Horrific statistics about the mental health of teenage girls in USA \ Globally

[Infidel144]

No both are worse, as we don't know how many have lied because of religious shame or wife is hearing the telephon poll from the other telephon in the bedroom too.

"both are worse".
?
Are you now disavowing your source which you claimed was "more realistic"?

If your source was also "worse" why did you claim it was "more realistic"?

And both are worse, as they are calculating young men between 15 and 25 in, which are in the prime time of getting sexual contacts in school, college university.

Relevant are the men + 25 and there are 30% of single men going to prostitutes - and i'm missing the married men here, whats another weakness in this study.

A wedding ring doesn't make you to a saint without sexual fetishes/desires/wishes.

And in Mishkin's example it is a married man. So if we want to compare numbers with his case, we must took the teenagers and twens out.

Since mishkin's (fallacious) example was a married man (which I pointed out) why did you highlight (bold and underline the 30% statistic for single men) when providing your "more realistic" data?

[Infidel144]

That said:
@Infidel, do you honestly think the sex industry of USA, from streetwalkers to high class prostitutes, is held aloft by 15% of the men going to them once or twice in their lives? Really?
Or do you think married men would admit to making use of such services? Which, as far as I know, are illegal in most of USA.

You question here is irrelevant. What I think has nothing to do with the statistics presented.
I.e. you are just creating some sort of strawman. I did not introduce the 15% statistic.
Really.

However, the 15% statistic seems in line with (or slightly higher than) the statistics from other western countries per the data sumskilz supplied. Except for Spain:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A 1996 survey including of 1145 Swedish men aged 18–74 years found that 12.7% of the respondents had paid for sexual services. (Månsson, 1996) Estimates from other Western and Northern European countries have shown that about 12.9% of Norwegian men (Schei & Stigum, 2010), 11–13% of Finnish men (Haavio-Mannila & Rotkirch, 2000) had at some point paid for sex. Paying or giving other types of compensation or reimbursement for sex is a crime in Sweden since 1999, when the purchase of sexual services became illegal. The law is aimed to increase gender equality and protect vulnerable women from exploitation and violence. The Swedish strategy for gender equality also includes the aim to reduce the demand for prostitution. A 2010 longitudinal internet survey among Swedes, Norwegians, and Danes aged 18–65 investigated the effects of criminalization on the demand and purchase of sex. In Norway, the purchase of sexual services is illegal since 2009, and in Denmark, it is still legal. The proportion who reported having bought sex during the past 6 months was lowest in Sweden (0.29%), higher in Denmark (1.3%) and in Norway (0.93%). The conclusion of the authors is that the effect of criminalization is a decrease in demand and purchase of sexual services (Kotsadam & Jakobsson, 2014). In the U.S., 16% of men reported having paid for sex at least once in their lives, and 0.5% reported doing so at least once a year (Michael, Gagnon, Laumann, & Kolata, 1994). In Russia, it was found that 10–13% of men had purchased sex at least once (Haavio-Mannila & Rotkirch, 2000). In Holland the comparable figure is 14%, in Switzerland 19%, in the UK 7–10%, and in Spain 39% (Leridon, van Zesson, & Hubert, 1998

Only because you are calculating the Teens and Twens and the Grandpas in, which would like to go too, but can't anymore, have lost the interest.

And now Ageism too...:
"American research on men 60–84 years of age show advancing age to be positively associated with increased frequency of paying for sex."
per the source sumskilz provided

[Lord Thesaurian]

A 2004 TNS poll reported 15 percent of all men have paid for sex and 30 percent of single men over age 30 have paid for sex.

Hypothesis: going to prostitutes is bad
Analysis: single men over 30 are twice as likely to visit prostitutes compared to the average trend
Conclusion: men should get married

Wow, you’re really knocking it out of the park with these. Nuclear family on shambleses.

