Hamas attacks southern Israel

[PointOfViewGun]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/...rch%202024.pdf

Most Palestinians support Hamas over the PA, the nominal state government of “Palestine,” by orders of magnitude. 59% in prefer that Hamas remain in control of Gaza indefinitely, only 13% want the PA to return. 64% believe Hamas will defeat Israel militarily, and 73% oppose organizing a coalition of Arab peacekeeping forces under the PA to control Gaza after the war.

71% support Hamas’ decision to launch the 10/7 attacks, 81% of those who have seen footage of the atrocities Hamas proudly recorded that day do not consider them problematic, and 72% are satisfied with Hamas’ performance since then.

If an election were held, 63% of Palestinians say they would back militant jihadist candidates, including the political leader of Hamas. Only 8% would vote for Abbas. 71% want Abbas to resign from office altogether.

Palestinians support intifada over negotiated peace and political resistance by a 2 to 1 margin. 63% oppose peace negotiations with the goal of a two state solution. 52% oppose a two state solution altogether, and 61% believe it is not even a realistic proposal.

The plain fact of the matter is most Palestinians support Hamas, support intifada and hate the PA. Only in the minds of delusional westerners is a magic two state solution with equal rights for everyone headed by the PA a relevant concept.

I have mentioned before how silly it is for western liberals and leftists to parade around with the flag of the despised PA demanding solutions that have already been rejected by the people they claim to advocate for. But it is even more ridiculous to see the mental gymnastics on display throughout, attempting to portray Hamas as some rogue fringe anomaly that no one actually supports and has no agency in the conflict. Palestinians support Hamas and the 10/7 attacks. Most western leftist protesters wreaking havoc in the streets support Hamas and the 10/7 attacks. And because of that support, Palestinians hold out hope for final military victory over the hated Jew, sure to be vanquished by the heroic holy warriors of Hamas.

If people clutching pearls over anything the IDF is responsible for really want to end the war and stop the suffering, they would get tf out of the way and stop trying to prevent the IDF from finishing the job. Until then, Palestinians will continue to support intifada and oppose political negotiations, because they feel supported at home and abroad, and therefore they will continue to serve as meat shields for their jihadist heroes in a conflict that has no end in sight.

Basically, we should ignore consistent data on Gazan majority preferring Palestinian Authority administration over Hamas in favour of "data" collected under wartime conditions. This is what we call lying through statistics.

New Poll Shows Gazans Pragmatic Now, But Not Long-Term:

Also notable is that Gazans continue to express disapproval of Hamas’ policies towards Israel. About half (53%) agree at least somewhat that “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders,” a percentage that has held steady over the last three years. 59% of Gazans also agree that Hamas should give up its armed units in favor of PA officers in Gaza. Likewise, nearly two-thirds of Gazans would agree at least somewhat with the need for Hamas to preserve the cease-fire in both Gaza and the West Bank.

[Muizer]

Reread the beginning of this discussion. We all condemned the terrorist acts of October 7. Do we have to head each post denouncing the current barbarity that is the invasion of Gaza with a condemnation of the murders of civilians on October 7?

Reread my answer to PoVG who made the exact same observation a few posts back.

They have been a political party and government fully accepted (to say the least) by Israel until very recently. They are not a regime, they are not the elected government of the Palestinian people unless you go back eighteen years ago. They are not a regime, they do not represent a state, the Hamas militias are not the army of Palestine.

You're confusing legitimacy with power.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Basically, we should ignore consistent data on Gazan majority preferring Palestinian Authority administration over Hamas in favour of "data" collected under wartime conditions. This is what we call lying through statistics.

In early 2021, half of Palestinians wanted to dissolve the PA altogether, 58% opposed a two state solution, 61% said it was not feasible, 60% supported a return to intifada. If an election were held in 2021, 59% said they would vote for Hamas’ Ismael Haniyeh, 27% for the PA’s Abbas. This is similar to the 2023 and 2024 data in my last post. It’s silly to call this relative consistency a wartime anomaly based on an article and poll that don’t contradict it in the first place. Lying through statistics might be a generous way to put it.

In 2021, Fatah Tanzim’s Barghouti was an electoral favorite over Haniyeh by about 10 points, and was equally favored to replace Abbas in a hypothetical matchup. In 2024, support for Barghouti has grown to a 20 point lead over Haniyeh, and 40 points over Abbas. The most we can glean from the screenshot you posted is a sense that many Palestinians consistently prefer the leader of the first and second intifadas over the current one.

