Strategic Vision of TWC

[MCM]

Ah I found it.
The most important thread at TWC.

A lot of ground was covered by all of you earlier, but I think that things didnt progress.

Would anyone be willing to continue to discuss ideas/ possible solutions on this subject, especially since two years have passed, and maybe perspectives have changed.

Otherwise I will let it drop.

[AnthoniusII]

Inmypoint of view that experessed many times in the past TWC is an old Horse proud but old. The most honorable thing we can do is to kill it fast painless. Even the greatest modders and tool makers now say "if you want our help come to our discord or donate to our patreon acount. I am sorry to say this but its time for TWC to die. No modders left and only story makers , award carriers and nothing relevant to TW gamming.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Inmypoint of view that experessed many times in the past TWC is an old Horse proud but old. The most honorable thing we can do is to kill it fast painless. Even the greatest modders and tool makers now say "if you want our help come to our discord or donate to our patreon acount. I am sorry to say this but its time for TWC to die. No modders left and only story makers , award carriers and nothing relevant to TW gamming.

absolutely not! keep the site alive as long as possible! modders do need it - even if some say otherwise.

[AnthoniusII]

absolutely not! keep the site alive as long as possible! modders do need it - even if some say otherwise.

TWC and I have something in comon we are help less. So for both of us (TWC and Me ) an honorable death is the only solution. A death standing alone with dignity.
The difference is the date of death. Mine will be when no help will come soon. TWC 's the same but the non modders will make sure that with their silly threads will make TWC's death a sufairing one.

[Akar]

keep the site alive as long as possible!

^ This.

[AnthoniusII]

^ This.

With what? Politics? In game stories (AAR)? With endless discusions of how to add pointless awards ton non modding members simply to show your selvs as leaders of rulers of a fiction community?
TWC = Total War Center
TWC does not mean Akar's or anyone else's personal show of superiority . Tell me since when you have made your own modding addition to this forum to keep it alive?

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

Ah I found it.
The most important thread at TWC.

A lot of ground was covered by all of you earlier, but I think that things didnt progress.

Would anyone be willing to continue to discuss ideas/ possible solutions on this subject, especially since two years have passed, and maybe perspectives have changed.

I think I could certainly answer the questions better and far cleaner than I could when the thread first started. But the answers themselves wouldn't add very much; the issues with a 'centrally pushed' (ie, via owner) initiative still exist, and everything else pretty much can only come from individuals doing what they can and taking initiative or opportunity where it presents itself. My idea is that the site can do certain things well and it should stress those, maintain the rest as possible, and set aside or minimize things it cannot do justice and likely will not grow much on until the overall status can change. For my part there are various things I can do to make certain areas more efficient, up to date, or better references for people coming in. Those are my priorities at this time. Alas, the Curia is not one of them, and any priority for its development is very low unless someone else sees opportunities I do not and pushes for them. But of course, if we bring things up we might be able to better see those opportunities. So if there's anything in specific you'd like to raise as an angle, by all means, especially as a fresh voice to the subject.

Inmypoint of view that experessed many times in the past TWC is an old Horse proud but old. The most honorable thing we can do is to kill it fast painless. Even the greatest modders and tool makers now say "if you want our help come to our discord or donate to our patreon acount. I am sorry to say this but its time for TWC to die. No modders left and only story makers , award carriers and nothing relevant to TW gamming.

If there is anything we should 'kill', it is this attitude, as it is a blight on the little things that can be done. The persistence of the site hurts no one; if someone is dissatisfied and does not see a point or any value in it, they can leave, if they derive some form of enjoyment, they stay and do as they will, and there are many users like that including modders who you do a disservice with this message. It's one thing to be critical to observe things that can be better, though we've done more than enough of that. It is another to be posting in an effort to end what does exist, which in my view does not contribute to TWC in any way and so that user is the problem, not the site. I would not put it this strongly but for your more clear following message,

TWC and I have something in comon we are help less. So for both of us (TWC and Me ) an honorable death is the only solution. A death standing alone with dignity.
The difference is the date of death. Mine will be when no help will come soon. TWC 's the same but the non modders will make sure that with their silly threads will make TWC's death a sufairing one.

Just as you alone must find opportunities - hard to find, but always there - to continue your path, so too is TWC itself entitled to carry on until it is technically impossible. What you're doing here is not constructive and if there was ever a wrong approach, this is it. Those who can do no more have no shame in retiring, unless they are trying to bring other people down with them. Please, cease.

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

[Alwyn]

If there is anything we should 'kill', it is this attitude, as it is a blight on the little things that can be done. The persistence of the site hurts no one; if someone is dissatisfied and does not see a point or any value in it, they can leave, if they derive some form of enjoyment, they stay and do as they will, and there are many users like that including modders who you do a disservice with this message.

