If a person can be transgendered, shouldn't that mean people can also be "transracial" or "transage"?

[NorthernXY]

F! Lost a long post but:

it can hardly be argued that homo sapiens has for 200k years or more used outward appearance as a proxy for genetics, when genetics was an entirely unknown concept.

This is so wrong I'm dumbfounded how to respond. Animal husbandry is over 10,000 years old. Just because we didn't know what DNA is doesn't mean we didn't noticed traits can be inherited and that some traits are better than others, typically labeling them as healthy.

[Kyriakos]

I don't mind people being trans or identifying as whatever. But with current tech, it's very difficult (even with tons of money) to actually look like the non-bio gender.
In the future I suspect it will be far easier, at which point it'll also become more common.

As for being "transracial", is there that big of a market for that? In the US bubble people think that there is only white vs black, but (eg) east asians regard themselves "superior" to "whites" anyway.

[alhoon]

As for being "transracial", is there that big of a market for that? In the US bubble people think that there is only white vs black, but (eg) east asians regard themselves "superior" to "whites" anyway.

Not true. In South Korea for example, locals pay good money to do plastic surgery so their eyes appear more like the ones of white people - even at the cost of their tear ducts- or buy special soap to make their skin appear more white etc. In China, there are legitimate business positions for white people to simply come and sit in a meeting without talking so that they will add "credit" to the business that they represent, because other Chinese are more trusting and more likely to do business with a company that employs white people.

Thus, it is actually more accurate to say that some East Asians unfortunately see the white people as superior to themselves in some regards (beauty standards / expectations of wealth and gravitas at least), puzzling as it is. And before we start blaming Hollywood's beauty standards, those Chinese that hire white people to bring their whiteness to elevate the meeting didn't have exposure to much of Hollywood when growing up.

But to return to the topic of the thread, I think those East Asians that do plastic surgery to change their appearance to conform more to white people's appearance could be considered "transracial" in a way.

[Muizer]

This is so wrong I'm dumbfounded how to respond. Animal husbandry is over 10,000 years old. Just because we didn't know what DNA is doesn't mean we didn't noticed traits can be inherited and that some traits are better than others, typically labeling them as healthy.

That is questionable, but beside the point I was trying to make. There are people who make the claim that gender is the scientifically determined biological sex, leading to such claims as "a man cannot become a woman by transitioning". My point is that the whole appeal to science (biological sex) is misplaced, because that never was the criterion until relatively recently in human history. Nobody took outward sex characteristics as a proxy for anything. It was its own thing. Your gender was whatever your outward appearance said it was. If we could have a time machine and send a transitioned person back a 1000 years, they would be recognized exclusively as their 'new' gender. Perhaps not perfect in every sense, but nonetheless ....

[Axland]

I saw an short street interview where a man went around and asked if people can be transgendered. Most were young white people that said "yes" and something about genetics. He interviews then asked, "If you person can be transgender, can people be transracial (not talking about parent of different races)? Lot's of them immediately walked away because they painted themselves into a corner. I add on to that, if people can be transgendered, can people be transaged?

Neal deGrasse Tyson, an astrophysicist, not a biologist, biochemist, or any type of social "science", said gender is a spectrum and it changes. "One day I may wake up and feel I'm 80% female and 20% male, then the next day I could be 80% male and 20% female." As a celebrated scientist, he even gets that wrong. Male and female refer to your genetics, man and woman refer to gender (how you feel). Science doesn't give a F about how you feel.

https://twitter.com/ChoooCole/status...ign%3Dmsn_feed

Sorry, don't know how to put X/Twitter videos in posts.

Essentially he destroys his own argument. If a person's percentage of gender can change from day to day, then it's stands to reason gender dysphoria is a psychological problem and not an actual scientific one.


What are your guys' thoughts.

My thought is that biology is important but not a red line to human behavior. The more I know how fluid were the gender roles in past civilizations not related with our european-semitic heritage, the more I'm convinced that our views are biased.

A white visitor to one tribe of the powerful Iroquais Confederacy was shocked to see one of their chiefs being a woman, this woman had four wives and the rest of the tribe seemed to not care about that. This is only a tiny sample of a much wider phenomena.

Our problem, as a white European culture, is that we unconsciously believe that the success of our model validates our points of view. When clearly we can attribute the success to specific traits like the massive use of science.

