Hamas attacks southern Israel

[Muizer]

Ok, I see you're not actually replying to what I said. That's fine. You do you.

[mishkin]

You want the media to report on what the Israeli population is suffering while the IDF razes Gaza, okay.

[Muizer]

You want the media to report on what the Israeli population is suffering while the IDF razes Gaza, okay.

[mishkin]

What do you want the media headlines to be? What do you miss in the articles you read about the war? (By the way, my response was to your unedited message.).

"Israel is losing the information war because the IDF are criminals who do not want it to be known what they are doing in Gaza". I would totally agree with this, I'm glad if this or something similar is your message.

[Muizer]

What do you want the media headlines to be?

I do not presume to know what's going on better than those media do.

What do you miss in the articles you read about the war?

The media regularly mention 'fighting', so there is actual combat going on, but they report very little about the scale or how it unfolds. In practice, we are often left to choose between Hamas' claim they weren't even there and Israel's claim they played by the book.

In the absence of a literal smoking Hamas gun the blame is going to default to Israel in public opinion. Because it's their firepower that is responsible for most of the damage and 'trust us, we play by the book' isn't going to work forever, if it ever did.

My point about losing the information war is that Israel is failing to provide that smoking gun. Not some stuff of questionable provenance found at the 'crime scene' afterwards. They need to give insight in the actual situation they say justifies their use of force. Their perspective from the ground.

[Kyriakos]

Ever let the thought come to your head that there isn't evidence of a smoking gun because there is no smoking gun?
The situation in some countries - don't know about Holland, Germany certainly is one of them - regarding blind support of the state of Israel, is at the very least alarming, considering the tens of thousands killed palestinians - including nearly 15.000 murdered palestinians kids, don't forget.

[mishkin]

Israel has been very prolific in showing documentation/videos about the threat from Hamas (tunnels, arsenals...), as it was very prolific in showing images and testimonies from October 7. When they doesn't show something that could benefit them it's because it doesn't exist.

Ninjaed. I am really slow typing

Ever let the thought come to your head that there isn't evidence of a smoking gun because there is no smoking gun?

Slightly related: Gaza: UN experts condemn killing and silencing of journalists

“We are alarmed at the extraordinarily high numbers of journalists and media workers who have been killed, attacked, injured and detained in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, particularly in Gaza, in recent months blatantly disregarding international law,” the experts said.

[PointOfViewGun]

Well it is clear Israel is losing the information war. In the Western media a pattern has been established Israel is leveling buildings and hospitals and gratuitously slaughtering civilians in (feigned) pursuit of an imaginary enemy. One has to read between the lines to find anything about armed resistance. It is usually just hinted at with vague statements like "there has been fighting" or "during fighting". Ironically one has to look to dodgy pro-militant fanatic sources to get some idea of what that 'fighting' might be like. But just like other highly partisan sources, that's not going to be representative. If Israel can't or won't give publicity to its own "view from the ground" to counter this image, that's going to be a problem: "Trust us, we know what we're doing and we play by the rules" has stopped working for some time now.

If Israel is losing the information war its not because they're lagging behind but because the information they try to feed the international community keep on turning to be false or down right genocidal.

The media regularly mention 'fighting', so there is actual combat going on, but they report very little about the scale or how it unfolds. In practice, we are often left to choose between Hamas' claim they weren't even there and Israel's claim they played by the book.

This is by design as Israel doesn't allow international journalists into Gaza.

[Muizer]

Ever let the thought come to your head that there isn't evidence of a smoking gun because there is no smoking gun?

You mean that there is basically no war in Gaza, just the IDF wreaking havoc on civilians and civilian infrastructure with no enemy in sight?

The situation in some countries - don't know about Holland, Germany certainly is one of them - regarding blind support of the state of Israel, is at the very least alarming, considering the tens of thousands killed palestinians - including nearly 15.000 murdered palestinians kids, don't forget.

By whom. Not in popular opinion. My impression is that Israel has burnt up whatever credit it had. The government? As I said before, initially they had to back the principle of self-defense. Then they have the issue that there is no one that has both the power and credibility to act as a Palestinian counterpart in any kind of negotiation. Anyway, in the end it is all down to the US.

Israel has been very prolific in showing documentation/videos about the threat from Hamas (tunnels, arsenals...), as it was very prolific in showing images and testimonies from October 7. When they doesn't show something that could benefit them it's because it doesn't exist.

Bit speculative. It's hardly common practice for countries at war to publish material showing their own troops coming under fire.

[mishkin]

Bit speculative. It's hardly common practice for countries at war to publish material showing their own troops coming under fire.

I have just been watching youtube videos of the Israeli infantry in combat (shooting and being shot) with Hamas in Gaza (not for fun but because of your comment) just like there are videos of the fighting in Ukraine

[sumskilz]

It is not the information war, it is the reality of the atrocity that Israel is committing that makes the actions of the other side (Hamas) pale.

If even the most conventional media highlights the atrocities that Israel is committing, it is because this reality is impossible to ignore.

