Hamas attacks southern Israel

[Muizer]

coming from someone who

Now there's a card you can only play once. After all, it eliminates not just your opponent, but also yourself.

[sumskilz]

I always provide links.

That’s for sure, but I mean you never provide a link to support your allegation. I’m sure you’re thinking of something, having held on to it so dearly for all these years, but I suspect that if we ever get to see it, it’s going to be really anticlimactic. It’s not like I ever thought they were make-believe, like djinn or Turks.

[mishkin]

What is happening in Gaza is barbaric, the only thing that is not clear is its magnitude.

"UN rights chief 'horrified' by mass grave reports at Gaza hospitals"]UN rights chief 'horrified' by mass grave reports at Gaza hospitals (BBC)

The UN's human rights chief has said he is "horrified" by the destruction of Gaza's Nasser and al-Shifa hospitals and the reports of "mass graves" being found at the sites after Israeli raids.

Volker Türk called for independent investigations into the deaths.

Palestinian officials said they had exhumed 283 bodies at Nasser, some with their hands tied. It is not clear how they died or when they were buried.

Israel's military said claims that it buried bodies there were "baseless".

But it did say that during a two-week operation at the hospital in the city of Khan Younis in February, troops "examined" bodies buried by Palestinians "in places where intelligence indicated the possible presence of hostages".

Testimony from a number of released hostages who were held at Nasser hospital places 10 hostages in total there, one of whom remains in captivity.

The head of the UN Human Rights Office for the Palestinian territories also said he did not have "solid evidence" that bodies were found in the graves with their hands tied.

Ajith Sunghay told the BBC that while he had seen some photographs of bodies with hands tied, the evidence did not meet the standard of proof required by the UN and so could not be stated as a fact.

Prior to the Israeli operation at Nasser, staff there had said they had been forced to bury bodies in the hospital's courtyard because nearby fighting prevented access to cemeteries, and videos were posted on social media showing burials taking place there. There were similar reports from al-Shifa before the first Israeli raid on the hospital took place in November.

The Israeli military has said it has raided a number of hospitals in Gaza during the war because Hamas fighters have been operating inside them - a claim Hamas and medical officials have denied.

[Coughdrop addict]

Being a dirty western infidel pig worthy only of a slow death at the hands of the heroic martyrs of Hamas myself, I'm not inclined to take Hamas' word Israel is just mindlessly killing all of the people in Gaza (who totally aren't being forced stay put by Hamas) at face value.

We will soon know who is responsible for these mass graves by how much air time the story gets. If it turns out the mass graves were filled by Israel we will hear about it day in and day out. If it turns out the mass graves were filled by Hamas (who are known to kill anyone attempting to flee), they will never be mentioned again or denied altogether.

On another note, there are at this moment 3112 guests viewing this thread. Even the Russia/Ukraine thread doesn't get that kind of bot traffic.

[mishkin]

Being a dirty western infidel pig worthy only of a slow death at the hands of the heroic martyrs of Hamas myself, I'm not inclined to take Hamas' word Israel is just mindlessly killing all of the people in Gaza (who totally aren't being forced stay put by Hamas) at face value.

We will soon know who is responsible for these mass graves by how much air time the story gets. If it turns out the mass graves were filled by Israel we will hear about it day in and day out. If it turns out the mass graves were filled by Hamas (who are known to kill anyone attempting to flee), they will never be mentioned again or denied altogether.

Could you support some of what you say with serious arguments or facts? What is this about Hamas shooting fleeing Palestinians? Do you have any information that indicates that Hamas may have been responsible for the mass graves?

The one who is expelling the Palestinians from their homes is Israel. Who is bombing Gaza is Israel. If you want to debate again "who started this conflict" or "Hamas doesn't really care about the Palestinian population", go ahead. Israel even bombed refugee camps. the places where it tells palestinians to go, the places where, according to you, Hamas does not allow them to go because the entire population is somehow kidnapped by them.

Btw, Hamas being an organization of heartless terrorists does not mean that Israel cannot also be (as demonstrated daily) a heartless government (to put it very, very mildly).

[sumskilz]

Could you support some of what you say with serious arguments or facts?

The answer was actually in what you quoted, but anyway...

Hamas officials in Gaza claimed on Saturday to discover a mass grave with more than 200 bodies at a hospital in Khan Younis that was recently the target of a military raid.

The officials claimed the dead were buried in a mass grave by Israeli forces, but evidence suggested this claim was false, with the bodies having previously been buried at that same location by Palestinians amid the fighting between Israeli forces and terror operatives in the area.

The Israel Defense Forces on Tuesday rejected Hamas’s allegation as “baseless.”

It said forces searching for Israeli hostages had examined bodies previously buried by Palestinians near Nasser Hospital and had returned the bodies to where they were buried after they were examined.

It has been documented that Palestinians buried their dead at the hospital grounds both before and while Israeli troops operated in the area.

