Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

[alhoon]

I really do wonder, if Trump was to be re-elected, would the democrats then storm the capitol in protest? Even more so, would it then be justifiable resistance to the tyrant? The polarisation in the US doesn't seem to be showing any signs of easing.

They would certainly go much further than "he's not my president" and no, if a crook is democratically elected, you don't get to storm the government building trying to overthrow him. Trump may be many things, but unless his next coup succeeds, he's not a tyrant. If he is elected then he's elected and his opponents would have to live with it.

[swabian]

In my opinion, this is something a great many Republican party high-ups were praying for. The indictment of Trump would weaken his chances to be the party nominee and STILL mobilize his base to come out again in 2024 and vote for anyone with an R. If Trump is convicted, I think (I could be wrong) that he won't be allowed to be elected which means that the Republican party would finally be free to put someone else without alienating millions of his diehard fans.

Oh absolutely. There is also a considerable chance that not enough of the charges stick to prevent his presidency, so that he basically pays more hush money on having paid hush money, just legally enforced this time.
In that case he would emerge to his fans even more as the god emperor. They will see themselves confirmed in all their conspiracy theories about the "deep state" and in all their convictions about what they perceive as the political left, which would render their world view even less permeable for rational arguments and reasoning. For this reason, I remind everybody that this is not a political success for the Democrats in the least.
If anything, it's a total wildcard that can even horribly backfire for the Democrats, of course most painfully so if he gets acquitted which would basically amount to 'literal' free anus bleaching of the political far right.
Trump is simply charged as a US citizen who is accused of crimes, therefore he has to be prosecuted like everybody else who is charged with a felony. That's it, period. This is not in the slightest a victory for the left. I guess most ITT see this, but my overall impression from news media is that many, especially young people, felt they finally have landed a satisfying kick in the political opponent's crotch. Not so, not so. This can even be seen as potentially dangerous from the Dem's political perspective. So I implicitly present this as an argument against the accusation this would be a Democrat smearing hack job to hastily secure a victory next year.

It remains to be seen how QAnon followers will react to this and if we will see violence in USA. Trump is now officially charged so his followers may become angrier. (...)

I would also like to discuss where things go from here.
The trial will take some time, I think. Which means the campaign would be at full swing before this ends.
If Trump is cleared, he will seek revenge, that is a given. I also expect the democrats to start rioting in protest.

Oh they are angry Karens all the time and they will be even angrier one way or the other - for the reasons outlined above. They will be angrier if he loses in court and they will be angrier if he wins. The former anger would be the neurotic anger of a victim of perceived betrayal and the latter anger would be more the righteous, sanctimonious anger of the lvl 20 paladin when he smites some undead.

So will there be violence? Oh yes, of course. It's of course not only fanatical Trump supporters who might be out for blood, the far left has always been just as nutty and maybe even more zealous and they will of course be out for blood if Trump gets acquitted, as they will be out for blood when he doesn't get acquitted in which case the right wing protesters are going to dick around looking for fights. The fact that this happens is going to raise the levels of stress one way or the other. My guess is though, that the best possible outcome in terms of minimal violence would be if Trump has to pay a fine but is allowed as candidate and then loses the election decisively.

If Trump is convicted, I don't believe he will be in prison, I believe it will be house arrest while he will still be protected by his secret service detail. I hope they won't let him use his influence to contact people and call for violence.

Very likely.

What do you guys think?
Will Trump be convicted or not? Will this indictment help his campaign or not? If cleared do you think we will see large riots? If he is CONVICTED do you think we will see terrorist attacks?
If convicted, do you think he will go to prison or just House Arrest? What would "House Arrest" mean for an ex-pres?

As I said, I don't think this is a political attack against Trump or the GoP. The state prosecution obviously has a sense for how delicate this is, but law is law and they just do what has to be done and that's how it should be. So they will be extremely well prepared, not because it's Democrat agency at work, being wary of a backlash, but because they have a very high sense of responsibility on the matter. Therefore I think it's likely they have something of substance that will indeed stick and he is likely going to be convicted, but his incarceration is the leftists pipe dream who wish the utmost humiliation on their political opponents and that will not happen (and neither would it be wise).

