Ridley Scott wants to vandalize history again (Napoleon)

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Three body was written by a Chinese person, although in English It is fairly recent too.
More interestingly, netflix also has adapted it, but the chinese industry managed to present its own version first - and it's likely the chinese version is better (netflix one hasn't aired yet).

Wikipedia tells me that a man from Beijing wrote that novel. I mean if they can already make their own credible science fiction IPs then they don't really need us anymore.

Although Chinese people really don't care for a lot of American properties. They didn't even really like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon which they complained had too much exposition and not enough action scenes. To be fair that was by design since Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was mostly intended for a Western audience.

Even a lot of the hype for things like Warcraft, Transformers, or Marvel has died down, some of which were successful in China. The only Western IP that has a large following in China is actually Star Trek. Apparently Western Sci Fi and Fantasy have a niche audience in China. Game of Thrones was kind of popular in China though.

But I suppose they already have that since they could just watch Three Kingdoms, or Legend of Chu and Han. If they wanted action they have a huge amount of films ranging from Ip Man to Water Margin. Honestly it kind of seemed like the West was trying to copy their action trends in the past 20 years (by importing Jackie Chan, John Woo, Zhang Yimou, Ang Lee, Daniel Wu).

I mean a lot of that was specifically the influence of Hong Kong cinema but China has overtaken Eastern cinema in importance, in general I mean. I think at this point it is just China, South Korea, and occasionally India. But China is still the largest. Japanese cinema kind of died in the 1990's or early 2000's. After that they were relying on anime, but they can't even make 2D cartoons anymore. Even outsourcing to South Korea is apparently too expensive for them.

Definitely though I recommend 2010 Three Kingdoms the most. It broke new ground because it deviated from the largely fictional Romance of Three Kingdoms, and started incorporating elements from the Cao Man Zhuan (which is an unreliable text that seeks to tarnish Cao Cao's reputation but accidentally turns him into a badass), and the historically accurate scholarly work Records of Three Kingdoms.

So Cao Cao is not the villain this time around, although most of the rival factions aren't really evil. The 2010 adaptation of Three Kingdoms also seems to have invented the formula for the current historical dramas which China has been making in the past decade. While simultaneously increasing the obsession that East Asia has with the Three Kingdoms. Now there are a whole bunch of Three Kingdoms shows.

Anyway if you do watch Three Kingdoms and come out supporting ass Liu Bei and his milk toast Confucianist third Han Dynasty instead of Cao Cao, aka Cao Mengde, aka the Vastly Martial Emperor, aka the Grand Ancestor, then I hope you get killed in the Red Wedding.

But that being said if you plan to watch more of them then I suppose you could start with Legend of Chu and Han as basically the prequel. As that was made by the same studio using some of the same actors. In Three Kingdoms they constantly make references to historical figures in the past.

Maybe if you start with Legend of Chu and Han then you will get some of those references. Or perhaps start with Qin Dynasty Epic, not the same studio but Qin Shi Huangdi was around about less than a decade before Liu Bang started his peasant uprising.

[Kyriakos]

I have watched a few episodes of the Three Kingdoms, but I can't stand the single combat scenes ^^

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I have watched a few episodes of the Three Kingdoms, but I can't stand the single combat scenes

You must have gotten to the part where Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei duel Lu Bu. Funny thing actually, that never happened in real life but it is a major moment in Romance of Three Kingdoms.

The fights are meant to display that the characters are incredibly strong and can do just about anything because they are super human. In Romance of Three Kingdoms Lu Bu is considered the strongest warrior alive, possibly the strongest of all time. While Guan Yu is literally considered a god.

These over the top feats are characteristic of East Asian literature and mythology. Such as in Journey to the West, or Water Margin, or heck even Dragon Ball Z. It honestly isn't any different from the Iliad, or Gilgamesh, or King Arthur. It isn't meant to be realistic because Romance of Three Kingdoms, despite being historical fiction, is not realistic and even contains a lot of deviations from historical fact.

But while in the actual ancient novel there are multiple fights, I think this show only has like two or three. The best one was not Lu Bu vs Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei in my opinion but actually Ma Chao vs Xu Chu. Since they always go on about how great Guan Yu, or Zhao Yun, or Lu Bu are, but in this latter fight Xu Chu was as capable as Ma Chao.

In Romance of Three Kingdoms the protagonist is Liu Bei and the antagonist is Cao Cao. So they tend to ignore the great feats of Cao Cao and his army. It is great to see the strongman Xu Chu do something for a change.

However there were many other great warriors on Cao Cao's side including Xiahou Dun who was probably as strong as Guan Yu, as well Xiahou Yuan (with his bow), and Zhang Liao who was said to be comparable to Lu Bu.

Still I think they could have given us more by showing Dian Wei and his incredible feat of holding off an entire army, or actually putting Zhang Liao on screen. Although around the half way point they do give us something when Xu Huang and his army manages to defeat Guan Yu's army.

Anyway battles and fights are mostly filler to appease the fans and to give context. But Three Kingdoms being military fiction the main part of it are the wars being waged through military and political strategy. The schemes are straight forward and not overly complex nonsense.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I just remembered that Ian Holm (Bilbo Baggins) played Napoleon in like three separate films ("Time Bandits", "Napoleon and Love", "The Emperor's New Clothes").