[Axland]

That is questionable, but beside the point I was trying to make. There are people who make the claim that gender is the scientifically determined biological sex, leading to such claims as "a man cannot become a woman by transitioning". My point is that the whole appeal to science (biological sex) is misplaced, because that never was the criterion until relatively recently in human history. Nobody took outward sex characteristics as a proxy for anything. It was its own thing. Your gender was whatever your outward appearance said it was. If we could have a time machine and send a transitioned person back a 1000 years, they would be recognized exclusively as their 'new' gender. Perhaps not perfect in every sense, but nonetheless ....

Well, that's really not the case for every past civilization. As I explained several cultures accepted the transgender roles before science could do anything about that. So in one hand we can see that transgender behavior is more common than we thought and in the other the perception of transgender individuals was different depending on their culture background. You have several examples of how non semitic cultures adopted the prevalent point of view of roles in contact with European culture. Mainly because the material superiority of European powers transferred some of these points of view. As an example Japanese samurai warriors had frequent relations with young males (wakashu), but the influence of European culture erased this behavior because was viewed as not proper for a manly person.

[paleologos]

My take on this:

Some people were dealt "lemons" in life and they don't want to feel "inferior" to the people they perceive as having been dealt "peaches".
So instead of making some bloody "lemonade", or even "limoncello" - lemons are fine really - they want us all to say that the lemons can become peaches.

And some of us go along with it because we don't want to be seen as uncompassionate.
And by doing so we aggrandize the people that should least be aggrandized.

As far as I am concerned and in the spirit of generosity I will not say there are only two categories of people.
I will instead say there are three categories of people:
Male/Men, Female/Women and those who don't like the card they've been dealt.

Now I will not go out of my way to remind people that they've been dealt a card they find unsavory.
But I draw the line when demands begin to be landed that I somehow I owe people courses of palliative gaslighting.

[mishkin]

paleologos, you can say that you only believe that there are two sexes and two genders, it is the position held by the vast majority of the current population. You are not, at all, a victim in any of this.

I must be scum for not having accepted the cards that were dealt to me and for having had myopia surgery. My apologies to everyone affected by this. I will also stop trying to reinforce my virile image by doing push-ups. I also promise that I will talk more about Benzema and less about Wong Kar Wai. (Some consider my fixation with the director somewhat effeminate/confusing).

[paleologos]

paleologos, you can say that you only believe that there are two sexes and two genders

This does not reflect the point that I was making.
Nor does it mean anything, since anybody can say anything.
We exercise discretion in choosing whom to take seriously.

...it is the position held by the vast majority of the current population.

What the many believe is never an argument, if it is used as an argument it becomes a logical fallacy.

You are not, at all, a victim in any of this.

This is the only part of your post where you and I have the same facts.
It is also true for everybody else.

Which means that wrong begins to be inflicted upon me the moment certain self appointed arbiters of altruism decide to make themselves the pimps of my compassion and attempt to dictate how I should provide palliative gaslighting to those whose ego needs pampering.

I must be scum for not having accepted the cards that were dealt to me and for having had myopia surgery.

Sarcasm is not an argument either.
And for those who are planning to resort to the alternative of sarcasm, neither is scoffing.

My apologies to everyone affected by this.

Sarcastic apologies not accepted.

I will also stop trying to reinforce my virile image by doing push-ups.

We don't see your pecks here, only your posts.
Which means your pecks are for you.
But your posts are addressed to us.
Or maybe at us.

I also promise that I will talk more about Benzema and less about Wong Kar Wai. (Some consider my fixation with the director somewhat effeminate/confusing).

What?



May I remind everyone that at no point are we going to vote on what position the TWC community, as a whole, will hold in the issues addressed in this thread.
It is not disagreeable to disagree with me.
It is disagreeable to not use the wit everyone has proven they have in a way that is challenging to my understanding of what is happening.

And my understanding of what is happening is that a certain intellectual elite have decided to pontificate that:

• "Gender is arbitrarily fluid."
  
• "Sex can be altered with a medical procedure."
  
• "Only they, the self appointed intellectual elite may decide which characteristic is fluid and which characteristic is immutable."
  
• "Contesters of these dictations are punishable, even extrajudicialy."
  
