Epirus Requires A Buff

[Lord Dakier]

Hello,

Since the latest changes I thought I'd return to Epirus for a campaign and instantly found it seemingly impossible to get anything off the ground.

I spent my initial turns doing something a bit different and forming a web of pacts that pit other factions against Rome. Before turn 10 I had Rome at war with Athens, Macedon, Eturia(dead), Venturi(?), Syracuse and the Genoan faction. I led a fairly sizable force to take Conentia(?)... In that same turn Rome attack Taras with a full-stack. With this switch their force then moved north and I had further troops in Apollonia retake Taras. The force in the north then turned around and defeated my main force at the bridge between the two settlements. Using my smaller force in Taras I then take out their supporting army while grouping with my main force to take out their full stack completely. The following turn I have a second full stack wipe-out both armies and take Taras, leaving me with the southern most province that has no military capability and me raging all the way to desktop.

Epirus now is immediately unable to build a half-decent force never mind anything capable of attacking the Romans sooner because it instantly gets itself into the negatives for food supply after building 4-5 units so you have to wait for food buildings to develop which by this time the Romans are basically reach and ready with a full stack. It's supposed to be the year of Pyrrhus conquering Sicily however instead it becomes the next couple of years of him cowering in Taras, hoping the Romans don't attack while Apollonia builds his forces and you develop food.

I like the food problem in all honesty, it forces you to be slow right at the start and give the AI a chance to buildup, what I am not a fan of though is if that happens then Rome just rolfstomp you with double-triple the forces.

[Geffalrus]

Turn 10 and diplomacy? That's not the Pyrrhus approach amigo.

Rome has more recruitment capacity than you do - they have holdings in two provinces, more regions in both, and your best troop recruitment area is across the water. Time is NOT on your side.

Here's what you do:

1) Recruit 3 pikes. Also, purchase 1 Mercenary Pike from the pool. You want max pikes possible, so at most you can recruit 3 and hire 1+1 next turn. That's 6 pikes in total and now you have a super solid main line.

2) Recruit slingers and Tarantine Levies - 2 of each at least. These are the cheap screen for your better units.

Optional) Depending on your funds, you may want to recruit some merc Cavalry - either lancers in Epirus, or Italian in Taras.

Addendum) Mercenary upkeep is now a LOT less than it used to be. You can now afford to purchase mercs whenever you want since they're less likely to break your bank. Consider them as an alternative to slowly recruiting cavalry and quality skirmishers, and as a necessary second source of pikes in Epirus.

3) By turn 3 or 4 (depending on weather and movement) you want Pyrrhus to have a large stack of troops outside Taras ready to go.

4a) If there is a Roman army nearby, pursue it and kill it. You want to be smacking Roman troops out of the air otherwise they will overwhelm you.

4b) If they're up fighting the Etruscans, march over and take Cosentia and occupy it. Don't Liberate. Those jerks always betray me.

5) If Rome is slow getting back, take......Campania/Naples/whatever to complete your control of Southern Italy. If you're worried about Rome and/or your army got too beat up, Liberate to create a buffer.

6) Here things start to branch. If you are doing well fighting armies, do your best to keep playing whack-a-mole. If you're having trouble, try and Liberate the two regions next to Rome to create a buffer zone.

It should be mentioned that Rome will get free armies once you start taking settlements. I believe Liberating counts, though maybe that's a Dresden and co question. Either way, that's why you want to cut down Roman armies when you can. Plus, with the new Vanilla update, you get money for all those prisoners you take in battle. Slapping Roman armies around can help keep your economy running.

Your strength as Epirus is that you have Elephants in Italy, solid pikes, and decent heavy cavalry once your Barracks lvl 2 is built. Thessalian Cav and the new Philoi Hippeis are more than a match for the Roman cavalry forces. You have decent melee infantry, but you lack the high quality Royal Peltasts that the other Diadochi get (Antigonids, Seleucids, Ptolemies). That makes taking Rome directly a.........frustration.

Keep a solid line of pikes, use your cav and light infantry to dominate the flanks and eliminate enemy skirmishers, then engage and use your elephants to rear charge.

Keeping Epirus safe on the mainland can be a bit of luck of the dice. Ideally, you get a treaty with Ardiaei, Makedon fights Athens forever, and everyone ignores you. At least until you've conquered enough of Italy.

[Livin La Vida Loca]

If there's one thing I want changed about Epirus, it's that they should get better hoplites. You're probably gonna use pikes anyway, but it seems super weird to me that they can field of the strongest pike units in the game, but can't field anything better than the standard hoplites that literally every Greek faction can field. It's just inconsistent and it bugs me. As for their starting position, it's kinda hard to make realistic and still have Rome not die immediately, or at least, so I'd imagine.