The Washington Institute article you posted from 2022 reflects rather than rebuts the trend I cited.

When asked about the top Palestinian national priority in the next five years, the majority (55%) still rate reclaiming “all of historic Palestine, from the river to the sea” over other options, such as prioritizing a two-state solution. Only about a third (37%) of Gazans say they would accept the “principle of two states for two peoples,” even if it was the last step towards ending the occupation.

A similar percentage of Gazans (58%) likewise continue to assert that the conflict with Israel should not end even if a two-state is achieved and should continue until all of historic Palestine is liberated. An even higher majority (73%) agree at least somewhat with the assertion that any compromise with Israel should be temporary until the restoration of historic Palestine, a number that has remained almost the same over the past three years.

Looking further ahead, Gazans' attitudes toward the conflict remain maximalist. 46% of Gazans believe that the “Palestinians will control almost all of Palestine, because God is on their side,” a number that has not changed a great deal in the last three years.

Because of the attacks on 10/7 and the simultaneous involvement of Iran, Hezbollah and the Houthis, the IDF no longer has escalation dominance and cannot afford to rely on deterrence to maintain a ceasefire. That means a permanent ceasefire is not possible unless the IDF can convince Hamas they are defeated. The latter are unlikely to concede defeat while enjoying the support of the majority of Palestinians and powerful interests in the west and throughout the Muslim world. Iran is the winner here by far, and Israel has a long, grinding road ahead to any return to normal.

[PointOfViewGun]

In early 2021, half of Palestinians wanted to dissolve the PA altogether, 58% opposed a two state solution, 61% said it was not feasible, 60% supported a return to intifada. If an election were held in 2021, 59% said they would vote for Hamas’ Ismael Haniyeh, 27% for the PA’s Abbas. This is similar to the 2023 and 2024 data in my last post. It’s silly to call this relative consistency a wartime anomaly based on an article and poll that don’t contradict it in the first place. Lying through statistics might be a generous way to put it.

In 2021, Fatah Tanzim’s Barghouti was an electoral favorite over Haniyeh by about 10 points, and was equally favored to replace Abbas in a hypothetical matchup. In 2024, support for Barghouti has grown to a 20 point lead over Haniyeh, and 40 points over Abbas. The most we can glean from the screenshot you posted is a sense that many Palestinians consistently prefer the leader of the first and second intifadas over the current one.

I don't know what poll you're referring to in using those numbers. Given that both in 2020 and 2022 Gazans wanted PA to take over instead of being governed by Hamas by 62% and 59% respectively its highly unlikely your numbers carry any weight. You tried to show that Hamas enjoyed majority support in Gaza in order to make Gazan civilians culpable for Hamas' every action. Polling data conducted before the most recent flare in fighting directly contradicts what you tried to argue. The real lesson to learn is that support for Hamas is tied to Israeli brutality. It is no coincidence that opposition to Hamas decreases relatively, but never falling below 50%, in years of increased Israeli strikes on Gaza.

The Washington Institute article you posted from 2022 reflects rather than rebuts the trend I cited.

Because of the attacks on 10/7 and the simultaneous involvement of Iran, Hezbollah and the Houthis, the IDF no longer has escalation dominance and cannot afford to rely on deterrence to maintain a ceasefire. That means a permanent ceasefire is not possible unless the IDF can convince Hamas they are defeated. The latter are unlikely to concede defeat while enjoying the support of the majority of Palestinians and powerful interests in the west and throughout the Muslim world. Iran is the winner here by far, and Israel has a long, grinding road ahead to any return to normal.

That's more of a wishful thinking than one based on reality. The right in USA has the tendency to blow up the role of Iran connected to any conflict.

Initial US intelligence suggests Iran was surprised by the Hamas attack on Israel

The United States has collected specific intelligence that suggests senior Iranian government officials were caught by surprise by Saturday’s bloody attack on Israel by Hamas, according to multiple sources familiar with the intelligence.
The existence of the intelligence has cast doubt on the idea that Iran was directly involved in the planning, resourcing or approving of the operation, sources said.

Netanyahu's support for Hamas and Israeli army's apparent complicity in letting the attack materialize played a much bigger role than anything we know Iran did.

[Lord Thesaurian]

I don't know what poll you're referring to in using those numbers.

I’m referring to the ones I cited, corroborated by the article you posted.

Given that both in 2020 and 2022 Gazans wanted PA to take over instead of being governed by Hamas by 62% and 59% respectively its highly unlikely your numbers carry any weight.

