Israel needs to exist for their doomsday prophecy to be fulfilled. So that's quite a large voter block you can court along with the Jewish population.

Fair point, hadn't thought about the evangelical block. But still, the whole religious doomsday thing is a pretty dumb reason in my opinion in of itself for supporting Israel to begin with, on their part.

[HannibalExMachina]

Fairly sure the Evangelicals in the US are obsessed with Israel due to the perception Israel needs to exist for their doomsday prophecy to be fulfilled. So that's quite a large voter block you can court along with the Jewish population.

pretty sure evangelicals are far more on board with this than, say, progressive jews. but then, progressives jews arent likely to vote for mango mussolini, anyway.

oc, if we stopped associating every jew with israel, and every israeli with being jewish, we might be getting somewhere in general. would make it harder for low key antisemites and conservative israel apologists to stay under the radar.

[Yayattasa]

UN Convenes to Discuss Gaza Border Clashes Without Israeli Envoy
Following the security council meeting, Israel's ambassador to UN lambastes Palestinians for 'underhanded opportunism', condemns Hamas for sending children to the border as bait

Paywalled again, sorry.

The United Nations Security Council convened Friday night to discuss the events on the Gaza border, despite the United States' and Israel's request to postpone deliberations for Saturday, due to Passover holiday eve. No Israeli envoy was present during discussions.

In a statement released Saturday, Israel's ambassador to the UN Danny Danon called the move "underhanded opportunism" by the Palestinians, aimed to spread lies on the UN stage "while Jewish people across the world gather to celebrate Passover."

"This disgraceful abuse of the holiday will not prevent us from presenting the truth regarding Hamas' violent protests, whose only purpose is to ignite the sector and incite provocations."

In his statement, Danon called on UN members to condemn Hamas for its methods during the protest. "Just today we saw how Hamas uses small children, sending them to the border while risking their lives," adding that the international community must not be deceived by Hamas and the attempts to conceal its crimes.

And that (if true) somehow justifies using live ammunition against the masses. Surely...

[Prodromos]

One wonders, that if the case against Israel is so strong, why does the starting post rely so much on half-truths and lies of omission? The OP portrays the incident as Israel simply "killing 16." 16 what? Babies? Terrorists? You make it seem like Israel was just spraying a random crowd of peaceful people.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/31/m...ntl/index.html

In northern Gaza, CNN witnessed at least two dozen people being taken away by ambulances in a half-hour span Friday as protests started across Gaza. CNN also saw a small number of protesters throwing rocks. People were injured by live rounds, rubber bullets and tear gas. The majority were young men -- one woman was among the injured...


In an article on its website, the United Nations reported that Tayé-Brook Zerihoun, the deputy UN political affairs chief, told Friday's Security Council meeting that around 30,000 people participated in and around the March at various locations in Gaza.

Soon after the demonstrations started, the UN report said, "The situation turned deadly in several spots."


"Some of the casualties were reportedly the result of live ammunition used by Israeli security forces during the March. Other casualties followed armed clashes between Palestinians and Israeli security forces, including the shelling of a Hamas observation point," the United Nations said.


"Reports indicate that most of the demonstrators stayed well away from the border fence and were not violent," the United Nations reported Zerihoun as saying.

"However, there are also reports that some protesters engaged in stone-throwing and violent behavior; some reportedly carrying weapons," Zerihoun said.


He reportedly told the Security Council that Israeli security forces said that militants tried to get through the fence in attempt to plant explosives.


In a briefing Saturday, IDF spokesman Brig. Gen. Ronen Manelis said there had been three attempts at throwing projectiles, including live fire and Molotov cocktails at Israeli soldiers across the fence...


Manelis said the protests were organized by Hamas, the militant political group that controls Gaza, adding that if these continue IDF will "hit targets deep inside Gaza."

Manelis said that most killed in Gaza were known as "terror activists," known to Israel by name and affiliation. He did not elaborate further regarding identities of those killed.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel...ire-on-troops/

Israeli tanks and planes bombed Hamas sites in the Gaza Strip Friday evening after troops came under fire amid intense day-long clashes on the border.