[Lord Dakier]

Turn 10 and diplomacy? That's not the Pyrrhus approach amigo.

Rome has more recruitment capacity than you do - they have holdings in two provinces, more regions in both, and your best troop recruitment area is across the water. Time is NOT on your side.

Here's what you do:

1) Recruit 3 pikes. Also, purchase 1 Mercenary Pike from the pool. You want max pikes possible, so at most you can recruit 3 and hire 1+1 next turn. That's 6 pikes in total and now you have a super solid main line.

2) Recruit slingers and Tarantine Levies - 2 of each at least. These are the cheap screen for your better units.

Optional) Depending on your funds, you may want to recruit some merc Cavalry - either lancers in Epirus, or Italian in Taras.

Addendum) Mercenary upkeep is now a LOT less than it used to be. You can now afford to purchase mercs whenever you want since they're less likely to break your bank. Consider them as an alternative to slowly recruiting cavalry and quality skirmishers, and as a necessary second source of pikes in Epirus.

3) By turn 3 or 4 (depending on weather and movement) you want Pyrrhus to have a large stack of troops outside Taras ready to go.

4a) If there is a Roman army nearby, pursue it and kill it. You want to be smacking Roman troops out of the air otherwise they will overwhelm you.

4b) If they're up fighting the Etruscans, march over and take Cosentia and occupy it. Don't Liberate. Those jerks always betray me.

5) If Rome is slow getting back, take......Campania/Naples/whatever to complete your control of Southern Italy. If you're worried about Rome and/or your army got too beat up, Liberate to create a buffer.

6) Here things start to branch. If you are doing well fighting armies, do your best to keep playing whack-a-mole. If you're having trouble, try and Liberate the two regions next to Rome to create a buffer zone.

It should be mentioned that Rome will get free armies once you start taking settlements. I believe Liberating counts, though maybe that's a Dresden and co question. Either way, that's why you want to cut down Roman armies when you can. Plus, with the new Vanilla update, you get money for all those prisoners you take in battle. Slapping Roman armies around can help keep your economy running.

Your strength as Epirus is that you have Elephants in Italy, solid pikes, and decent heavy cavalry once your Barracks lvl 2 is built. Thessalian Cav and the new Philoi Hippeis are more than a match for the Roman cavalry forces. You have decent melee infantry, but you lack the high quality Royal Peltasts that the other Diadochi get (Antigonids, Seleucids, Ptolemies). That makes taking Rome directly a.........frustration.

Keep a solid line of pikes, use your cav and light infantry to dominate the flanks and eliminate enemy skirmishers, then engage and use your elephants to rear charge.

Keeping Epirus safe on the mainland can be a bit of luck of the dice. Ideally, you get a treaty with Ardiaei, Makedon fights Athens forever, and everyone ignores you. At least until you've conquered enough of Italy.

The problem I have with this is like I say those troops are immediately taking hits due to lack of food. What do you do about that or do you just play through it?

[Geffalrus]

Is it lack of food, or lack of supplies? Are there any fleets or armies raiding your territory? Have you had any armies sitting in your lands eating your supplies?

I'll boot up another campaign start shortly to pay more attention to that. In my recent-ish experience, I was able to quickly storm into Cosentia (and after learning my lesson about Liberating the Lucani) and make use of that settlement's build slot to get a farm.

Basically there are now a lot of things that affect food/supplies, so I either need to know more about your situation, or pay more attention on a play through to tell you what I do specifically to avoid that.

If there's one thing I want changed about Epirus, it's that they should get better hoplites. You're probably gonna use pikes anyway, but it seems super weird to me that they can field of the strongest pike units in the game, but can't field anything better than the standard hoplites that literally every Greek faction can field. It's just inconsistent and it bugs me. As for their starting position, it's kinda hard to make realistic and still have Rome not die immediately, or at least, so I'd imagine.

You get Royal Hoplites (Hypaspists basically) as a bodyguard option, I believe. But yes, otherwise Epirus does kind of lack elite troops besides the Chaonan Agema. I've been toying with the idea of pitching a unit that would be the Chaonan Agema skirmisher/melee variant (much like how the Royal Peltast of Macedon is the skirmisher variant of the Peltast Pikes). I've envisioned an elite spear unit that would essentially act as an elite phalangite wielding the front-half sarissa with their pelta and normal armor. Unlike the Hypaspists of other factions, this unit would be a more mobile/aggressive spear unit with a high attack and would look kind of like the Iphicratean Peltasts (tall spear, small shield) except that they'd have good armor. Maybe they'd have a javelin or two as well. But the idea would be that they'd fill the role of elite melee infantry for Epirus while Thesprotians and Agrianians fill the mid-tier melee infantry role. As it stands, it's slightly weird that Epirus is the only Diadochi faction whose elite pike has no non-pike incarnation.