He did okay I guess. Not really Napoleon as much as he ended up portraying a sort of Napoleon caricature. I assume this is what some people think Napoleon was.

[Kyriakos]

If Russell -Tugger- Crowe can play a mathematician, I suppose JP can play Napoleon.
But not well

[Roma_Victrix]

I just remembered that Ian Holm (Bilbo Baggins) played Napoleon in like three separate films ("Time Bandits", "Napoleon and Love", "The Emperor's New Clothes").

He did okay I guess. Not really Napoleon as much as he ended up portraying a sort of Napoleon caricature. I assume this is what some people think Napoleon was.

Random! I totally didn't know he played Napoleon at all, let alone three times. I'll have to check that out I guess. Thanks for the references.

If Russell -Tugger- Crowe can play a mathematician, I suppose JP can play Napoleon.
But not well

Russell Crowe: "OMG, IT'S RUSSEL CROWE! I'VE NEVER SEEN A MATHEMATICIAN BEFORE! Oi! Why don't you choke on some pig vomit, you scrotum! And then flush yourself down a toilet, you testicle!"
[Punches offending tourist in the face.]

Come to think of it, I would totally watch Russell Crowe play Napoleon and just win every battle, including Waterloo, by simply punching the lights out of British officers who mildly insult him after crossing paths with him.

You must have gotten to the part where Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei duel Lu Bu. Funny thing actually, that never happened in real life but it is a major moment in Romance of Three Kingdoms.

The fights are meant to display that the characters are incredibly strong and can do just about anything because they are super human. In Romance of Three Kingdoms Lu Bu is considered the strongest warrior alive, possibly the strongest of all time. While Guan Yu is literally considered a god.

These over the top feats are characteristic of East Asian literature and mythology.

I know that's a trope they love to repeat, but it was somewhat annoying when John Woo even nodded to this in Red Cliff, which was otherwise a serious historical drama and action film. Obviously it included gross inaccuracies like nascent gunpowder technology being available at one point (in the early 3rd century AD rather than the 10th/11th during Northern Song), but it at least attempted to portray itself as a somewhat realistic war movie. The single combat duel stuff really detracts from that, even if it is popular among fans in East Asia. Then again Woo is rather over the top with fight scenes even when there isn't a historical East Asian setting. I mean, just look at the good guys and bad guys fighting each other in Broken Arrow and Face/Off.

[Kyriakos]

I think that Crowe's brain has been down under the water for way too long to play in anything of importance again

[Kyriakos]

If it wasn't for the height (he is 1.83), Mads Mikkelsen might have worked too.
Only good thing with JP in this role is that his height is suited (1.73)

[Cyclops]

So IRL Napoleon was a lively and extremely charming person, even in his older years. The Poms literally quarantined him like a guy with the zombie virus and chose gaolers who were the bitterest most horrible people so he couldn't work his "Simon the Likeable" charm on them.

In 1970 Rod Steiger played Napoleon like a sullen doom laden Soviet general vs Plummer's James Bondesque charming Wellesley, a horrible mangling of their characters.

Phoenix is an extremely skilled actor and a lot of his performances have been deeply affecting: a mate of mine with depression said his Joker was pretty spot on, and as good a representation of mental illness as Lars Von Trier's Melancholia. It seems a bizarre choice, but the memes potential is high:



You know the little song and dance guy from Hamilton would be better, charming pushy little schmuck you can't help but like, and a bit of an outsider.

Ridley Scott is a superb film maker but we're not going for accuracy here clearly. Superb stylist, Alein, Blade runner, OK his great films are 40+ years old but still a great director.

Maybe the battles will be decent? Some of his wide scale shots looked nice in Gladiator, he might do something nice here.

[Kyriakos]

There is also this:



Half Fabio, half Gestapio.

[conon394]

Some of his wide scale shots looked nice in Gladiator, he might do something nice here.

Yes but than he betrayed with roman army mud mosh pit... Is there nobody in hollywood who can understand that if you are fighting like that you have already lost. Also the scale of wounded and dead Scott has Maximums say would be a Roman army in route an would be saying while they were running away (the nearest Roman battle that sort of seems like the one Scott had in mind is maybe Idistaviso - and in victory Germanicus had no such losses). Does not bode well for my feeling about other battles that depended on liner tactics.

Edit not to mention the flaming arrows and the 81mm mortars err catapults.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

There is also this:



Half Fabio, half Gestapio.

I don't really see it but I'm open to it. Obviously he can't really play Napoleon like he did the villains in Harry Potter and the Patriot. But if he gave it his all he might give us something decent.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I know that's a trope they love to repeat, but it was somewhat annoying when John Woo even nodded to this in Red Cliff, which was otherwise a serious historical drama and action film. Obviously it included gross inaccuracies like nascent gunpowder technology being available at one point (in the early 3rd century AD rather than the 10th/11th during Northern Song), but it at least attempted to portray itself as a somewhat realistic war movie. The single combat duel stuff really detracts from that, even if it is popular among fans in East Asia. Then again Woo is rather over the top with fight scenes even when there isn't a historical East Asian setting. I mean, just look at the good guys and bad guys fighting each other in Broken Arrow and Face/Off.