The location of that burial site was geo-located by experts to the same location where Hamas officials claimed to have discovered the new mass grave.

And here is a long X thread with all the evidence.

[mishkin]

I don't click on links that I don't know where they go, I don't use Twitter. I have read the justification that the IDF gives in this regard (in the article that I cited) it seems ridiculous to me to say that these mass graves are Palestinian burials from months ago. By the way, the IDF changing the location of corpses, move them from where their families buried them, is emetic.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

'Source?'
'Here you go:'
'i won't click that.'

??

[sumskilz]

I don't click on links that I don't know where they go, I don't use Twitter. I have read the justification that the IDF gives in this regard (in the article that I cited) it seems ridiculous to me to say that these mass graves are Palestinian burials from months ago.

The BBC article also noted that the hospital staff acknowledged that they buried bodies there. The evidence on Twitter is all geolocations of the videos Palestinians posted of themselves digging the graves.

[mishkin]

In my first post regarding this.

"Prior to the Israeli operation at Nasser, staff there had said they had been forced to bury bodies in the hospital's courtyard because nearby fighting prevented access to cemeteries, and videos were posted on social media showing burials taking place there. There were similar reports from al-Shifa before the first Israeli raid on the hospital took place in November".

The Palestinians trying to bury their dead does not exclude the IDF mass burying its victims.

'Source?'
'Here you go:'
'i won't click that.'

??

I'm not going to waste my time going to some idiot's blog (for example), I prefer to be told in advance where I'm going. I don't plan on going to Twitter ever.

[sumskilz]

The Palestinians trying to bury their dead does not exclude the IDF mass burying its victims.

The videos that Palestinians posted of themselves digging graves there are from late January and early February.

As a matter of policy, the IDF never buries Palestinian bodies, but if you want to imagine something nefarious was going on that needed to be covered up, it would be pretty absurd for the IDF to bury bodies out in the open in the middle of a Palestinian city where there would have been hundreds if not thousands of witnesses with phones. This is the location on Google Maps.

Israel even bombed refugee camps. the places where it tells palestinians to go, the places where, according to you, Hamas does not allow them to go because the entire population is somehow kidnapped by them.

Jabalya is not a refugee camp. It’s a city, the same as any other Arab city, like all the so-called refugee camps in the Palestinian Territories. They got their names because they started as refugee camps in 1948, and I suppose they continue to be called as such for propaganda reasons, your outrage being a case in point. Here it is on Google Maps.

To be clear, I’m not referring to the temporary camps in the safe zones that didn’t exist prior to this recent conflict. These would technically be displaced persons camps.

[mishkin]

Yes, Palestinians have been digging graves for a long time. And yes, it is certainly not the IDF's usual policy to kill women, children or aid workers, but they do it.

"They are not refugee camps because most of them were established more than fifty years ago when we began to expel them from their homes", it is not a great argument. "Absolutely everyone calls them refugee camps for propaganda resons" either.

Edit:

To be clear, I’m not referring to the temporary camps in the safe zones that didn’t exist prior to this recent conflict. These would technically be displaced persons camps.

What would you technically call Rafah and the million refugees it hosts right now? Is it a legitimate objective given the name that Israel gives it?

Israeli strikes in Rafah kill 18, mostly children, Palestinian officials say (CBS)

[sumskilz]

What would you technically call Rafah and the million refugees it hosts right now? Is it a legitimate objective given the name that Israel gives it?

Israeli strikes in Rafah kill 18, mostly children, Palestinian officials say (CBS)

Of course there are legitimate military targets in Rafah, just like there were legitimate military targets in the Nasser hospital. These are exactly the types of places Hamas positions its military assets, precisely because you and millions of others around the world will get upset when Israel strikes them. Maximizing civilian casualties on their own side is a cornerstone of Hamas’s strategy. They even launch rockets into Israel from the safe zones. No place is completely safe in Gaza.

Also, you confused Nasser hospital with al-Shifa when you were thinking there was an operation there in November.

[mishkin]

"Hamas has forced Israel to kill 9,000 women, 14,000 children in Gaza". I am very sorry, but they have undoubtedly lost that "information war". Israel should find some other way to stop being considered the butcher and become the victim again. Some other provocation towards Iran perhaps?

[PointOfViewGun]

Being a dirty western infidel pig worthy only of a slow death at the hands of the heroic martyrs of Hamas myself, I'm not inclined to take Hamas' word Israel is just mindlessly killing all of the people in Gaza (who totally aren't being forced stay put by Hamas) at face value.
We will soon know who is responsible for these mass graves by how much air time the story gets. If it turns out the mass graves were filled by Israel we will hear about it day in and day out. If it turns out the mass graves were filled by Hamas (who are known to kill anyone attempting to flee), they will never be mentioned again or denied altogether.