Well said!

There's nothing wrong with talking about politics or telling stories about a campaign (or based on the game-world). I enjoy reading AARs and there are some gems being written in the Writers' Study - if you haven't read tales such as Kilo11's Written in Sand, theSilentKiller's A World Gone Mad and McScottish's Far Have I Travelled, I recommend having a look. It's worth having a look in the Artists' Studio too, I'm impressed with the quality of the entries in the screenshot competitions, and there are some amazing collections of screenshots, videos and artistic projects there.

I wouldn't give up on modding activities yet. Kind people are posting tools and tutorials in the Rome Remastered workshop, it's becoming a treasure store of modding resources. I'm excited to see modding developments such as Sara Temer's Last Alliance Total War (with an update posted on March 1) and the Rise of Mordor mod (updated on January 4) and new mods such as Lordsith's Seven Years War mod (released on February 28), and Absolutum Dominion (released on January 24) - and those are simply examples, they don't do justice to the total amount of modding talent being shared here.

I'm inspired by the creativity and the willingness to contribute to help others have a good time on TWC, whether it's telling stories, crafting screenshots, creating modding tools and tutorial, participating in competitions or other activities.

[z3n]

TWC's greatest asset is the fact that it is public and searchable on google, but the greatest drawback is the slow speed its pages load at; due to its database not being optimized in the slightest and there are numerous issues with its plugins.

I do not understand why the last TWC technical staff member was appointed 12 years ago. It's not as if we have never had people who could help address the technical issues in the time since the last appointment. I quit the site myself due to its intense slowness a long time back, and it hasn't been fixed at any point since.


____

Actually I may be underestimating the length of time since the last appointment, it could be 15+ years ago. There's really serious stagnation in that regard and I wish we could find out what the root cause is for the lack of appointments to technical staff. Discussions over the years don't really seem to set any gears in motion though.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

As far as I'm aware there is a significant volunteer shortage of people truly familiar with the ins and outs of VB4, the current platform; it can only be optimized so far and even if it manages to be optimized further, it remains capped by TWC's unique status in terms of custom integrations and sheer scale over its age, making it a difficult subject for any level of forum savvy volunteer. Technical volunteers/appointments are an issue, but part of the greater issue per the site owner's public statements some time back is how TWC's very operation strains the forum paradigm even when looking into more modern forum software. So adding staff to tech, while potentially nice for smaller things may not solve issues like the fundamental performance (if anything as of late it's been quite good, compared to some years ago). If there is someone around with considerable insight or specific ideas into this line of thought, perhaps it would be something to start from.

[z3n]

Both PHP and MySQL have been around for almost 30 years. They're not exactly an unknown, and API requests to the underlying VB4 software isn't really a complex endeavour. API requests are an elementary application of code that any first year can accomplish, it's certainly not technical wizardry and any determined effort by a person entirely unfamiliar to coding in the first place could likely succeed with enough trial and error; granted a lack of optimization would be in place as they would not understand the complexities of algorithmic solutions within time-space mathematical complexities but they could make a brave effort. Now if we look at the volunteer pool, I personally know of 5 professional coders on the EB2 team alone. We have a ton of talent on TWC, and PHP specifically is a simplistic language; it's not really C++ or anything truly complex. In short, we should have added at least one or two people to the technical team over the past 15 years but we have not, and therefore, the slowness persists.

[MCM]

This is good all- I appreciate your time and obvious concern.

I think compiling a nuts and bolts list of both the strengths and weaknesses of the site would be a good start.
Weaknesses would be best represented with possible solutions.

And as noted above- mindset is everything. If we have defeated ourselves without even taking a move, what does it say about us?

Compiling the list needs to be accurate and unemotional- that way we can focus on possible solutions.

I admit to not having much background in recent site history, so bear with me

I do also very much appreciate that there are years of frustrations and many emotions attached to this site, but we need to move on from that in order to move forward.
So, chins up- let's have a good hard look.

Feel free to educate/update me as needed.

---------------------------

As a separate aside, I remember 16 years ago when I first came to this site as the unconventional leader of an old modding team(RTR). It was a powerful place. Breathtakingly powerful and highly addictive. I think the site was mainly responsible for the failure of my relationship at the time

What struck me then, and may be one clue for our future from here, was the sense of community. There was a common shared vision, and it was expressed in varying ways. I was in the modder camp, and during my brief foray into Hex I quite honestly cast a wary eye on the Curia. There was honestly too much point scoring going on at that time. Political banter was never my scene, but I did recognize that it was a great honor for all those who were on the site who contributed in whatever way they could.

The Curia was a goal for many.

For me, I just wanted the site to thrive. I made lots of mistakes. Pissed off Sim (for those of you who remember him) with all my suggested changes and ideas, but in my defense I was already caught up in the start-up world which promotes change for changes sake.