Casualties of the Israel–Hamas war (wikipedia)

What isn’t there is a good example of Israel losing the information war.

On March 3rd, the Hamas run Gaza Ministry of Health released a casualty report that stated (in Arabic) that of the 30,534 casualties at that time “17,348 of them were registered martyrs, while 13,186 more were monitored according to reliable media sources due to the interruption of communication with hospitals in Gaza [Governate] and the North”.

Here is a breakdown comparison of the casualties according to their hospital records versus those according to what they refer to as “reliable media sources”:



Note the drastic difference in the demographic breakdown.

In a subsequent report, it was clarified that those in the first category are “the martyrs listed in the records of the Ministry of Health who have been registered through the medical staff directly, or by informing the families of the martyrs” whereas those in the later are “martyrs who do not have complete information that includes ID number, full name, gender, date of birth, date”.

The demographic breakdown of the casualties for which they say they have records reflect what would be expected in an urban warfare situation, whereas those for which they don’t have records are absurdly biased toward children with very few men killed. They claim that they lack records for these casualties because they died in the north, that is the north where the civilian population has been largely evacuated, meaning that one must believe that in the area with the least civilians, where there has been very little fighting for months, the IDF seems to only be able to kill children. They’re not even good at lying, but they don’t have to be.

The IDF claims to have killed about 13,000 militants. Combatants and civilians are not distinguished in the Hamas reports. It is also worth noting that the children in the hospital records are disproportionately male, suggesting that some non-trivial proportion of them were teenage militants.

An analysis taking both the Hamas and IDF totals at face value:

[Muizer]

I have just been watching youtube videos of the Israeli infantry in combat (shooting and being shot) with Hamas in Gaza (not for fun but because of your comment) just like there are videos of the fighting in Ukraine

"Seek and ye shall find". That's pretty much where the ammo for this discussion is coming from these days, wouldn't you say? I've actually found myself on the verge of getting sucked into the confirmation bias vortex before realized I was letting posters goad me into becoming the enemy they apparently crave. I'm going to stick with the sources I believe have a reputation for truthfulness to uphold and trust them over what I can find myself if I start looking, even if I am somewhat frustrated by what are obvious questions that they can't answer.

[Kyriakos]

It's ok, you should just stick to what the IDF says. After all, they run checks on their own self, so if they are wrong they will know and be self-punished.
Foreign journalists not being allowed (by Israel) in Gaza or killed (by Israel), isn't related either.

[PointOfViewGun]

What isn’t there is a good example of Israel losing the information war.
On March 3rd, the Hamas run Gaza Ministry of Health released a casualty report that stated (in Arabic) that of the 30,534 casualties at that time “17,348 of them were registered martyrs, while 13,186 more were monitored according to reliable media sources due to the interruption of communication with hospitals in Gaza [Governate] and the North”.
Here is a breakdown comparison of the casualties according to their hospital records versus those according to what they refer to as “reliable media sources”:
Note the drastic difference in the demographic breakdown.
In a subsequent report, it was clarified that those in the first category are “the martyrs listed in the records of the Ministry of Health who have been registered through the medical staff directly, or by informing the families of the martyrs” whereas those in the later are “martyrs who do not have complete information that includes ID number, full name, gender, date of birth, date”.
The demographic breakdown of the casualties for which they say they have records reflect what would be expected in an urban warfare situation, whereas those for which they don’t have records are absurdly biased toward children with very few men killed. They claim that they lack records for these casualties because they died in the north, that is the north where the civilian population has been largely evacuated, meaning that one must believe that in the area with the least civilians, where there has been very little fighting for months, the IDF seems to only be able to kill children. They’re not even good at lying, but they don’t have to be.
The IDF claims to have killed about 13,000 militants. Combatants and civilians are not distinguished in the Hamas reports. It is also worth noting that the children in the hospital records are disproportionately male, suggesting that some non-trivial proportion of them were teenage militants.
An analysis taking both the Hamas and IDF totals at face value:

What is the expected casualty numbers for an urban warfare situation? Who determines that?

[mishkin]

Gaza: Number of children killed higher than from four years of world conflict (United Nations)

at least 12,300 youngsters have died in the enclave in the last four months, compared with 12,193 globally between 2019 and 2022.

but according to some many of those children could be militiamen, so

[Ludicus]

Searching for the dead as mass graves exhumed in Gaza

White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan said the U.S. has been in contact "at multiple levels with the Israeli government" for answers.

Multiple levels,they say.That's funny. Pro-Gaza protests at the US universities intensify across US. Ongoing protests:
Emerson
Barnard
Brown
Columbia
Yale
NYU
OSU
Michigan
Minnesota
Cal Poly Humboldt
Berkeley
USC
Austin
Florida
VSC
New Mexico
San Diego
--
Hundreds of "anti-semitic Jewish" demonstrators arrested…


US protesters block roads, bridges and airports.


---

[Muizer]

It's ok, you should just stick to what the IDF says. After all, they run checks on their own self, so if they are wrong they will know and be self-punished.
Foreign journalists not being allowed (by Israel) in Gaza or killed (by Israel), isn't related either.