[The spartan]

I'm still waiting for some evidence that the legal action against Trump is politically motivated. Like an order from a political opponent, a leaked email discussing the political goals, etc. Anything direct would be good. I am so tired of the "well doesn't it make sense that..." narrative reasoning.

[Coughdrop addict]

Remember when Trumpers chanted "Lock her up!"? "Her" being Trump's political opponent, Hillary Clinton? Without a trial or due process? Just lock her up? Not so funny now, is it Trumpers?

Be happy in the knowledge that your favorite criminal is getting all the due process he and every other American citizen is granted under the Constitution-which is more than you lot were prepared to grant Trump's political opponent.

[Gigantus]

I'm still waiting for some evidence that the legal action against Trump is politically motivated. Like an order from a political opponent, a leaked email discussing the political goals, etc. Anything direct would be good. I am so tired of the "well doesn't it make sense that..." narrative reasoning.

One might argue that Jim Jordan would jump on that with glee - one more item for his 'weaponization of DOJ' committee one presumes? With similar performances, and results in the outcome, as with all the other items?

[Coughdrop addict]

It's a well-known fact about malignant narcissist that, when facing failure or loss, they will often try to pull everyone around them down with them to make them suffer as revenge on the world for the 'wrong' done to the malignant narcissist. Think Jim Jones.

With that in mind, one reason why McCarthy and other republican leaders are making threats about civil war and screaming "weaponization" about Trump's indictment may be because Trump has dirt on them that is at least as bad as what he's been charged with. I have my doubts as to whether anyone in the GOP can feel love or friendship or ever see another person as anything but an object to be used for their benefit and thrown away when no longer convenient, deceit and blackmail appear to be a way of life for them. But I have no doubt that Trump has told them if he goes down, they all go down.

[swabian]

It's a well-known fact about malignant narcissist that, when facing failure or loss, they will often try to pull everyone around them down with them to make them suffer as revenge on the world for the 'wrong' done to the malignant narcissist. Think Jim Jones.

With that in mind, one reason why McCarthy and other republican leaders are making threats about civil war and screaming "weaponization" about Trump's indictment may be because Trump has dirt on them that is at least as bad as what he's been charged with. I have my doubts as to whether anyone in the GOP can feel love or friendship or ever see another person as anything but an object to be used for their benefit and thrown away when no longer convenient, deceit and blackmail appear to be a way of life for them. But I have no doubt that Trump has told them if he goes down, they all go down.

Oof. So, so you really do believe they are all more or less suffering from personality disorders? You're aware that that's not exactly in harmony with what actual psychiatrists think and discuss? It would also imply that personality disorders are actually not disorders at all in that they wouldn't represent anything out of the ordinary. I think that's highly irrational and actualy... yes... an extremist view, sorry. Sad, really.

From the outside, which is of course limited to news media, it does sometimes seem that US society is a bit toxic, but individuals who pathologize one half of the population (without any qualification of course) would be an integral part of this toxicity. I'm saying this without any outrage and I genuinely feel sorry for you, if that is what you truly believe. What can I say...

In all honesty, I think that's bitterness talking. But still, it's very 'peculiar'.

[swabian]

I'm still waiting for some evidence that the legal action against Trump is politically motivated. Like an order from a political opponent, a leaked email discussing the political goals, etc. Anything direct would be good. I am so tired of the "well doesn't it make sense that..." narrative reasoning.

It's also not "the same" or "similar" to what Hilary Clinton did with those classified e-mails. It's scary what people believe these days. They fundamentally distrust science, the news, the government - really any kind of of authority and so they blob up in those groups on facebook and twitter and, well... make up some nonsense. It's like a large quantity of people simply lack any ability of critical thinking and simply make up something that reaffirms their intuitions and resentments. Or is it that they are trained to be easily outraged but internally dismiss most of this quackery?

[Coughdrop addict]

Oof. So, so you really do believe they are all more or less suffering from personality disorders? You're aware that that's not exactly in harmony with what actual psychiatrists think and discuss? It would also imply that personality disorders are actually not disorders at all in that they wouldn't represent anything out of the ordinary. I think that's highly irrational and actualy... yes... an extremist view, sorry. Sad, really.