[alhoon]

We are steering away from the main issues I would like to discuss here though. The question was not "how credible are the sources about Westerners going to prostitutes" but the opinion that "Broken families / families with severe issues are not as many as Mishkin assumes. Thus, according to alhoon's opinion at least, the healthy (but not ideal) family structure remains a very important pillar of support that would mitigate the impact of bad things to the children. "

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Boring you are simply unable to work with surveys and see were their shortcomings are.

In both cases it makes no sense to add the teens and old men to the peer group for obvious reasons - except you want to decrease the numbers.

And the second survey has simply not examined the number of married men.

But hey believe you have won.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Boring you are simply unable to work with surveys and see were their weaknesses are.

In both cases it makes no sense to add the teens and old men to the peer group for obvious reasons.

And the second survey has simply not examined the number of married men.

But hey believe you have won.

Wait so your source is “weak” and has nothing to do with your argument? Why did you post it then?

[chriscase]

We are steering away from the main issues I would like to discuss here though. The question was not "how credible are the sources about Westerners going to prostitutes" but the opinion that "Broken families / families with severe issues are not as many as Mishkin assumes. Thus, according to alhoon's opinion at least, the healthy (but not ideal) family structure remains a very important pillar of support that would mitigate the impact of bad things to the children. "

Well from what I have heard from various healthcare providers for my teenage children struggling right here in America - you know, the allegedly "degenrate" society at issue - what has a huge impact is the presence of friendly, accepting adults who act perceptibly as allies to a youngster in distress. It could be a teacher, a parent, a member of the extended family, or just a friend. So if those kind of adults can be found in the family, the family is an asset. If not... not so much.

My skepticism is with the "muh family values" argument, which we've heard from social conservatives here, like ... forever. That's why I'm neither particularly impressed by or interested in the stats about divorce. They get thrown in our faces on a yearly basis, and there's never any answer to the very questions being asked in this thread: Do you think a violent, abusive marriage should be protected? Is it really so good for the kids to keep a deeply dysfunctional family together? What actual, actionable solutions are being proposed?

I mean you can go ahead and find some statistics on whether there's a correlation between reading science fiction and satanism, but until there is some sensible, definite action other than banning books I don't really care what your statistics say, because we're not banning books.

On a side note, I have no idea why BLM would be part of this conversation, other than as more irrelevant fodder for far-right propaganda.

[fkizz]

Well those who feel the pain have more clues in how it works, a group of research/analysts whatever has to collect information on what the people who belong to the rise in suicidal statistics have in common. I'm assuming none of us is a teenager anymore, and the pressures they face as a teenager are different (back then being connected to tech was to the technology/objective lab verifiable sciences/videogames enthusiast, nowadays connection to tech is 300% normal for any person without minimal interest in said fields) so the social layout is different.
Trying to guess back will have a certain bias of not adjusting to the new variables. Only based into said collected information from the said rising suicidal wave of teenagers can we have more objectivity on where we're stepping.

We have more classical and generalist example of this, Max Weber study "On Suicide", but it adresses too many different age groups without focusing on a specific one, also it's from some time ago, and here we're talking about rising suicide on teenagers, today.

[Lord Thesaurian]

My skepticism is with the "muh family values" argument, which we've heard from social conservatives here, like ... forever. That's why I'm neither particularly impressed by or interested in the stats about divorce. They get thrown in our faces on a yearly basis, and there's never any answer to the very questions being asked in this thread: Do you think a violent, abusive marriage should be protected? Is it really so good for the kids to keep a dysfunctional family together? What actual, actionable solutions are being proposed?

The question being asking in this thread is why kids are having a mental health crisis. Deflecting to domestic violence is irrelevant since it is not a primary driver of the increase in divorce. Plus, as I said, single parent households are more likely to experience these kinds of abuse, so it’s a self refuting argument in the first place.

What do you guys think? What are the reasons or some of the reasons, in your opinion for these horrific statistics? What can society do to reverse the trend?