I take it you're addressing sumskilz? Because if it was me, that would imply you're thinking I'm counting the IDF as a "source I believe has a reputation for truthfulness to uphold". That would be a rather nonsensical and baseless assumption to make, I know but I've seen it happen before. Just checking.

[Ludicus]

The western apologists for Israel's apartheid regime never cease to amaze me.
The Palestinians continue to be crushed with Western approval, whose guilty conscience leads them to censor any expression of support for Palestinian rights and criticism of Israel. Hundreds of protesters have been detained during university protests across the US. Google fired 28 employees who criticized its contracts with Israel, which uses the company's technology and resources against Palestinians.
The alibi of anti-Semitism is very elastic: it's a euphemism for cancellation. Israel disregards UN resolutions, condemns the UN in every possible way, kills organization officials, as has never happened in any other conflict, targets UN schools and shelters, and calls for an urgent Security Council meeting because a country retaliated against its bombing of one of its consulates abroad. The humanitarian disaster in Gaza is far from over; the slow agony of the Palestinians is an Israeli strategy.

What isn’t there is a good example of Israel losing the information war....

"Hospital records", "analysis at face value"...I find all these arguments very intertaining, coming from someone who has already said that a few years ago that the Palestinians don't exist.

[sumskilz]

"Hospital records", "analysis at face value"...I find all these arguments very intertaining, coming from someone who has already said that a few years ago that the Palestinians don't exist.

That’s what you keep saying, but for some reason you never provide a link.

[Ludicus]

I always provide links. One more, for someone who says that Palestinians don't exist: an explosive report provided to the Biden Administration on April 18.

Report of the Independent Task Force on National the Application of National Security Memorandum-20 to Israel

The Task Force, which has worked on a voluntary basis, consists of experts on U.S. and international law, U.S. security assistance, and U.S. military best practices. For the past two months, we have combed through thousands of lines of data from credible nongovernmental organizations, ranging from human rights watchdogs to aid organizations working on the ground in Gaza.

Our findings were striking. Though Israel has attributed the 34,000 Palestinian casualties, 70 percent of whom are women and children, to alleged human shielding by Hamas, we found that in 11 out of the 16 incidents we analyzed, Israel did not even publicly identity a military target or attempt to justify the strike. Of the remaining five incidents, Israel publicly named targets with verification in two incidents, but no precautionary warning was given and we assess the anticipated civilian harm was known and excessive.

In one of the worst incidents in a strike on Gaza City on October 25, 2023, Israel nearly flattened the entire neighborhood of Al Yarmouk, including seven residential towers. In just the Al Taj residential tower, the bombing killed 91 Palestinians, including 28 women and 39 children. Israel’s only explanation was that a Hamas tunnel ran beneath the neighborhood. Not only did this attack disregard the duty to take precautionary measures and the duty to refrain from an attack where the civilian harm exceeds the military objective to be achieved, it suggests that Israel had the authority to bomb nearly all of Gaza in similar fashion which lay above 350 miles of subterranean tunnels.

Aware of the controversial terrain of international humanitarian law in asymmetric warfare, two-thirds of our report documents violations under applicable U.S. law or policy, including civilian harm mitigation in U.S. military best practices and Section 620I of the Foreign Assistance Act mandating no military support be given to states restricting access to humanitarian aid. In his analysis, our expert on U.S. targeting came to the same conclusion as did Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin, who said that the U.S. military would “absolutely not” systematically conduct strikes with a well understood high risk of civilian casualties, as the IDF have continuously.

Our aggregate data demonstrates a broader context of systematic disregard for fundamental principles of U.S. and international law, due to reliance on the steady and sure flow of U.S. armaments. According to a high ranking former IDF officer, Israel’s combat could have achieved similar military outcomes “with 10 percent of the destruction [Israel has] caused.” He attributes this “reckless conduct” to” an absolute assumption that the U.S. will continue to arm and finance [Israel’s military operations].” Indeed, since October 7, the United States has approved over 100 Foreign Military Sales arms transfers to Israel, two of them using an emergency authority to bypass Congressional review, and none of them accompanied by any conditions or “red lines” on usage despite conditionality inherent in U.S. laws and policies.

Our findings echo the concerns recently articulated by forty House Democrats, including Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), who have demanded that Biden halt weapons transfers to Israel. As their letter noted, “it is critical to ensure that the U.S. government is fully utilizing the expertise of State Department and DoD officials and legal experts, [including] important intelligence community assessments and data, in thoroughly assessing Israel’s actions in Gaza.”

It is our hope the Task Force’s work facilitates the drafting efforts currently under way within the administration to meet the reporting requirements of NSM-20, resulting in the overdue enforcement of applicable U.S. law as it relates to arms transfers and security assistance, and using all available means to remove all restrictions on the flow of humanitarian assistance into Gaza.
The mounting evidence before the Biden administration now pales only in comparison to the humanitarian crisis afflicting Palestinians in Gaza. As the Task Force’s work demonstrates, the facts could not be more clear. It is now up to the Biden administration to act on them.