[Lord Dakier]

Is it lack of food, or lack of supplies? Are there any fleets or armies raiding your territory? Have you had any armies sitting in your lands eating your supplies?

I'll boot up another campaign start shortly to pay more attention to that. In my recent-ish experience, I was able to quickly storm into Cosentia (and after learning my lesson about Liberating the Lucani) and make use of that settlement's build slot to get a farm.

Basically there are now a lot of things that affect food/supplies, so I either need to know more about your situation, or pay more attention on a play through to tell you what I do specifically to avoid that.

I'll try and be a bit more aggressive. I tend not to naturally as the AI usually like 10 turns to build up if you want to make the game a bit challenging. I think storming Cosentia like you say is a must though.

Regarding the food situation, I had managed to grab 3 slingers before going into the negatives right at the start. I never have paid much attention to the supply system and can't say I understand it so I may have to review that further.

[Sonny WiFiHr]

Send spy on enemy territory . Deploy it. Should give food. There are politic action about food.
Your staring army alone is capable of taking out Italia. Swords , pikes , shock cav. Rome is not match for that. Rome can have 4 armies and 2 fleets, it can build them fast - depending on difficulty .

[Geffalrus]

+1 to what Sonny said. Use the spy in enemy territory and it gives you enough food to stay positive. Otherwise, recruiting from two locations drives you into the negative.

[Frosthammer]

Lord Dakier, you need to blitz Rome AFAP. In starting situation time is not on your side - you have 1 city in Italy without barracks, so you need to take Magna Grecia AFAP.
You can move your 4 unit army to border and become recruiting. Enemies strike you with 4 units army underestimating you and then again in the same turn with another 4 units army (normal/Normal difficulty). After turn ends, capture city west to Taras (use mercs). Later city on north and secure province. At this time Etrutians may be defeated. Gather full stack of normal units and supporting stack of cheap (including a lot of missile units). Repel Roman armies. Take Rome. Now time is on your side. Meanwhile support some troops in Appolonia to prevent surprising war and assault on your city.
Pay attention to local AOR - apulii extraordinarii, brutii pezoi (useful early on) and tauruci secoroforoi (ok early on).

[FlashHeart07]

One major question remains. Campaign difficulty. Or did I miss that? If not, I think you know what the question will be.
Not that it will solve your problem of lacking food but it might help you to get some breathing room.

Sendt fra min SM-G930F med Tapatalk

[Lord Dakier]

One major question remains. Campaign difficulty. Or did I miss that? If not, I think you know what the question will be.
Not that it will solve your problem of lacking food but it might help you to get some breathing room.

Sendt fra min SM-G930F med Tapatalk

It's just normal/normal. I take it up to hard in some campaigns but Epirus has always been tougher ride than most other campaigns.

A bit off-topic but can you vassalize Rome and reliably keep them?

[Geffalrus]

Lord Dakier, you need to blitz Rome AFAP. In starting situation time is not on your side - you have 1 city in Italy without barracks, so you need to take Magna Grecia AFAP.
You can move your 4 unit army to border and become recruiting. Enemies strike you with 4 units army underestimating you and then again in the same turn with another 4 units army (normal/Normal difficulty). After turn ends, capture city west to Taras (use mercs). Later city on north and secure province. At this time Etrutians may be defeated. Gather full stack of normal units and supporting stack of cheap (including a lot of missile units). Repel Roman armies. Take Rome. Now time is on your side. Meanwhile support some troops in Appolonia to prevent surprising war and assault on your city.
Pay attention to local AOR - apulii extraordinarii, brutii pezoi (useful early on) and tauruci secoroforoi (ok early on).

That's a bit faster than I've been able to do things, but I see the merit to what you say. One of the dozens of times I've played the start I wandered Pyrrhus out to recruit beyond Taras first turn and got jumped. And like you said, it actually went pretty well. A thing for everyone else to remember is that the smaller the armies, the larger the impact of your elephants. In a huge battle, you need many elephant charges to win, and it takes a while, racking up losses to your army in true Pyrrhic style. In a smaller battle, ONE elephant charge can end the thing very quickly, preserving your soldiers.

Off to go try that approach of fighting before reinforcements from Epirus turn 1 recruitment show up........

Update: Hot DAYUM that worked perfectly. Marched Pyrrhus across the river towards Cosentia and purchased ALL Italian Mercenaries. Romans marched up and Fortified, but didn't Muster. Didn't want to assault the fortifications, so I marched around them on Turn 2 and sat myself in between them and Cosentia. Meanwhile, General Whatshisface over in Epirus purchased 1 Macedonian Pike Merc and recruited 3 Bronze Shields, then sailed over the sea on Turn 2 (taking slight losses by Turn 3).