• "Punishment may include but not be limited to sacking, debanking, deplatforming, demonetization, removal from SM, registration as perpetrators of "non crime hate incidents", e.t.c."
  

Well, people I am a contester.
I believe it is my right to contest such attempts to dictate what the truth is.
And I believe that people who have been punished for contesting attempts to dictate the truth are victims of an emerging totalitarianism.
And they are the ones who most deserve and need not just our sympathy but our activism as well.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[alhoon]

@Paleologos is right, @Mishkin is wrong. @Axland has a point. I disagree with the conclusion but that is a post structured to debate, not contradict or show how woke that person is.

[mishkin]

alhoon, paleologos:

- The majority of the scientific/academic community agrees regarding the phenomena of transsexuality and the gender spectrum.
- You are not victims for having other ideas, respectable as long as they do not harm anyone (they are usually harmful, insulting/derogatory opinions).
- Open a thread to expose your paranoias about the elites and the woke society.

[paleologos]

Would you like to modify the post above so that it has an argument?

[mishkin]

No, I want you to explain in detail your arguments about the emerging woke totalitarianism that is silencing the voices of all those free thinkers in pubs and bars all over the world.

Do you think that in fifty years they will make biopics about these heroic geniuses who, risking everything and suffering enormously, opposed the madness of transsexuality and the disappearance of two marked genres that were about to end our society? (I know you don't like sarcasm, sorry, I'm not sorry.).

[paleologos]

I did not state that as an argument but as a part of actual reality and worse, a trend of it getting worse.
I wonder how many examples would be enough for you.

• There is the driving out of academia of such people as Bret Weinstein and Jordan Peterson.
• Speaking of Jordan Peterson, there is the Canadian Bill C-16.
• There is the British College of Policing and their Non-crime hate incidents policy that required judicial intervention to be negated (Man complains of 'Orwellian police' after tweet investigation).
• There is the Canadian example of how they treated the strike of their truck drivers and the people who supported them (bank accounts frozen).
• There is the Canadian PM stating that people cannot demonstrate/protest against the government.
• There is the scandalous de-banking of Nigel Farage ...
• ...Which revealed that this was not the first time something like that was happening but it was the first time a bank foolishly attempted to punch above their weight.
• There is the treatment of Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull (Posie Parker).

Also:

• Woman arrested for misgendering a trans person on Twitter charged with trolling.
• Gender-critical feminist charged over allegedly transphobic tweets.
• UK social media arrest.
• UK woman arrested for posting women's rights stickers to counter transgender narrative.
• Woman is charged with malicious communication over 'transphobic' tweet.
• Female Prisoner Says She Was Raped by Transgender Inmate.
• California's Female Prisoners Feel Threatened by Transgender Inmates. The State Doesn't Care.

Also:
Elon Musk Promises To Cover Legal Fees For People Fired Over Tweets.
From the article:

It’s unclear what prompted Musk to make the offer, but it came shortly after a NASCAR driver was suspended for allegedly liking a meme on Instagram mocking George Floyd.

So now you don't have to post anything, even liking the "wrong" post can get you discriminated against.
Who decides which post is "right" and which post is "wrong"?


I did not wake up one morning fearing that the provisions of democracy would be used to initially undermine and ultimately undo democracy.
It was a slow transition, owed to incidents like those I have posted links for.

The links are only for incidents that happened in the Anglo-sphere due to language restrictions.
If people have knowledge of similar incidents in other countries they can post the links too.


P.S.
I can appreciate sarcasm, post all of yours in the 'You Laugh, You Lose Thread thread.
In a debate sarcasm/scoffing hint at a dearth of argument.

[chriscase]

As a man in my fifties, I might wish I still had the muscle tone, figure, skin health, and general vitality I had when I was, say, twenty. I might even use some cosmetics, diet, exercise, and clothing choices that make me look somewhat like I did then, even though I don’t. And I wouldn’t be unusual in this. I think it’s fair to say modern Western society is somewhat trans-age if that’s a way to describe this yearning after one’s youthful looks.

Based on my limited experience, at least the few trans people I know have yearned for something akin to this sense of self-acceptance based on how they feel they are, what the person they are comfortable being is like. The gist of this argument seems to amount to an attempt to draw a line and say, “but you’re not”. And yet that doesn’t really matter when it’s just a question of how someone can simply feel comfortable in their own skin, kind of how some older people feel better when they think they look younger and, therefore, in their mind, more healthy, more vibrant.