On the contrary, it’s highly unlikely the one screenshot you provided suggesting anything of the sort countervails the mountain of evidence I have cited. It is also from a different article apart from the one you posted, so I’ve no way of knowing how the methodology fits in with Palestinians’ support for Hamas. The most we can say about your screenshot is Palestinians likely prefer a militant leader more closely affiliated with Fatah, like Barghouti, over Hamas’ Haniyeh.

You tried to show that Hamas enjoyed majority support in Gaza in order to make Gazan civilians culpable for Hamas' every action.

Hamas does have majority support in Gaza, as cited. More importantly, even if Hamas disappeared tomorrow, your own source indicates Palestinians reject a two state solution or a permanent peace with Israel, so the argument that many Palestinians may prefer other jihadist leadership over Hamas is moot.

Polling data conducted before the most recent flare in fighting directly contradicts what you tried to argue.

No it doesn’t.

The real lesson to learn is that support for Hamas is tied to Israeli brutality.

Your own source suggests otherwise. Support for Hamas is tied to consistent Palestinian support for intifada and Hamas’ perceived success in that fight. “(58%) likewise continue to assert that the conflict with Israel should not end even if a two-state is achieved. An even higher majority (73%) agree at least somewhat with the assertion that any compromise with Israel should be temporary.”

That's more of a wishful thinking than one based on reality. The right in USA has the tendency to blow up the role of Iran connected to any conflict.

What I said was the 10/7 attacks and their consequences have been a major victory for Iran. The IRGC claimed 10/7 was orchestrated in retaliation for the assassination of Soleimani, so you’ll have to debate reality with them. We will likely never know the full story.

The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) says the October 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was a retaliatory action for the assassination of Qasem Soleimani.

According to the IRGC-affiliated Fars News Agency, in a press conference held on Wednesday, Ramezan Sharif, the spokesperson for the IRGC said "The Al-Aqsa Storm was one of the retaliations of the Axis of Resistance against the Zionists for the martyrdom of Qasem Soleimani," the man behind Iran's proxy activities across the region.

https://www.iranintl.com/en/202312278189

[Jozam]

Trump vows to deport anyone who protests against Israel's actions in Gaza: https://www.motherjones.com/politics...ollege-deport/

Basically Trump has thrown away any chance that any of the protestors who are angry with Biden might give him a look.

I don't think voting for Trump was ever on the table. The people upset by the genocide in Gaza are mostly former Democrat voters, they don't need to vote for Trump to get him elected, just withhold their vote from Biden, which seems to be the plan so far.

I certainly don’t object to the notion these kids are misinformed/naive in a broader sense. Based on survey data, they get their information on the conflict primarily through social media. At the same time, I believe these protesters mean what they say and do when they openly celebrate and advocate for Hamas by name and for intifada more broadly, engaging in coordinated destructive tactics under the guise of moral activism. These are not generic calls for peace or for withdrawal from the Middle East, but in fact for sustained and organized opposition to my country and our allies. There’s also an abundance of evidence confirming outside funding and coordination by political agents, reported by law enforcement and the press.

These people, be they students or professional agitators, want to be taken seriously. They want their violent threats and intimidation to have an obstructive impact on government and society in pursuit of anti-US and anti-Israel political aims. I am proposing to treat the pro-terrorist majority as they have identified themselves: as violent political “revolutionaries” who are hostile to the US and our allies, fighting “in solidarity” with terrorist groups and foreign adversaries who share their contempt for and struggle against us and our national interests from within.

I'm glad you've taken a break from calling for the U.S. government's overthrow to remind us of the importance of prosecuting and deporting people for sedition.

Yet the liberal establishment hates Americans so much, they would rather import reliable foreign voters and cheaper workers purchased with public funds than use their institutional dominance to score an easy bipartisan win and stop mass migration.

The federal government’s threats against Texans for doing the job the feds refuse to do indicates we are fast approaching the situation described in the Declaration of Independence, wherein a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce us under absolute despotism, underscoring our duty to throw off such government and provide new guards for our future security.

[Lord Thesaurian]

I'm glad you've taken a break from calling for the U.S. government's overthrow to remind us of the importance of prosecuting and deporting people for sedition.

Comparing posts from 2 different threads is an interesting way to accuse me of hypocrisy. I never called for the overthrow of the US government. Per the quote you’ve referenced, I said by facilitating the mass importation of foreigners and punishing Americans for trying to secure the border, the current US government is creating a situation where it exists in direct opposition to the American people, which the Declaration of Independence cited as grounds for overthrowing a government.