The Israel Defense Forces said it targeted three sites belonging to Hamas with tanks and from the air. There were no immediate reports of injuries from the attack, which came as the death toll in clashes along the border rose to 16, according to the Hamas-run Gaza health ministry.



The reprisal attack came after troops were shot at by two Gazans approaching the security fence. No Israeli troops were hurt in the exchange, the IDF said.


“In response, IDF troops immediately fired according to the rules of engagement, targeting the terrorists,” the IDF said in a statement. The army would not say if the two Gazan gunmen were hit.


The IDF said troops also fired at suspects who had infiltrated into Israeli territory from the Gaza Strip via the security fence. The statement did not say if the suspects were still in Israeli territory.

The army earlier said troops were firing on suspects who approached the border fence and who it said it feared were using the chaos of Friday’s large demonstrations as cover to plant bombs or infiltrate into Israel.


A spokesperson said the shooting attack was “further proof that the terrorist organizations in the Gaza Strip use these violent riots in order to camouflage terror.”


“The Hamas terror organization is responsible for violent riots and everything taking place under its auspices. The IDF will not allow the security fence to be turned into an area of terror,” the spokesperson added.


The cross-border exchange capped a day that saw some 30,000 Gazans protest at several points along the security fence, as part of a so-called March of Return that is expected to last six weeks, with Gazans camping in tent cities near the security fence ahead of a larger protest planned for mid-May.


Gazan sources said sixteen people were killed and over 1,000 more injured in the fighting. The army said protesters hurled firebombs and stones at troops and burned tires. Many of the injuries came from rubber bullets and tear gas inhalation, though the IDF used live ammunition as well.


The IDF spokesman Ronen Manelis said the IDF faced “a violent, terrorist demonstration at six points” along the fence. He said the IDF used “pinpoint fire” wherever there were attempts to breach or damage the security fence. “All the fatalities were aged 18-30, several of the fatalities were known to us, and at least two of them were members of Hamas commando forces,” he said in a late afternoon statement.


The shooting attack, which came as the darkness fell Friday, came shortly after an army official said troops would remain deployed along the border amid fears of persistent attacks.

The official said this could include any number of things, including attempts to infiltrate the border, attacks with improvised explosive devices or rocket fire.


“We are ready for any scenario,” an official said.

So, basically, adult male militants. Not exactly old ladies peacefully protesting.

Israel and Hamas-run Gaza are in a state of hostilities. Why would Israel just stand there while thousands of potential militants move toward and attack them? Any country would've done the same and likely much worse (see how Turkey treats Syrians).

[Copperknickers II]

Special forces and other support that the US will pay $38 billion for in the next 10 years for. And the $133 billion already paid.
So it seems they are willing to fund a regime that will open fire on its own citizens. And again, Hamas etc are equally bad, if not worse.

Otherwise, you seem to be saying they only do it otherwise to court wealthy zionists in America, as well as that huge 'voting block' of 1.4%, I.e. A voting block that normally disproportionally votes Democrat. Is it really worth these atrocities? Over and over again?

I think US foreign policy hawks tend to fear that if you don't provide military funding to your proxies then they will simply fall to enemy states/proxies. It's the difference between West Germany/South Korea on the one hand, vs 1956 Hungary/1979 Iran on the other hand. The US has a long history of backing oppressive regimes in order to prevent the formation of hostile new regimes. If they were to stop backing Israel and start backing the Palestinians (or at least signalling an end to the military support of Israel) they'd likely end up with a situation like Iran and latterly Iraq, where they swapped allied governments in those countries for hostile ones. And of course, it's quite easy to make a moral case for backing the Israelis, as we all know what would happen if Israel fell to Islamist fundamentalists, and it would be several orders of magnitude worse than anything Israel has ever done or will do.

Of course, a negotiated settlement led on the Palestinian side by moderate pro-democratic Muslims would be the most preferable option. But in light of the results of American attempts to hand over power to such people in Libya and Syria, that seems to be a bit of a pipe dream to put it mildly. US policy hawks therefore see simply a dichotomy between status quo, and Holocaust 2.0.