From the outside, which is of course limited to news media, it does sometimes seem that US society is a bit toxic, but individuals who pathologize one half of the population (without any qualification of course) would be an integral part of this toxicity. I'm saying this without any outrage and I genuinely feel sorry for you, if that is what you truly believe. What can I say...

In all honesty, I think that's bitterness talking. But still, it's very 'peculiar'.

Yes, I do believe that among Republican politicians what we refer to as sociopathy is the norm. Non-sociopaths have been branded RINOs and cast out, or never get anywhere in the party in the first place.

I used to think that the nation needs the GOP to balance out liberals in government, but things have changed. The Republican party has gone completely insane and is getting very dangerous. We've already seen a violent insurgent attack on democracy. And its gonna get worse as the GOP continues to shrink and crumble. It will become a domestic ISIS.

[swabian]

Yes, I do believe that among Republican politicians what we refer to as sociopathy is the norm. Non-sociopaths have been branded RINOs and cast out, or never get anywhere in the party in the first place.

This is virtually impossible. "Sociopathy" is very rare (schizophrenia is more common and similarly extreme) and there is no inclination of this personality type towards conservative views. You will find as many yuppie "sociopaths" as you will find hippie-psychos. These extreme and pathological personality types can politically gravitate towards anything they like and their effect on society is limited to what recklessness and impulsiveness can achieve.
Ultimately, these people are very much a psychiatric minority. Typically, it's individuals who suffer greatly in their private lives and - if made aware - express great desperation and dispair about the damning fact that they are not "normal" and unable to connect to normal society.

I used to think that the nation needs the GOP to balance out liberals in government, but things have changed. The Republican party has gone completely insane and is getting very dangerous. We've already seen a violent insurgent attack on democracy. And its gonna get worse as the GOP continues to shrink and crumble. It will become a domestic ISIS.

You're comparing GOP members to ISIS, why not to the historical NSdAP?

[alhoon]

@Swabian, check what Coughdrop addict is saying and then check how many times I have tried to convince that poster that he is too biased. You will not make a dent, but still, good to try.

[irontaino]

I'm still waiting for some evidence that the legal action against Trump is politically motivated. Like an order from a political opponent, a leaked email discussing the political goals, etc. Anything direct would be good. I am so tired of the "well doesn't it make sense that..." narrative reasoning.

It's with all the evidence that 2020 was stolen, which is to say...in the collective imaginations of the MAGA cult.

[Coughdrop addict]

This is virtually impossible. "Sociopathy" is very rare (schizophrenia is more common and similarly extreme) and there is no inclination of this personality type towards conservative views. You will find as many yuppie "sociopaths" as you will find hippie-psychos. These extreme and pathological personality types can politically gravitate towards anything they like and their effect on society is limited to what recklessness and impulsiveness can achieve.
Ultimately, these people are very much a psychiatric minority. Typically, it's individuals who suffer greatly in their private lives and - if made aware - express great desperation and dispair about the damning fact that they are not "normal" and unable to connect to normal society.

Not true. In fact sociopaths are far more likely to rise to the top of criminal and extremist organizations like the Republican party because of their willingness to harm others without hesitation or remorse. How do you think Stalin got into power?

Back to Trump, his control of the party will likely never be broken for as long as he lives for one very good reason:

For the last 2 or 3 decades the GOP's only purpose has been to feather the nest of the most selfish and conniving of the rich. The voting base was treated with barely-concealed disdain, because Republicans knew they had their vote locked down anyway as long as they pushed whatever the culture war issues of the day were. Trump used this to his advantage to take out all other contenders in 2016. It was not about him trying to 'Make America Great Again', what he did was so simple it caught the GOP completely off-guard; he made the base feel RELEVANT again.

Now understand that Trump himself sees his base as nothing more than easily duped rubes, marks to be taken again and again, and he is right. But he at least understands that you have to sweet talk the mark and stroke his ego a bit for the con to work. And so he told them whatever he thought they wanted to hear, made them feel special.