In this thread, I addressed the efforts of political elites who have immense direct influence over the US government to coordinate mass unrest, manipulating the electoral process in support of foreign terrorists and in opposition to US government policy. To the extent this situation does constitute grounds for overthrowing a government according to the Declaration of Independence, the latter suggests the political elites in question would hypothetically face a much harsher fate than the legal prosecution I have advocated for. After all, it was the principal author of the Declaration, Thomas Jefferson, who said “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.”

[Ludicus]

Excerpt from an extensive interview with a well-known “antisemite”, Francesca Albanese, UN Special Rapporteur for the Palestinian Territories, author of the report titled Anatomy of a Genocide

'They Don't See Palestinians as Human Beings':

There are two pending pieces of legislation in the U.S. that relate to Israel. Under one, the Antisemitism Awareness Act, the federal government would police campus speech, using the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's narrow definition of antisemitism, which incorrectly equates criticism of Israel with antisemitism and conflates Judaism with Zionism. Another bill would give the Treasury Department broad new powers to revoke the nonprofit status of an organization, 90 days after making the unilateral determination that it supports terrorism. The bill appears targeted at U.S. groups critical of Israel. What do you make of these efforts in the U.S. to curb freedom of speech?

I see two things. First of all, it's astonishing how far against its own values and basic democratic tenets the U.S. is going to go in order to favor Israel. And the second thing is that I hope that the American people understand how much of their rights and freedoms are being sacrificed in the name of defending a foreign country. It's incredible.

How do you think the student protests on U.S. campuses are seen from the outside world?

What is happening on U.S. campuses is reinvigorating the entire world, after South Africa. South Africa gave us hope. And this young generation—I call it the watermelon revolution—also gave us hope, because they asked for justice. They simply asked for justice. There might be an element of agitators among them, and there might be people with a different agenda other than being peaceful. But the majority of them have very clear asks: for divestment of their university, whose fees they pay, from Israel's enterprise; to have transparency; to have a proper education, including about Palestine, which is necessary; and to stop practicing anti-Palestinian racism. This is basically what they are asking, in all its forms. I think it's very moving and inspirational.

Given how close you are to this issue, what do many other people—for example, in Europe or in the U.S., in Washington, in the media—not see about what is happening in Gaza?

They don't see the Palestinians. They don't see the Palestinians as human beings. They don't. They see a mass—faceless, dreamless. They have no idea. They have no idea. This is the thing that troubles me, and it's very painful. There has been a huge deception. I did not realize that there was such a deep, entrenched racism in our societies that prevents us from looking at the Palestinians as ordinary human beings who go to school, who go shopping, who have had their homes—from the birthday cards, to the musical instruments, to wedding pictures, to clothes, everything they had—destroyed. The lives of hundreds of thousands of people have been destroyed. And 17,000 children orphaned. This number is just so shocking.

I talk to people sometimes and they keep on saying, yeah but, what happened on the 7^th of October? First of all, there is no but. And the 7^th of October, I keep on saying, would not have happened had Israel's impunity been put under check before, because it's the hatred that we have seen unleashed against Israeli civilians, which was brutal. It was horrific, there is no question about that. And I will never condone it, of course. I will never justify it, of course. But at the same time, what has spread the hatred is the years of bombing, killing, destroying with impunity. It is the years of jailing the Palestinians in Gaza that has turned some of the people into these individuals full of rage and vengeance.

Ultimately, we have to manage to bring the Palestinians and the Israelis to a place of compassion and mutual understanding. They need to see each other, see their humanity. But again, they are not equal. The Palestinians are the ones who have been subjugated, their rights and freedoms forfeited. The Israelis will have to come to terms with what they have done to the Palestinians. I don't think that they realize it yet. This is probably also the irrational fear in the Israeli war cabinet right now. Whenever the dust settles, then everyone will see.

In fact,you don't even have to accept the classification of genocide to strongly condemn the way in which the Israelis are acting in Gaza, committing all the war crimes, violating all the rules of war law, international law, and the most basic humanity.
What's more, the way in which freedom of opinion is limited in democratic countries, persecuting - that's the right word - all those who speak out against Israel, is absolutely reprehensible.
Hypocritically repeated, what hides the accusation of antisemitism is that for every young person who takes to the streets, shouting against the existence of Israel, there are thousands of people who don't, many of whom are even friends of Israel, but who are outraged by what is happening in Gaza. It's a morally sound attitude, much more respectable than indifference to what Israel is doing in Gaza.
--
Spain bans vessels 'carrying weapons for Israel' from its ports
--
This weekend, the Israel's racist minister Chikli is in Spain, Neo-Nazi Curious and Champions of Israel: Diaspora Minister Chikli Heads to Spain's Far-right Convention Haaretz.