I do appreciate the value of keeping traditions, but at some point- and that time is now- we need to have a good long look

Modding Teams that have now moved to Patreon (which makes sense to me in some ways) dont get to enjoy that natural air of innovation that was the life blood of this site. The competitiveness, the wondering what the competition was up to and the baited breath that was palpable when a new release came out.

Not to mention the cross-team cooperation, the lifelong friendships formed.

So if modding is so important, there will need to be a concrete strategy to lure them back, with concrete benefits for being here.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

This is good all- I appreciate your time and obvious concern.

I think compiling a nuts and bolts list of both the strengths and weaknesses of the site would be a good start.
Weaknesses would be best represented with possible solutions.

And as noted above- mindset is everything. If we have defeated ourselves without even taking a move, what does it say about us?

Compiling the list needs to be accurate and unemotional- that way we can focus on possible solutions.

I admit to not having much background in recent site history, so bear with me

I don't recall seeing a straight-up list in previous discussion, so by all means. Feel free to drop some down, anyone else can do the same, I'll get to the subject later and maybe we'll have a neat collective to think about.

[MCM]

I can make it easier- Anyone interested in contributing to the list just shoot me a message and I will compile it.

Look forward to your contributions.

[Flinn]

I think I could certainly answer the questions better and far cleaner than I could when the thread first started. But the answers themselves wouldn't add very much; the issues with a 'centrally pushed' (ie, via owner) initiative still exist, and everything else pretty much can only come from individuals doing what they can and taking initiative or opportunity where it presents itself. My idea is that the site can do certain things well and it should stress those, maintain the rest as possible, and set aside or minimize things it cannot do justice and likely will not grow much on until the overall status can change. For my part there are various things I can do to make certain areas more efficient, up to date, or better references for people coming in. Those are my priorities at this time. Alas, the Curia is not one of them, and any priority for its development is very low unless someone else sees opportunities I do not and pushes for them. But of course, if we bring things up we might be able to better see those opportunities. So if there's anything in specific you'd like to raise as an angle, by all means, especially as a fresh voice to the subject.

If there is anything we should 'kill', it is this attitude, as it is a blight on the little things that can be done. The persistence of the site hurts no one; if someone is dissatisfied and does not see a point or any value in it, they can leave, if they derive some form of enjoyment, they stay and do as they will, and there are many users like that including modders who you do a disservice with this message. It's one thing to be critical to observe things that can be better, though we've done more than enough of that. It is another to be posting in an effort to end what does exist, which in my view does not contribute to TWC in any way and so that user is the problem, not the site. I would not put it this strongly but for your more clear following message,

Just as you alone must find opportunities - hard to find, but always there - to continue your path, so too is TWC itself entitled to carry on until it is technically impossible. What you're doing here is not constructive and if there was ever a wrong approach, this is it. Those who can do no more have no shame in retiring, unless they are trying to bring other people down with them. Please, cease.

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Actually I may be underestimating the length of time since the last appointment, it could be 15+ years ago. There's really serious stagnation in that regard and I wish we could find out what the root cause is for the lack of appointments to technical staff. Discussions over the years don't really seem to set any gears in motion though.

This is a question only GED can answer.

This is good all- I appreciate your time and obvious concern.

I think compiling a nuts and bolts list of both the strengths and weaknesses of the site would be a good start.
Weaknesses would be best represented with possible solutions.

And as noted above- mindset is everything. If we have defeated ourselves without even taking a move, what does it say about us?

Compiling the list needs to be accurate and unemotional- that way we can focus on possible solutions.

I admit to not having much background in recent site history, so bear with me

I do also very much appreciate that there are years of frustrations and many emotions attached to this site, but we need to move on from that in order to move forward.
So, chins up- let's have a good hard look.

Feel free to educate/update me as needed.

---------------------------

As a separate aside, I remember 16 years ago when I first came to this site as the unconventional leader of an old modding team(RTR). It was a powerful place. Breathtakingly powerful and highly addictive. I think the site was mainly responsible for the failure of my relationship at the time

What struck me then, and may be one clue for our future from here, was the sense of community. There was a common shared vision, and it was expressed in varying ways. I was in the modder camp, and during my brief foray into Hex I quite honestly cast a wary eye on the Curia. There was honestly too much point scoring going on at that time. Political banter was never my scene, but I did recognize that it was a great honor for all those who were on the site who contributed in whatever way they could.

The Curia was a goal for many.

For me, I just wanted the site to thrive. I made lots of mistakes. Pissed off Sim (for those of you who remember him) with all my suggested changes and ideas, but in my defense I was already caught up in the start-up world which promotes change for changes sake.