[Yayattasa]

One wonders, that if the case against Israel is so strong, why does the starting post rely so much on half-truths and lies of omission? The OP portrays the incident as Israel simply "killing 16." 16 what? Babies? Terrorists? You make it seem like Israel was just spraying a random crowd of peaceful people.

Clashes started after Israel threw tear gas (from drones) on crowds half a kilometer away from the border.

An Israeli tank gunner also murdered a farmer tending to his crops near the border because he was 'acting suspiciously'. Obviously, for the Israeli occupation forces, acting like a Palestinian is always suspicious. Enlighten us on how that is acceptable by the 'wow so superior' American morals, please.

[sumskilz]

Special forces and other support that the US will pay $38 billion for in the next 10 years for. And the $133 billion already paid.
So it seems they are willing to fund a regime that will open fire on its own citizens. And again, Hamas etc are equally bad, if not worse.

The OP is misleading, see Dr Legend's post. Israel didn't fire on its own citizens and there is no evidence that anyone was shot for simply protesting. Rubber bullets were used against those throwing rocks, shooting slings, and throwing Molotov cocktails. Live ammunition was used by Israeli snipers in limited cases against militants attempting to breach the security fence.

Anyway, about the US-Israeli relationship...

The roots of the aid deal go back to the US negotiated treaty between Egypt and Israel. The US basically paid the two to make peace in order to bring both securely into its sphere of influence, along with Jordan. Both countries received large annual allotments of military aid. Israel’s being roughly twice that of Egypt’s due to its strategic position. Israel gave back the Sinai including oil and natural gas reserves worth considerably more than it has received in military from the US to date. In return, Israel got one reasonably secure border.

The military aid is largely a handout to the US arms industry. Initially, 76% of it had to be spent on US manufactured arms. Now all of it is spent on US manufactured arms or research and development that is shared with the US. For example, most of the US missile defense technology has been developed in collaboration with the Israelis, and tested in real life combat situations in Israel. Another example is Israel’s Trophy active protection system for vehicles that the US is looking into implementing. The system detects anti-tank missiles, destroys them with a shotgun-like counter blast, and alerts the crew as to the location the missile was fired from. This system evidently works at close enough range that during the last Gaza conflict, Israel was able to drive tanks into crowded cities without close infantry support.

Another part of the alliance is intelligence sharing. For a number of reasons, Israel has the best intelligence network in the Middle East, including agents inside various terror organizations. For one, it’s a matter of survival, so there is motivation to go above and beyond the risks that Western agents would be willing to take. Secondly, slightly more than half of Israel’s Jewish population initially came from those Middle Eastern countries and so the Mossad has intimate knowledge of those countries and agents who can not only speak the local languages perfectly, but can fake specific regional dialects. The Mossad recruits informants from among religious minorities and the like as well as Muslims who often believe they are working for a government other than Israel. Even the Shin Bet internal security has agents that have learned to speak the dialect of specific Palestinian towns. An extreme known example of this success was during the 1967 war, when Syria’s senior adviser to their Minister of Defense was actually an Israeli Jew.

While countries always pursue their own interests, it's probably safe to say that the US-Israeli alliance is more secure than any other US Middle Eastern alliance, partly because the Israeli population is almost unanimously positive toward the US, whereas significant portions of the other Middle Eastern countries' populations hate us. There is no risk of coup in Israel that would suddenly change the country's geopolitical alignment.

[LinusLinothorax]

One wonders, that if the case against Israel is so strong, why does the starting post rely so much on half-truths and lies of omission? The OP portrays the incident as Israel simply "killing 16." 16 what? Babies? Terrorists? You make it seem like Israel was just spraying a random crowd of peaceful people.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/31/m...ntl/index.html



https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel...ire-on-troops/



So, basically, adult male militants. Not exactly old ladies peacefully protesting.

Israel and Hamas-run Gaza are in a state of hostilities. Why would Israel just stand there while thousands of potential militants move toward and attack them? Any country would've done the same and likely much worse (see how Turkey treats Syrians).

Indeed, like 95% of the "protesters" are military-aged males:

[HannibalExMachina]

Indeed, like 95% of the protesters are "military-aged males".

you guys really need to find a different angle for your paranoid inuendo, it gets kinda noticable.