Amichai Chikli, a minister in the Netanyahu government…has joined a series of ultra-right conventions across Europe, is now speaking at a confab in Spain run by a party once shunned by Israel for welcoming neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers into its ranks.

[PointOfViewGun]

I’m referring to the ones I cited, corroborated by the article you posted.

You need to be more specific but I found it. Its the same war-field polling, I see.

On the contrary, it’s highly unlikely the one screenshot you provided suggesting anything of the sort countervails the mountain of evidence I have cited. It is also from a different article apart from the one you posted, so I’ve no way of knowing how the methodology fits in with Palestinians’ support for Hamas. The most we can say about your screenshot is Palestinians likely prefer a militant leader more closely affiliated with Fatah, like Barghouti, over Hamas’ Haniyeh.

You haven't cited a mountain of evidence. You only provided a single poll that was conducted during the current Israeli invasion of Gaza meanwhile trying your best to dismiss a series of polls conducted by the Washington Institute. It wasn't just a screenshot either as you posted an other part of the link I posted the poll graphic with. Distorting what people responded to is not a good argument either. Respondents did not pick an other militant leader over that of Hamas. They picked an organization, Palestinian Authority, that constantly works with Israel. These are very amateurishly deceptive arguments you're relying on.

Hamas does have majority support in Gaza, as cited. More importantly, even if Hamas disappeared tomorrow, your own source indicates Palestinians reject a two state solution or a permanent peace with Israel, so the argument that many Palestinians may prefer other jihadist leadership over Hamas is moot.

Nope. You have no valid data to suggest that Hamas enjoys majority support in Gaza. As I pointed out before, you're trying to use dubious war-field polling to lie through statistics.

No it doesn’t.

Not an argument.

Your own source suggests otherwise. Support for Hamas is tied to consistent Palestinian support for intifada and Hamas’ perceived success in that fight. “(58%) likewise continue to assert that the conflict with Israel should not end even if a two-state is achieved. An even higher majority (73%) agree at least somewhat with the assertion that any compromise with Israel should be temporary.”

Nope. What you argue doesn't even make sense. The trend between those two graphics do not follow each other. The least you would need is correlation. You don't even have that.

What I said was the 10/7 attacks and their consequences have been a major victory for Iran. The IRGC claimed 10/7 was orchestrated in retaliation for the assassination of Soleimani, so you’ll have to debate reality with them. We will likely never know the full story.

You and the Iranians are on the same path obviously.

[Lord Thesaurian]

You need to be more specific but I found it. Its the same

war-field polling, I see.

If you have evidence any source isn’t credible, feel free to present it.

You haven't cited a mountain of evidence. You only provided a single poll that was conducted during the current Israeli invasion of Gaza meanwhile trying your best to dismiss a series of polls conducted by the Washington Institute. It wasn't just a screenshot either as you posted an other part of the link I posted the poll graphic with. Distorting what people responded to is not a good argument either. Respondents did not pick an other militant leader over that of Hamas.

That’s not true and I didn’t dismiss your source. I quoted it.

They picked an organization, Palestinian Authority, that constantly works with Israel. These are very amateurishly deceptive arguments you're relying on.

Palestinians consistently support Barghouti as the preferred leader of the PA and the intifada, and Hamas lobbies for his release from Israeli prison. The dichotomy between the “organizations” you are alleging based on a screenshot is not an indication most Palestinians preferred the PA or peace to Hamas or intifada until 10/7. Some 80% of Palestinians consistently reject the authority of the PA to disarm any other group, so your argument is inaccurate to begin with. Under Abbas’ leadership, the PA has been unpopular relative to Hamas since well before the 10/7 attacks, as cited.

Nope. You have no valid data to suggest that Hamas enjoys majority support in Gaza. As I pointed out before, you're trying to use dubious war-field polling to lie through statistics.

This isn’t true either. Moreover, it’s silly to argue in the first place that Hamas’ popularity with Palestinians because of the October 7 attacks means people don’t actually support Hamas.

Nope. What you argue doesn't even make sense. The trend between those two graphics do not follow each other. The least you would need is correlation. You don't even have that.

If you’re going to argue against a source you referenced, I’ll leave you to it.