Only a few numbers we use come from sources with some level of connection to Hamas. Much of the destruction and genocidal rhetoric comes from the Israelis themselves. This is not a conflict we have to rely on Hamas for information.

The answer was actually in what you quoted, but anyway...
And here is a long X thread with all the evidence.

Your source:

This does not exclude that graves could have been added when the hospital was occupied by Israeli forces.

[Ludicus]

Now there's a card you can only play once. After all, it eliminates not just your opponent, but also yourself.

A meaningless statement.
-

I mean you never provide a link to support your allegation.

Very funny. The report of the Report of the Independent Task Force on National the Application of National Security Memorandum-20 to Israel
is not good enough for you? I know the report means nothing to you, or the Israeli government. They even pretend to believe their own lies. When You're the Most Moral Army in the World, Everything is permissable.

Let’s see, what allegation are you talking about, exactly? written by you, a few years ago, “Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens, whereas Palestinians are a hostile population.” (thread “Meet the "Trump peace plan" for the Israel-Palestinian conflict”)
First, the Palestinian citizens of Israel are second class citizens. I don’t recall any Reshid Bey as a leader of the Old-New Land. Second, thinking about it, who was the first Dr. Geyer (“vulture”, in German) in Israel’s story? (1)
Golda Meyer? Don't you agree with what Israel's first president said? “There were no Jews, Arabs or Palestinians in this region. There were Jews and Arabs” ...? of course you agree! In your lexicon, “Palestinians” are unfriendly Arabs, trying to steal from you the land where they were born.

Or are you talking about Israel's ongoing genocide in Gaza, which uses mass destruction of civilian infrastructure, hunger starvation as a weapon of war, indiscriminate targeting and bombing? The excuse that the enemy is hiding among the civil population in a highly populated area is miserable. Gaza is already inhabitable. The right questions are- can Israel deliberate starvation campaign be stopped? Can Israel be prevented from expelling the Palestinians from their own land? More links for what? aren’t the UN reports more than enough? they are enough for me.
UN agency accuses Israel of detaining, coercing staffers ...
Israel/oPt: UN experts appalled by reported human rights ...
UN expert accuses Israel of 'genocide' in Gaza
UN provides update on probe into Israeli allegations ...
---
(1) hint:the podium of the speaker of the Knesset hands a portrait. A bit ironic, isn’t it?

[Coughdrop addict]

I don't click on links that I don't know where they go, I don't use Twitter. I have read the justification that the IDF gives in this regard (in the article that I cited) it seems ridiculous to me to say that these mass graves are Palestinian burials from months ago. By the way, the IDF changing the location of corpses, move them from where their families buried them, is emetic.

You're running away from sumskilz evidence because it contradicts what you believe. You're engaging in crimestop.

[PointOfViewGun]

You're running away from sumskilz evidence because it contradicts what you believe. You're engaging in crimestop.

Literally his source:

This does not exclude that graves could have been added when the hospital was occupied by Israeli forces.

[Ludicus]

Ravina Shamdasani, spokesperson for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights,

On the mass grave at Nasser Hospital: “Among the 283 deceased were allegedly older people, women and wounded, while others were found tied with their hands…tied and stripped of their clothes”.

It was Hamas, of course, it could never be the most moral army in the world.
--
Edit- an excellent comparison,




Edit II,

Mr. Netanyahu, do not insult the intelligence of the American people.

No, Mr. Netanyahu. It is not antisemitic or pro-Hamas to point out that in a little over six months your extremist government has killed 34,000 Palestinians and wounded more than 77,000 – seventy percent of whom are women and children.
It is not antisemitic to point out that your bombing has completely destroyed more than 221,000 housing units in Gaza, leaving more than one million people homeless – almost half the population.
It is not antisemitic to note that your government has obliterated Gaza’s civilian infrastructure – electricity, water, and sewage.
It is not antisemitic to realize that your government has annihilated Gaza’s health care system, knocking 26 hospitals out of service and killing more than 400 health care workers.
It is not antisemitic to condemn your government’s destruction of all of Gaza’s 12 universities and 56 of its schools, with hundreds more damaged, leaving 625,000 students with no education.
It is not antisemitic to agree with virtually every humanitarian organization in saying that your government, in violation of American law, has unreasonably blocked humanitarian aid coming into Gaza, creating the conditions in which hundreds of thousands of children face malnutrition and famine.
Mr. Netanyahu. Antisemitism is a vile and disgusting form of bigotry that has done unspeakable harm to many millions of people. But, please, do not insult the intelligence of the American people by attempting to distract us from the immoral and illegal war policies of your extremist and racist government. Do not use antisemitism to deflect attention from the criminal indictment you are facing in the Israeli courts. It is not antisemitic to hold you accountable for your actions.

And, of course, don’t insult our intelligence, Netanyahu/Israeli's apologists.

[Ludicus]

Double post