Race is a whole other ball of wax but suffice it to say it appears to be an almost entirely social construct that has wrongly been conflated with genetics. Acculturation certainly is a strong component of identity, so in principle it could be a source of conflict. I’d imagine in a culture with multiple (sub-group) societies one could have a strong sense that one ought to belong to a different society than one was born into, but there could be ways to remedy that.

[paleologos]

@chriscase:
The following is not a disputation of the points you are making.
I hope you rather read it as an illumination of the limitations to these points.

As a man in my fifties, I might wish I still had the muscle tone, figure, skin health, and general vitality I had when I was, say, twenty. I might even use some cosmetics, diet, exercise, and clothing choices that make me look somewhat like I did then, even though I don’t. And I wouldn’t be unusual in this. I think it’s fair to say modern Western society is somewhat trans-age if that’s a way to describe this yearning after one’s youthful looks.

That we have the ability to take care of ourselves better so as to age slower biologically than chronologically is true.
What is absurd is a post-menopausal woman demanding victim status -however indirectly- for not receiving the same sexual attention as a 23 year old.

Based on my limited experience, at least the few trans people I know have yearned for something akin to this sense of self-acceptance based on how they feel they are, what the person they are comfortable being is like. The gist of this argument seems to amount to an attempt to draw a line and say, “but you’re not”. And yet that doesn’t really matter when it’s just a question of how someone can simply feel comfortable in their own skin, kind of how some older people feel better when they think they look younger and, therefore, in their mind, more healthy, more vibrant.

Well said, alas some of them yearn more than that.
People who got their musculature growing up as males yearn to receive the champion's perks for winning in women's athletic contests.
Rapists yearn to be incarcerated in women's prisons.
And other people with penises yearn to be allowed to undress in women's locker rooms or use the women's rest rooms.
The problem begins to form because -for some of them- their source of validation is external.
They demand to be validated buy us supplying them with palliative gaslighting.

Race is a whole other ball of wax but suffice it to say it appears to be an almost entirely social construct that has wrongly been conflated with genetics. Acculturation certainly is a strong component of identity, so in principle it could be a source of conflict. I’d imagine in a culture with multiple (sub-group) societies one could have a strong sense that one ought to belong to a different society than one was born into, but there could be ways to remedy that.

Perhaps race is indeed a social construct.
What is undeniably a social construct is the concept that being categorized as a member of one race should confer to you the status of collective victimhood in social circles where the victim is considered sacrosanct.
That it's almost always super progressive Caucasians who want to be "transraced" as African-descended people, never the other way round, should speak volumes to us.

[chriscase]

I fear a certain amount of these stories you are bringing to the table sound like cherry-picking to stoke fear. Granted I get the militancy evident on the internet and no doubt on college campuses. Frankly I think we all need to calm down about things like this and have some sympathy for the people who are actually caught in the middle.

[paleologos]

This is not data collection for scientific research.
I don't believe you are using the phrase "cherry-picking" in an appropriate context.
I mean, what are the "cherries" I didn't pick, the ones that prove there are no such people who would attempt to exclude you on the basis of your conservatism?

[chriscase]

I’m using the term - as I believe it’s commonly used - to describe a non-representative selection of events that gives a misleading impression or supports a dubious thesis.

I present what I think is a pretty reasonable scenario - a person who feels more comfortable in an envelope of gender that happens to be different than what was assigned at birth. You counter with a story about a male rapist posing as trans in order to gain access to female victims. Which scenario do you think is typical of transgender people? The case you describe doesn’t even qualify as far as I can tell, but it’s certainly designed to provoke violent reactions from a target audience.

Certainly there are always those who would like to silence dissent. It’s important that they not succeed.

[paleologos]

I think if you read the posts above the one that you find objectionable you will find that it was pertinent to a question by mishkin in post #53.
But if you really want to get the gist of the dispute between me and mishkin you are going to have to start reading from post #47.
You may not be convinced but you will get the chain of posts that led to me posting instances of persecution, unfair treatment, and callous dismissal of the concerns of people who are not "protection worthy".