[NosPortatArma]

How should "the world" respond? Speaking as a part of the world, my response is: I don't care, and i think people care way too much about Israel. I don't say this as someone who is pro-israel, because i'm not, and I'm certainly not pro-palestinian either. I just don't see what makes that piece of desert so important that it justifies everyone talking about it. I couldn't care less about what happens in Israel, and to be honest me reaction is that i'm annoyed that people expect me to care, as if israel and palestine concerned the entire world. What does the world think about rwanda? what do we think about east timor? I don't think anything, because it's far away and has nothing to do with Sweden.

So israel occupied some land you say? Oh gee, as if no other country has ever done something bad, yet i don't see people talking so much about them. I guess they've done some bad things, but i don't see why i should care. I don't care about arabs, and i don't care about jews. I'm just annoyed with how they think they're so important that everyone must care about their stupid conflict. Way i see it, its two desert people fighting over sand, i couldn't care less, stop bother me, it has nothing to do with sweden, not even with europe.

edit: and god, the worst thing ever is how jews and arabs (though mostly arabs) come to sweden and then they bring their stupid conflict with them, want everyone to support their stupid side... keep your idiot conflict to yourselves, jesus christ. they basically have their own lobbies, it's amazing, and they get our government to take sides even though it hurts swedish trade interests... so stupid, i hate it. go back to palestine and israel if you care so much about it..

[hellheaven1987]

It is kindly irony that even Jordan view those Palestinians some sore of troublemakers...

[sumskilz]

Indeed, like 95% of the "protesters" are military-aged males

Hamas has even admitted to five of those killed having been members of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades:

How should "the world" respond? Speaking as a part of the world, my response is: I don't care, and i think people care way too much about Israel. I don't say this as someone who is pro-israel, because i'm not, and I'm certainly not pro-palestinian either. I just don't see what makes that piece of desert so important that it justifies everyone talking about it. I couldn't care less about what happens in Israel, and to be honest me reaction is that i'm annoyed that people expect me to care, as if israel and palestine concerned the entire world. What does the world think about rwanda? what do we think about east timor? I don't think anything, because it's far away and has nothing to do with Sweden.

So israel occupied some land you say? Oh gee, as if no other country has ever done something bad, yet i don't see people talking so much about them. I guess they've done some bad things, but i don't see why i should care. I don't care about arabs, and i don't care about jews. I'm just annoyed with how they think they're so important that everyone must care about their stupid conflict. Way i see it, its two desert people fighting over sand, i couldn't care less, stop bother me, it has nothing to do with sweden, not even with europe.

There is a lot of sense in what you're saying. The only issue I have with it is that thinking Israel/Palestine is desert is kind of like thinking Sweden is tundra. I blame the Kingdom of Heaven movie. Jerusalem is actually surrounded by forested hills.

[Yayattasa]

The OP is misleading, see Dr Legend's post. Israel didn't fire on its own citizens and there is no evidence that anyone was shot for simply protesting. Rubber bullets were used against those throwing rocks, shooting slings, and throwing Molotov cocktails. Live ammunition was used by Israeli snipers in limited cases against militants attempting to breach the security fence.

Surely someone running AWAY from the border fence must be trying to breach it, right?

Israeli military defends tactics as video appears to show unarmed Gaza protesters shot by snipers

The Israeli military tweeted early on Saturday its response was “accurate and measured, and we know where every bullet landed”.
When asked by reporters a spokesman could not say how many live rounds the Israeli military fired on Friday or how many people were shot. The military later deleted the tweet.

lewl

You see mostly disenfranchised young males in protests because, well, Palestinians live in a patriarchy (women tend to the house, men go out and get business done) and most Palestinians (specially in Gaza) are under the age of 24 years.

[sumskilz]

Surely someone running AWAY from the border fence must be trying to breach it, right?

I don't know how anyone can take such a claim at face value, knowing the history of Pallywood videos, and let us not forget the recent handicapped shahid, who somehow knew ahead of time that he in particular was going to be martyred.

Meanwhile, Reuters provided a nice image of civilian protesters: