Hamas attacks southern Israel

[mishkin]

Ok, yes, I.said that. Funny, I was thinking that you have the same fanatic mentallity as any isis guy

[alhoon]

Unhinged take of the day.

For cooler heads:
https://jacobin.com/2023/10/israel-p...aza-oppression



Anyone not discussing this development in terms of the consequences of a brutal occupation is either ignorant or arguing in bad faith. End of story.

Dude for all the crimes Israel's government may have done, those guys partying not-too-close from the border were mostly innocent.

A reply to a mass murder by a well organized attack cannot be "yes, but Israel..."

[mishkin]

I would be slightly pissed off with some guys partying while my family lives in a gueto, in their homeland. Good night

Apologies to moderation, do your thing

[PointOfViewGun]

So I'd fit right in with the Islamic world leaders.

And as I said I'm quite emotional in this. I'm angry. I'm horrified. Anyone looking at these crimes dispassionately is probably a sociopath.

Only if these are crimes from both sides.

[Hobbes]

How does water help Hamas fight Israel?

Energy minister instructs authorities to cut off water to Gaza

Can't achieve your ethnic cleansing goals without at least some war crimes. If only the Isreali government had knowledge of some culturally relevant historical precedent that could inform their decisions...

[Hobbes]

Dude for all the crimes Israel's government may have done, those guys partying not-too-close from the border were mostly innocent.

A reply to a mass murder by a well organized attack cannot be "yes, but Israel..."

Who are you replying to exactly? Did you read my post?

[Phier]

Only if these crimes from both sides.

What does this mean exactly?

[Muizer]

Dude for all the crimes Israel's government may have done, those guys partying not-too-close from the border were mostly innocent.

A reply to a mass murder by a well organized attack cannot be "yes, but Israel..."

Maybe not 'but', but certainly 'and'. We have two peoples lead by factions that are determined to eradicate the other. Between the genocidal rhetoric and crude violence of Hamas and the methodical and relentless eviction of Palestinians by Israel why on earth would we take any side?

IMHO to take sides comes down to an essentialist qualification that one side is fundamentally 'good' and one side is fundamentally 'evil'. Because once you have decided one side is fundamentally 'good', one can explain away the atrocities it commits as "for the greater good".

But if you don't make a call on the inherent virtue of a people, all we are left with are two that are evidently both behaving appallingly.

[PointOfViewGun]

What does this mean exactly?

The crimes you spoke of that should horrify everyone. Your statement only makes sense if crimes from both sides horrify a person. Selective horrification doesn't exactly make a person normal.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Unhinged take of the day.

Well Hobbes I think you’ll agree communism and anarchism are unhinged according to most people, so I’m not sure what you mean by rational. Especially since atheists and secularists, concepts I suppose you might find rational, tend to get imprisoned and tortured by the people you defend so ardently. You say Israel deserves constant bombings for years and now yet another large scale invasion just because the Arabs don’t want them there and never did, like when they tried to “drive them into the sea” not so long ago to ethnically cleanse them from rightful Arab clay. So I have to ask: Where should the Jews go if they can’t go home? Where is a safe place for them that they can exist as a polity and defend themselves against all the people who have tried to wipe them out everywhere they have tried to live? The clearly cannot live in peace next to people who are determined to call themselves “Palestinians,” as we have all been reminded of late, and defending themselves and their land is a “brutal occupation.”

You mention history, occupation, colonization, oppression and displacement, not seeming to recall how it is the Levant ever became majority Arab in the first place, or how it was that a series of foreign invaders invented the concept of “Palestine,” let alone how it was the Jews were kicked out of their homeland before that and chased across the planet by people trying to kill them.

Nobody is trying to wipe the Arabs off the map, and the Arabs who remained in Israel should have left like the vast majority did if they didn’t want to be a part of it. Someone is always trying to wipe the Jews off the map, and that’s what Hamas has been fanatically committed to do for decades now, according to their own charter. So why would any anti-nationalist be so committed to Arab nationalism?

[Hobbes]

Well Hobbes I think you’ll agree communism and anarchism are unhinged according to most people, so I’m not sure what you mean by rational. Especially since atheists and secularists, things I suppose you do find rational, tend to get imprisoned and tortured by the people you defend so ardently

I am not supporting Hamas, this is some kind of delusion or lack of reading ability on your part, I guess. I don't think Jewish people are any more entitled to settle in Palestine than the Arabs are so I think they should all stay there.

Nobody is trying to wipe the Arabs off the map

Israel wants to be a nation state.

[Lord Thesaurian]

I am not supporting Hamas, this is some kind of delusion or lack of reading ability on your part, I guess. I don't think Jewish people are any more entitled to settle in Palestine than the Arabs are so I think they should all stay there.

The imprisoning and torturing was done by the people calling themselves the State of Palestine, or the Palestinian Authority. You characterized the state of Israel as a brutal occupation and stated anyone who doesn’t acknowledge what Hamas is doing as a consequence of that are ignorant. If you don’t want to defend your views, that’s fine, but if you don’t think the descendants of people who are indigenous to a place have more of a right to stay there than those of the foreigners who literally invaded it as a military conquest of the entire region, why should anyone take your complaints about the current situation seriously or discuss them “in good faith,” as you put it?

Israel wants to be a nation state.

They are a nation state, against all odds. The Arabs have several. There’s no reason the Arabs determined to call themselves “Palestinians” can’t pick one like the other 80% did, instead of periodically firing rockets from densely populated urban areas so the whole world will remember to feel sorry for their fanatical commitment to Arab nationalism when they’re hit with counterstrikes. Plenty of other Arabs live peacefully as Israeli citizens.

[Phier]

The crimes you spoke of that should horrify everyone. Your statement only makes sense if crimes from both sides horrify a person. Selective horrification doesn't exactly make a person normal.

Absolutely NOTHING in any way justifies this attack. There is no equivalence. There is no "crimes of both sides" to compare.

[sumskilz]

Who are you replying to exactly? Did you read my post?

Your post was mostly quotes from an article which could most charitably be referred to as misleading, due to its lies of omission regarding the context of the events it cites, along with a few objectively false statements. Functionally, it’s whataboutism.

[alhoon]

Maybe not 'but', but certainly 'and'. We have two peoples lead by factions that are determined to eradicate the other. Between the genocidal rhetoric and crude violence of Hamas and the methodical and relentless eviction of Palestinians by Israel why on earth would we take any side?


But if you don't make a call on the inherent virtue of a people, all we are left with are two that are evidently both behaving appallingly.

I Do not have the answer Muizer.
I can always hope that Israel will not butcher 5000 Palestinians in their drive for vengeance (yes vengeance, not security nor justice) but I don't hold my breath. But as I said, and you said both sides are behaving appallingly. Which means Hamas too and they killed innocent people.
Sure, as Mishkin said those people were having a party on land the other side considers their country but gunning them down will not solve the issue.

"both sides are behaving appallingly " indeed means Israel too and they killed innocent people.

But two wrongs don't make a right. I can understand Gazans attacking military installations and police stations. I would consider that an act of insurgency. Doomed to fail, but an act of insurgency. I can also kinda swallow the bitter pill of bombing Israel with crappy bombs that would kill indiscrimately as they attacked to get back some freedoms.
But Hamas was specifically targeting civilians. They were not "caught on the way", they were not "unfortunate collateral damage" they were the target.
That is inexcusable.

And no, I am not sure WHAT will solve the issue of Gaza and Israel.
Perhaps, and this is just a start and may backfire spectacularly, perhaps bring in 1000-2000 UN soldiers on the border, half of them from large units from the more distant parts of the Muslim world. Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia, Morocco etc.
And replace them often as for years they will be taking severe casualties.
But this will buy some time and allow for a more humane control of the siege of Gaza, with more freedoms to the people there. It will still be the worlds biggest concentration camp but it will be a less bad one. And with time, Egypt may be convinced to open the border with Gaza. Or allow more mobility.
Or, it may backfire and accomplish nothing. I don't know.

[Vanoi]

This new war certainly won't help the Palestinian independence cause. If this was supposed to help draw more people's gaze towards the Israel-Palestinian conflict it worked. Just not likely in the way they hoped.

I predict we will definitely see Israel hit more targets in Lebanon and will likely even target IRGC troops based in Syria.

[alhoon]

They are a nation state, against all odds. The Arabs have several. There’s no reason the Arabs determined to call themselves “Palestinians” can’t pick one like the other 80% did, instead of periodically firing rockets from densely populated urban areas so the whole world will remember to feel sorry for their fanatical commitment to Arab nationalism when they’re hit with counterstrikes. Plenty of other Arabs live peacefully as Israeli citizens.

Because those Arabs that call themselves Palestinians were living in that place for millennia. Israel has no right to evict them from their homes so they can build their own settlements.
Israel is also creating a horrible situation for them by keeping Gaza barricated which plays right into the hands of extremists as the trapped people become angry. It is a cycle of violence that goes far back.

Absolutely NOTHING in any way justifies this attack.

There we agree.

There is no "crimes of both sides" to compare.

There we disagree. Israel keeps 2.3 million people trapped, providing them with only what Israel thinks they should have and the Israelis are not shy on brutal attacks that cause significant civilian casualties.
It is obvious that after decades of such treatment there will be resentment.

This new war certainly won't help the Palestinian independence cause. If this was supposed to help draw more people's gaze towards the Israel-Palestinian conflict it worked. Just not likely in the way they hoped.

Actually, I think that it works the way HAMAS hoped as they don't want peace. Israel will go in and do brutal counter attacks. For Hamas, Soldiers that die ~> martyrs. Civilians that die ~> their siblings, children and friends will more easily join HAMAS in a couple of years recouping the losses in warriors AND strengthen Hamas hold on Gaza as the hate is reignited through deaths and counterstrikes.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Because those Arabs that call themselves Palestinians were living in that place for millennia. Israel has no right to evict them from their homes so they can build their own settlements.

The settlements you are referring to are in the West Bank, not Gaza, and in the latter case, there haven’t been for nearly 20 years. Many of these settlements are in places where the Jews had lived for centuries, or even since Biblical times, but were forced out by the Arabs, especially in Gaza, ironically - not just by Islamic armies, but also by Arab mobs in the 19th and 20th centuries. The Arabs are only there in the first place because the land was taken by Arab military conquest, just as Arab nationalism is the primary motivation for “Palestinian” statehood to this day. Karma is rough.

Israel is also creating a horrible situation for them by keeping Gaza barricated which plays right into the hands of extremists as the trapped people become angry. It is a cycle of violence that goes far back.

We have just been reminded why travel to and from Gaza is restricted. Clearly, it was not restricted enough. For some reason, nobody ever puts the onus on Egypt for constructing a steel wall along the Gaza border, starting a second concrete wall in 2020, or closing the border in 2021 because of Hamas. Do you think they will reopen it to refugees now?

[Kyriakos]

I don't like this one bit. Seriously, how many concurrent wars do some people need to realize the situation is destabilized globally and far worse may come?
At this rate of new wars it won't even take a nuke.

[Vanoi]

https://www.axios.com/2023/10/09/isr...ae-syria-assad

The UAE is warning Assad to not intervene or allow attacks from his country against Israel. The UAE has the most influence out of all Arab nations with Syria so this warning might work.