Red Cliff is kind of this overly dramatic action movie but set in a war, that is meant to be at the end of the Han Dynasty, but uses the traditional aesthetic of the Tang and Song Dynasties that is often associated with Three Kingdoms fiction and Chinese historical epics in general. That is because most of these epics were written during the Yuan and Ming Dynasties.

The actual film is okay. But it doesn't deviate from the traditional narrative much. Liu Bei and Sun Quan have to overcome their differences to fight Cao Cao. Zhuge Liang is still a stoic super genius. Cao Cao man bad. They defeat Cao Cao in an epic battle at Redcliff.

They even used some of the typical tropes like Cao Cao wants to steal Zhou Yu's wife, Cao Cao has an inflated ego and considers himself a hero but is actually a super immoral villain, Zhuge Liang steals arrows by using decoy barges, Zhuge Liang debates the Wu scholars and bureaucrats, etc etc.

Those elements from the ROTK epic are fictional. But the movie also makes up some fiction of its own inexplicably. The most obvious example being the subplot with Sun Quan's sister. While obviously the action scenes are way overexaggerated, including some of the weird nonsensical battle formations.

[Pinarius]

By looking at the long cast list, there seems to be ships involved, too: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1328784...?ref_=tt_cl_sm

[Roma_Victrix]

Red Cliff is kind of this overly dramatic action movie but set in a war, that is meant to be at the end of the Han Dynasty, but uses the traditional aesthetic of the Tang and Song Dynasties that is often associated with Three Kingdoms fiction and Chinese historical epics in general. That is because most of these epics were written during the Yuan and Ming Dynasties.

The actual film is okay. But it doesn't deviate from the traditional narrative much. Liu Bei and Sun Quan have to overcome their differences to fight Cao Cao. Zhuge Liang is still a stoic super genius. Cao Cao man bad. They defeat Cao Cao in an epic battle at Redcliff.

They even used some of the typical tropes like Cao Cao wants to steal Zhou Yu's wife, Cao Cao has an inflated ego and considers himself a hero but is actually a super immoral villain, Zhuge Liang steals arrows by using decoy barges, Zhuge Liang debates the Wu scholars and bureaucrats, etc etc.

Those elements from the ROTK epic are fictional. But the movie also makes up some fiction of its own inexplicably. The most obvious example being the subplot with Sun Quan's sister. While obviously the action scenes are way overexaggerated, including some of the weird nonsensical battle formations.

Fair enough, people in East Asia want to see the fictionalized Romance of the Three Kingdoms version of history, I get that. I just wish someone would make purely historical versions of the same films. Anyway, FINE, you big jerk, you've convinced me, Oda: we'll just let John Woo script and direct the new Napoleon movie instead of Ridley Scott.

Just imagine it for a moment, a John Woo version.
Certainly more tolerable than a Quentin Tarantino take on Napoleon (with half the movie chewed up by a bunch of edgy dialogue while Napoleon is riding in a carriage with French whores or something and some Guido nagging him for abandoning his Italic Corsican roots to join up with those frogs in France).

[conon394]

Certainly more tolerable than a Quentin Tarantino take on Napoleon

What do we get to see Wellington march back in forth in front a line of Riflemen saying each of you owes me an Eagle and 100 garlic (insert something that will get emoji censored) stinking frog scalps?

[swabian]

There is also this:

Works well, methinks. I saw him in The Patriot where he plays a cold hearted British officer. I can easily imagine him in the role of Napoleon. The facial structure isn't too far off and he has the voice and charisma to bring Napoleon to life, no doubt. The size is a bit of a problem, but a phone call to Peter Jackson and we got that covered.

Half Fabio, half Gestapio.

Yeah, bright blue eyes are super nazi

He is Jewish btw.

Ridley Scott is one of the better vandals so there is reason for hope. Of course there will be a female counterpart who is better in every way but steps back to let the lttle guy vent his male ego. We'll see. I really like the early Ridely Scott, the Alien series was and still is undervalued in my opinon. Unfortunately old age and the zeitgeist has worked on the good man. Oh well... No reason to completely discard it for me.

[Roma_Victrix]

Yeah, bright blue eyes are super nazi

He is Jewish btw.

For that matter, Fabio Lanzoni has super blue eyes like a stereotypical German, but that's not uncommon in northern Italy where he's from (Milan).

Maybe Fabio should be cast as Napoleon at this point since the latter was Italic Corsican, not a real ethnic Frenchman, just for the giggles, so long as Ridley Scott is hamming it up anyway with a silly plot about Bonaparte's wife.

[Kyriakos]

Fabio should be in this movie regardless

[Roma_Victrix]

Fabio should be in this movie regardless

Ridley Scott can direct, but Fabio Lanzoni should star, cast, write, produce, and promote the film, and do all the stunts while being in charge of stunt choreography and special effects. Just go hog wild and make it like an Eddie Murphy movie where he plays all the major roles at once.