The GOP still despise their base and treat them with contempt even now, but they recognize that Trump made the base aware of it. Instead of losing the base completely to Trump, they will hang onto him no matter what.

[Coughdrop addict]

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trum...l-case-1807717

U.S. Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart ordered a series of restrictions for former President Donald Trump's legal team to follow when handling discovery materials from the Department of Justice (DOJ) in his criminal case.
Trump, who was indicted earlier this month and arraigned last Tuesday, is facing 37 counts ranging from willful retention of classified documents to obstruction in connection with the DOJ's investigation into his handling of classified documents after leaving office. He is the first former president to face federal charges in United States history.
The indictment, which was brought by DOJ special counsel Jack Smith, accuses Trump of mishandling sensitive presidential records and obstructing government efforts to retrieve them. Trump has maintained his innocence, accusing federal prosecutors of investigating him for political reasons.
On Monday, Reinhart—the same judge who approved a warrant for the FBI raid on Trump's Mar-a-Lago property in August that led to the indictment—issued a series of rulings that restricted Trump from viewing discovery material documents without supervision from his counsel.

In other words, Trump's attorneys are stuck with "supervising" him like a two-year old because he'll hurt himself otherwise.

It's another example of the two-tiered justice system. If he were not wealthy, white, and a Republican, Trump would already be in a cell awaiting trial. Luckily I fully expect Trump to ignore the order, blab about sensitive details on his crying platform, and force the judge's hand.

[Lord Thesaurian]

It's another example of the two-tiered justice system. If he were not wealthy, white, and a Republican, Trump would already be in a cell awaiting trial. Luckily I fully expect Trump to ignore the order, blab about sensitive details on his crying platform, and force the judge's hand.

A timely bit of projection considering Crown Prince Biden the Lesser just had his felony charges stemming from drugs, guns and tax fraud reduced down to “pls no break law for 2 whole yrs thx xoxo.” Not quite the contrast you were looking for, I imagine.

[swabian]

Not true. In fact sociopaths are far more likely to rise to the top of criminal and extremist organizations like the Republican party because of their willingness to harm others without hesitation or remorse. How do you think Stalin got into power?

Yeah I've read about the subject, it's quite fascinating. I think you refer to the concept of psychopathy based on the work of Hervey Cleckley and Robert Hare and Paul Babiak mainly. From the top of my head I can recall that I think Babiak conducted a study according to which certain psychopathic traits, namely those that are not associated with antisocial behavior (like reckless behaviour, substance abuse, violence, etc), are indeed more common among CEOs. The gist was that the distribution of psychopathic traits in that subset is almost normal, but there is a disruption on the far end on the spectrum of psychopathic traits. Which means that apart of a bunch of really psychopathic CEOs, the distribution of psychopathic traits among CEOs has an otherwise normal distribution similar to the general population.

I don't know to what extend this can be generalized to include politicians, but I think it's fair to say, that as a result of a democratic process, the prevalence of psychopaths among elected politicians in Western countries should be markedly lower than it is among CEOs who did not get filtered through a process of public discussion and struggle for approval. The percentage of psychopaths among CEOs was determined to be almost 4 times higher than among the general population, so it's limited to a value between 3% and 4% approximately. As a consequence, a 'more educated' guess would be that in a hypothetical study conducted on politicians (that will never happen for obvious reasons) we might see a prevalence of non-antisocial psychopathy of maybe 1.5% to 2.5% among politicians compared to 0,75% to 1% among the general population (with males being somewhat more psychopathic than females as a general rule).

The gist is that there is no chance in Hell that the majority of any party's representatives is comprised of non-antisocial psychopaths. That didn't even apply to Nazi Germany. As a refernce, look up the term "banaility of evil", coined by political theorist Hannah Arendt in her book "Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil," published in 1963.

Back to Trump, his control of the party will likely never be broken for as long as he lives for one very good reason:

Maybe you remember that I have been an outspoken proponent of the hypothesis that Trump is indeed suffering from clinical, pathological narcissism at it's finest. I also opined on the matter that Trump is, after all, not principally opposed to democracy and not a threat above regular failure in domestic and security politcy. I admit thbat i was partially wrong on that, because Trump likely did keep sensitive documents. I'd rather think this happened in an attampt at 'doing bigger things' than Hillary and Obama. It's childish behavior that would certainly disqualify him for the role as POTUS, but it it is not nearly enough to render his shenanigans comparable to the vile and ruthless aggressiveness and violence shown by actual historical fascists prior and during their ascend to power and further on.