I do appreciate the value of keeping traditions, but at some point- and that time is now- we need to have a good long look

Modding Teams that have now moved to Patreon (which makes sense to me in some ways) dont get to enjoy that natural air of innovation that was the life blood of this site. The competitiveness, the wondering what the competition was up to and the baited breath that was palpable when a new release came out.

Not to mention the cross-team cooperation, the lifelong friendships formed.

So if modding is so important, there will need to be a concrete strategy to lure them back, with concrete benefits for being here.

You might want to have a look at this, I think it's a good recap of what the overall situation is. OFC you need to have confidence in me and my knowledge and experience with TWC.

[MCM]

Thanks Finn- will do.

[Jake Armitage]

you'll never be able of luring back the modders to TWC
never, and I'm just being pragmatic

you may like it or not but discord (not sure why you said patreon but patreon is not the place where mods are released and discussed at all) is the place since 5 years or so.

for 2 reasons:

1) phones, 'cause people simply use smartphones (I usually don't but that's just me) + pc. You can't change that, people will use phones whatever you promise them. And you can't use a phone on TWC, it's almost impossible

2) discord is better in any aspect. Yeah, it is.
I had doubts 2/3 years ago when even DeI (Rome2) seriously started moving its stuff there... but it simply is true, discord is objectively better.
It's quick, it's simple, it's customizable, it lets you upload... in one word it lets you have control on it.
And basically it has no drawbacks.
I could point you to at least 5 general modding channels (from rome 1 to wh3), and 20 or so specific mods channels.
TW modding community is extremely alive and active there, and discord permits the community to be in the same time focused and elastic
That's the place where the modding communities are now, no way they'll move elsewhere (until next internet evolution ofc)

I'm just talking about direct daily experience, I'm an active modder (Rome2, attila and troy), I'm inside at least 5 different projects and following wh stuff too, out of curiosity

so... the solutions are these ones:

1) if you care about the TW modding scene and if you care about having relations with other modders... you go to discord

2) if you care about TWC and you're a modder... you try to use TWC as a sort of silent repository for your mod features

I already tried to convince many guys about point 2) but I simply failed
If you don't feel something for TWC (people here do but 95% of the nowadays community doesn't) you simply won't use a platform that is worse on a practical level, and that barely has public

Said that... the more TWC is alive the better it is
How to do so... I don't know, there is no solution and it depends on how much GED will keep the forum online, I think
Or if he sells it to someone who is interested into doing something
What could this something be... I wouldn't know either

What the curia does or doesn't do... won't change pretty much anything, I fear

[MCM]

Thanks for the update Jake.

All good perspectives. Appreciate the input.

[Akar]

That's the place where the modding communities are now, no way they'll move elsewhere (until next internet evolution ofc)

If TWC insists on trying to remain relevant with modders it must find a way to offer something to modders that discord doesn't, and without participation from the owner I don't see that happening.

TWC does not mean Akar's or anyone else's personal show of superiority . Tell me since when you have made your own modding addition to this forum to keep it alive?

There are countless ways one can contribute to TWC aside from creating mods - my contributions to TWC are as numerous as they are irrelevant and off topic.

Aside from the obvious contributions, every very positive post and act of community contributes to TWC.

How to do so... I don't know, there is no solution and it depends on how much GED will keep the forum online, I think

Yep.

If the owner doesn't give a , we're essentially stuck treading water until he does.

Honestly I can't remember the last time I played a total war game - that's not why I'm here anymore, I'm here for the community. TW may have been why I stumbled on the site, but the community is the reason I kept coming back.

[Muizer]

I'm afraid I have to concur with Jake.

In the old days of RTR, we used IRC for synchronous communication, a code repository with SVN and the forum for asynchronous communication, exchanging reference material and presentation to the outside world. Now it's enough to have a GIT repository and Discord.
I suppose the only advantage TWC has is Google. That means that in terms of gaming/modding TWC at best can serve as a relay point or knowledge repository. I may overestimate the utility of this though. The instagram generation does not seem bothered at all about drifting from one community to the next based on word-of-mouth alone.

So in this regard I think Antonius's arguments, abrasive and possibly vindictive as they may seem, are correct. Due to factors mostly beyond our control, where modding and gaming is concerned, TWC can no longer live up to what it once was (and what it still pretends to be).


If there's a parallel in TWC's past that might be a guide to the future, perhaps we have to look at the period before TW and TW modding really took off (the release of RTW). Back then, TWC was a place for people who happened to share an interest in TW gaming, but wanted to discuss other things as well. I think the best that could possibly be achieved is for TWC to be some sort of tavern at a crossroads. For most not so much a destination as a stop over, but for some a place to build a community.

The days of being a Red Giant are over, but perhaps we can live on as a White Dwarf.