One main reason for this is the deliberate destruction of the nuclear family, as has been empirically proven for decades. Just because emotional insecurities or perhaps guilt might make it really important for some people to tell themselves that can’t be, doesn’t mean it isn’t. The actionable solution is to decrease divorce rates and single parenthood by getting married and staying that way if you have kids, as was the norm until recently. At the policy level, addressing the institutional incentives and messaging which facilitated the increases in divorce and single parenthood to begin with will help. Both of these points are objectively more substantive and relevant than anything else mentioned in this thread so far.

I mean you can go ahead and find some statistics on whether there's a correlation between reading science fiction and satanism, but until there is some sensible, definite action other than banning books I don't really care what your statistics say, because we're not banning books.

“Getting married is like burning cats. It’s like banning books. It’s like feudalism. It’s like Caesar and Cleopatra….” Honestly, how many irrelevant comparisons can you come up with to discredit basic facts without having to refute them, before you actually justify your position with anything comparable to said facts?

On a side note, I have no idea why BLM would be part of this conversation, other than as more irrelevant fodder for far-right propaganda.

On a side note, calling the most impactful global civil rights network in a generation irrelevant is a white supremacist trope that highlights the way systemical racisms isolate white people from the negative effects of their racism, which black people experience daily, everywhere, always. Please consider ways to decenter your views from white, Western perspectives about race, not just about marriage. BIPOC lives like mine literally depend on it.

[mishkin]

Hi, I'm sorry but I haven't had time to carefully read the last posts, what would be the number of wonderful fathers from the traditional family (mom, dad and their biological children) who frequented the services of prostitutes, 10%? Would you be happy with that number? Would that be the family you would defend?

[Infidel144]

Hi, I'm sorry but I haven't had time to carefully read the last posts, what would be the number of wonderful fathers from the traditional family (mom, dad and their biological children) who frequented the services of prostitutes, 10%? Would you be happy with that number? Would that be the family you would defend?

According to you, it seems to be 40% who do so once a week.
Unfortunately, you have not supported your claim...

I also have not noticed anyone defending fathers/husbands frequenting sex-workers (whom you refer to as "whores").

[Sir Adrian]

Hi, I'm sorry but I haven't had time to carefully read the last posts, what would be the number of wonderful fathers from the traditional family (mom, dad and their biological children) who frequented the services of prostitutes, 10%? Would you be happy with that number? Would that be the family you would defend?

So an entire system that has functioned for thousands of years and built the modern world, including, ironically, your ability to write those words for others to read, is invalid because less than 1/10 people in your area are unfaithful. Absolutely flawless logic.

[chriscase]

The question being asking in this thread is why kids are having a mental health crisis. Deflecting to domestic violence is irrelevant since it is not a primary driver of the increase in divorce. Plus, as I said, single parent households are more likely to experience these kinds of abuse, so it’s a self refuting argument in the first place.

One main reason for this is the deliberate destruction of the nuclear family, as has been empirically proven for decades. Just because emotional insecurities or perhaps guilt might make it really important for some people to tell themselves that can’t be, doesn’t mean it isn’t. The actionable solution is to decrease divorce rates and single parenthood by getting married and staying that way if you have kids, as was the norm until recently. At the policy level, addressing the institutional incentives and messaging which facilitated the increases in divorce and single parenthood to begin with will help. Both of these points are objectively more substantive and relevant than anything else mentioned in this thread so far.

“Getting married is like burning cats. It’s like banning books. It’s like feudalism. It’s like Caesar and Cleopatra….” Honestly, how many irrelevant comparisons can you come up with to discredit basic facts without having to refute them, before you actually justify your position with anything comparable to said facts?

On a side note, calling the most impactful global civil rights network in a generation irrelevant is a white supremacist trope that highlights the way systemical racisms isolate white people from the negative effects of their racism, which black people experience daily, everywhere, always. Please consider ways to decenter your views from white, Western perspectives about race, not just about marriage. BIPOC lives like mine literally depend on it.