For the last 2 or 3 decades the GOP's only purpose has been to feather the nest of the most selfish and conniving of the rich. The voting base was treated with barely-concealed disdain, because Republicans knew they had their vote locked down anyway as long as they pushed whatever the culture war issues of the day were. Trump used this to his advantage to take out all other contenders in 2016. It was not about him trying to 'Make America Great Again', what he did was so simple it caught the GOP completely off-guard; he made the base feel RELEVANT again.

So you think he rose buried racist and anti-democratic sentiments to the surface and because he's so successful, you equate each and every republican politicial with him and subsume them to this narrativbe. What do you think about the voters? Can you please comment on what you believe is that "base" you spoke of and on the rest? I would appreciate it.

Now understand that Trump himself sees his base as nothing more than easily duped rubes, marks to be taken again and again, and he is right.

Yeah I've seen his speech made in the late 80s/early 90s. This aspect is absolutely there. If I remember correctly, he presented himself as a staunch Democrat voter, but he assigned to himself the ability to easily sway and deceive the Republican voter base. He was a bit more eloquent back then than he is now, but the attitude certainly didn't change. This is surely an undeniable punch in the dick for Trump voters that didn't have any effect. Why do you believe that was the case?

But he at least understands that you have to sweet talk the mark and stroke his ego a bit for the con to work. And so he told them whatever he thought they wanted to hear, made them feel special.

That's certainly what he does. The emphasis of my questions to you would be how much this is attributable to the rest of the GoP. I would appreciate your answer, especially if it stays on the analytical side more so than on the polemical side, but that's up to you of course.

The GOP still despise their base and treat them with contempt even now, but they recognize that Trump made the base aware of it. Instead of losing the base completely to Trump, they will hang onto him no matter what.

As far as I know there are serious attempts at republican emancipation from 'Trumpism', if I may call it like that. What would you say to that?

[Coughdrop addict]

A timely bit of projection considering Crown Prince Biden the Lesser just had his felony charges stemming from drugs, guns and tax fraud reduced down to “pls no break law for 2 whole yrs thx xoxo.” Not quite the contrast you were looking for, I imagine.

Hunter Biden accepting a lesser charge means he admitted to everything and took responsibility of the fact, unlike Trump. If you could point to other people with similar crimes getting much harsher deals to plead guilty you might have something beyond partisan bitterness.

You should be mad at the right wing pundits who lied to you, not Hunter. If they hadn't invented a laundry list of heinous crimes and insisted Hunter must be guilty of them because he is related to someone who beat a Republican in an election, you would not be so disappointed now. See also Chelsea and Hillary Clinton; Sasha, Malia, and Michelle Obama; Paul Pelosi...

I don't know to what extend this can be generalized to include politicians, but I think it's fair to say, that as a result of a democratic process, the prevalence of psychopaths among elected politicians in Western countries should be markedly lower than it is among CEOs who did not get filtered through a process of public discussion and struggle for approval.

This would be correct only if you neglect the influence of environment on behavior, particularly what one is exposed to as a child. Right wing culture in the US is nearly hermetically sealed off from the rest of the country and objective reality. They get their news from only party-approved sources and scorn all others as liars. They are constantly told a communist takeover is imminent and the only thing stopping it is buying more guns. They go to churches that preach that LGBT people and Democrats are literal demons in flesh. Their leaders vilify education as liberal indoctrination and declare teachers perverts out to harm children. Republican voters grow up in a different world, one with vastly different views on right and wrong and even reality verses fantasy. So the Republican voter sees someone who pledges to inflict pain and suffering on a marginalized group not as a pariah, but someone they want representing them.

So you think he rose buried racist and anti-democratic sentiments to the surface and because he's so successful, you equate each and every republican politicial with him and subsume them to this narrativbe. What do you think about the voters? Can you please comment on what you believe is that "base" you spoke of and on the rest? I would appreciate it.