Romans attacked Pyrrhus on their turn, but only with one army of 4 units total. I easily outnumbered and squashed them. Now the Romans are down to 1 army of 4 soldiers while I have a healthy Pyrrhus, plus a reinforcement army of 4 pikes + General that has massive marching range due to the Seaborne fleet movement bonus. Now I can squash Roman Army #2 and take Cosentia, no problem.

In summary: Be Aggressive, Be Be Aggressive. Also, Mercenaries are your friend.

[Lord Dakier]

I can also confirm that by following the same strategy I have been able to pretty much blitz the Romans and currently have left the Romans with only Asculum and Ariminium. Even the Etrurians are still alive. I have Rome on the backfoot and managed to retain most of the grand alliance against them I previously had, although annoyingly it's not helped at all really.

With Rome in my possession and all of Italia it gives me the ability to turn Italia into a military focused province and Latium into a financial powerhouse as I begin to finish off the Romans.

[Legio X Gemina]

Looking good! I started my Epirus campaign about 2-3 days ago after stumbling across you thread. What I did was immediately train some Chalkaspides and bring them overseas from Apollonia. Immediately built a barracks in Taras and pumped out some light hoplites. Took Consentia within 5 turns? Met their bulk army on the way to the last province in that region and beat them. Elephants are op!

Weirdly enough I didn't get an Italy in Turmoil. Idk if that happened for you. Maybe Magna Graecia has to be secured and retaken for Italy in Turmoil to pop up?

[Irishmafia2020]

I have to agree with the general consensus - Raise an army and strike immediately against the romans. Honestly, your best option is to hire mercenaries and attack on the second turn. The problem that you will face is that as you take all of southern Italy, public order will become a problem and you may face rebellions. Ignore them and focus on attacking Rome - attack the cities on the east side of Italy. or coax the main army at Rome to attack - either way they will be weakened enough by about turn 8 that the Etruscans will probably capture Rome proper... Remember to use your elephants well - I got several easy victories based around elephants and mercenaries. Once Rome is contained you can recapture southern Italy from the various local factions that have emerged during the rebellions. Just remember that if you leave the Romans with even one single city they will remain at war with you forever... I beat the Romans in 10 turns as Epirus in my current game, but it took another 30 turns to actually conquer them!

[Nordling]

The problem with Epirus is that you cant face late game Romans which kinda sucks. Im playing greek states and face Romans around turn 150. They control half of the world and will be a worthy opponent. If you beat them early game then you lose much of the fun in the late game. I beat Romans as Epirus and then given up on the campaign in turn 80-100. I just felt void in the campaign map as there were no more Romans :/

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

The problem with Epirus is that you cant face late game Romans which kinda sucks. Im playing greek states and face Romans around turn 150. They control half of the world and will be a worthy opponent. If you beat them early game then you lose much of the fun in the late game. I beat Romans as Epirus and then given up on the campaign in turn 80-100. I just felt void in the campaign map as there were no more Romans :/

I agree. It's a double edged knife. No Romans no party, right ?

[Lord Dakier]

The problem with Epirus is that you cant face late game Romans which kinda sucks. Im playing greek states and face Romans around turn 150. They control half of the world and will be a worthy opponent. If you beat them early game then you lose much of the fun in the late game. I beat Romans as Epirus and then given up on the campaign in turn 80-100. I just felt void in the campaign map as there were no more Romans :/

I think the Romans should be more accepting of peace when they're on the back foot because I didn't mind taking just Italia and leaving them with Sicily. That last push into Latium certainly cost me a lot of time, manpower and money, but now my game is missing that extra element.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

I think the Romans should be more accepting of peace when they're on the back foot because I didn't mind taking just Italia and leaving them with Sicily. That last push into Latium certainly cost me a lot of time, manpower and money, but now my game is missing that extra element.

We could have a very different game if diplomacy was one of Rome's 2 strong features, sadly it's not.

[Geffalrus]

Haha, yeah, part of the Devil's Bargain of playing Epirus is that you get the fun of being the first to fight Rome and truly change history..........with the downside of not facing them late game when they are a powerhouse. Granted, if I wanted that late game pike vs. legion experience, I would probably play as Macedon or the Seleucids. The Epirus is just......very straightforward in terms of what your early game objectives are. You immediately fight Rome and try to kill it. Or you try to recreate history by failing? Never tried that, honestly........

How I usually role-play the Epirus late game is viewing him as kind of Alexander the Great 2.0. Turn up the Hamilton Soundtrack ("Why do you fight like you're running out of time?") and never stop picking fights with new enemies. Become the Alexander of the West by conquering the West Mediterranean Basin before Pyrrhus dies. Then I usually have his successor consolidate and then maybe the next king/emperor can create the Epirus version of the Roman Empire by conquering the East. Good times, though I rarely have the persistence to pull it off. I get easily distracted by trying out a new faction........