Hey maybe we should remind people not to murder or rape. You figure all those divorcees just needed to be reminded not to get divorced? Seems like a pretty flimsy plan. Hard to see how BLM has accomplished "the deliberate destruction of the nuclear family," particularly in statistics dating back to the 1950s. Did they invent a time machine?

So really, let's suppose you are right and divorce and atheism are the causes of teenage distress. How do you propose to actually change any of that? So far we've got "Just tell people to stay married" and, I suppose, "Just tell people to believe in God". You don't think that's been tried? Perhaps sterner measures are called for. You know... for the children.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Hard to see how BLM has accomplished "the deliberate destruction of the nuclear family," particularly in statistics dating back to the 1950s. Did they invent a time machine?

Not unless you think the American Left didn’t exist until 2014. The point of including the BLM example was to briefly refute your claims that A) the nuclear family doesn’t exist and B) whatever happened to it is a total mystery lost to ancient history. Furthermore, it was to establish that the eradication of the nuclear family, far from being a reactionary fantasy, is still a top civil rights priority today.

Hey maybe we should remind people not to murder or rape. You figure all those divorcees just needed to be reminded not to get divorced? Seems like a pretty flimsy plan.

So really, let's suppose you are right and divorce and atheism are the causes of teenage distress. How do you propose to actually change any of that? So far we've got "Just tell people to stay married" and, I suppose, "Just tell people to believe in God". You don't think that's been tried? Perhaps sterner measures are called for. You know... for the children.

No, actually, it hasn’t been tried. Instead, civil rights leaders backed by national institutions brag about efforts to unite people against the concept of the nuclear family. Even if that on its own hadn’t already addressed most of the indignant rhetoric you’ve substituted for an argument, I’ve also provided a source with an entire section on policy ideas.

[alhoon]

Hi, I'm sorry but I haven't had time to carefully read the last posts, what would be the number of wonderful fathers from the traditional family (mom, dad and their biological children) who frequented the services of prostitutes, 10%? Would you be happy with that number? Would that be the family you would defend?

As explained by Morticia, the traditional family was for millenia "whomever of the extended family was alive and children". I don't know why you are talking about the traditional family being "mom, dad and their children". That's a less healthy family IMO than "mom, dad, their children, the grandparents visiting 3-4 times per week, cousins, uncles and nephews visiting often too."

So really, let's suppose you are right and divorce and atheism are the causes of teenage distress.

As a religious person, I would say that I would like to see stats about atheism being an important cause for teenage suicides and depression. Thinking there's nothing after death and that there's no morality aside of man-made constructs etc. etc. can bring distress, but I doubt it is as important factor as ... the examples in @Miskin's post. Or an alcoholic parent. Or the father being a nice guy and all, but a sailor, thus absent for months at a time. etc.

[Lord Thesaurian]

As a religious person, I would say that I would like to see stats about atheism being an important cause for teenage suicides and depression.

See post 3

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

See post 3*

* From an conservative christian institute, which mission is to value "family, tradition, and integrity" and influence the public opinion.

Naturally they will publish unpartial studies like Exxon Mobile had done about Climate Change.

[Lord Thesaurian]

* From an conservative christian institute, which mission is to value "family, tradition, and integrity" and influence the public opinion.

Naturally they will publish unpartial studies like Exxon Mobile had done about Climate Change.

Where does the Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry, the Columbia University College of Clinical Psychology, or the Utah State Department of Health indicate that their mission is to “value "family, tradition, and integrity and influence the public opinion?”

[Infidel144]

Family, tradition and integrity being inherently evil...

[Lord Thesaurian]

Family, tradition and integrity being inherently evil...

Yes, white supremacist cis-normative misogynist homophobic transphobic evil, to be exact. But don’t ask the people who believe that to take responsibility for the consequences of their beliefs.