His voting base is defined by three things:

1: Zero-sum thinking. Someone else's gain is seen as their loss. When they see non-whites and LGBT gaining rights or rising in the public eye, they believe it must mean white heterosexuals are being diminished somehow, a sentiment that the GOP has been happy to exploit. Basically the base has decided that if democracy is going to benefit other people besides just themselves, then democracy isn't something they want anymore.

2: Conspiracy theories. By offering hidden or secretive explanations, conspiracy theories give the believer a feeling of control in a situation that otherwise seems random or frightening. The Republican voter saw, for example, Covid 19 shutdowns and could not comprehend why he was being inconvenienced or that other people were not as outraged as himself at being inconvenienced. The official explanation (IE Because we don't want people to get sick and die because we value the lives of others) was not something he felt or believed anyone else felt. Rather than accept the simplest explanation (IE These people are more humane than myself), he instead decided it must all be some sinister plot, making him feel better about himself.

3: Self-serving lies about being a tough guy and "rugged individualist". Republican culture romanticizes a long-gone, mostly mythical era where there were no laws, where gun owners could simply take whatever they wished or do whatever they wanted as long as they did not recognize the rights of others. The base resent government because, as they see it, without it in the way they could use their guns to set themselves up as warlords or kings. That in such a lawless scenario they would far more likely end up as slaves at best is something their egos won't let them consider.

That's certainly what he does. The emphasis of my questions to you would be how much this is attributable to the rest of the GoP. I would appreciate your answer, especially if it stays on the analytical side more so than on the polemical side, but that's up to you of course.

I believe they are the same. It's really no different from the 90's and 00's, when Republicans pretended to be devout anti-gay, anti-abortion Christians, while getting caught having gay affairs and paying for mistress' abortions so often that "family values" was regarded as a joke long before Trump.

Now they pretend to be very worried about transgendered people existing or Hispanics in America or whatever the culture war issue is today, and I believe they are equally as insincere as they were back then.

As far as I know there are serious attempts at republican emancipation from 'Trumpism', if I may call it like that. What would you say to that?

All that has resulted from those attempts is ended careers. This quote I read sums it up:

Believe, and ye too shall be entitled to claim (insofar as you acknowledge Trump is the Greatest Ever) that ye are also Great. Dare to gainsay His Majesty? No matter how mighty your deeds or deeply in the service of Trump ye have been, ye shall be reviled & outcast, and renounced as an accursed "lib" or "RINO," who Trump knew not...

[Lord Thesaurian]

Hunter Biden accepting a lesser charge means he admitted to everything and took responsibility of the fact, unlike Trump.

It means the charges were reduced to nothing because his name is Biden, at least, according to whistleblowers in the IRS and DOJ. Trump hasn’t been offered a deal that anyone knows about so idk what your deflection is supposed to refer to.

[Coughdrop addict]

It means the charges were reduced to nothing because his name is Biden, at least, according to whistleblowers in the IRS and DOJ. Trump hasn’t been offered a deal that anyone knows about so idk what your deflection is supposed to refer to.

Just produce a single example of anyone who did the same as Hunter but got a worse deal. I can almost guarantee you will find he is getting it worse.

As for Trump:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ts-settlement/

Even now, if Trump just came to the table and admitted he was wrong, the entire mess would go away. But his narcissism won't allow it. He has no ability to be humble or admit fault.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Even now, if Trump just came to the table and admitted he was wrong, the entire mess would go away. But his narcissism won't allow it. He has no ability to be humble or admit fault.

Source? Your wapo article alleges some lawyer advised Trump to seek a plea deal and he declined, not that one was on the table. Given the night and day difference in response to Trump keeping classified docs at his house vs Biden keeping some at his, it’s no wonder he’s not interested in cooperating with political prosecution.

Just produce a single example of anyone who did the same as Hunter but got a worse deal. I can almost guarantee you will find he is getting it worse.

You think 2 years probation is worse than 10 years in jail? And the latter is just the standard sentence for one of the charges dropped/reclassed to a lesser offense in the plea deal.