Presidential primaries (2024)

[alhoon]

The Latter are fooling themselves because they don't want to tarnish the first black president. Any List that ranks him Higher than LBJ is not worth the server space it occupies. Certainly not if seen from the democratic perspective. Also on the second link again from a democratic perspective Bill was clearly better than Obama. But I suspect just because JFK was telegenic and young you rank over LBJ. Boomer love JFK he is beyond overrated.

[...]


You clearly have only the vaguest understanding of the US system.

I am not the one that just called out entire sects of scholars as pandering to Obama's race just because they don't agree with a specific (and wrong) view of him.


Now, on the specifics:

Failure to leave A-stan. Libya and Syria blunders. Reducing himself to the flawed Romney care plan for national health care and waiting around for the illusion of bi partisan cooperation from republicans who made it clear that was not forthcoming. Failing to allow Bush tax cuts to sunset in the vain hope of more not ever appearing deals with republicans. Failing to get RBG to retire an ill women when he had the chance to replace her with somebody young (you note a mistake the republicans do not make) Failing to develop the Democrats at the state level - allowing otherwise blue states like Wisconsin and Michigan to be gerrymandered to into red states. His pace of not getting the federal bench filled allowing Trump a whole pile load of seats to fill. Continuing Carter and Clinton's disdain for organized labor. Wasting political capital on a pointless nuclear deal with Iran that he knew he could not turn into a treaty. Immigration reform - I think not. Listened to an ass like Larry summers and not doing enough to really deal with the banking crisis but just enough to save the wealth of the wealthy. Not one effort to follow the lead of the states and start the ball rolling on legalizing pot at the federal level. Nope sorry Obama talks nice and is telegenic but I rank him no better than Carter. Its cool he was black but kinda useless considering the kind of congressional majority he had.

- Yeah, I consider staying in Afghanistan and intervention in Libya as the correct decision. NOT intervening in Syria and deposing of Assad was indeed a mistake, but the USA public didn't want it.
- Trying for bipartisanship on the health care plan was not a mistake and Obamacare is better than nothing, it is actually a "big ####ing deal" - as Biden himself said. Obamacare was so resilient that Republicans found no way to dismantle it, once they had their chance.
- "Failure to get RGB to retire" ... not his fault she didn't retire and trying to convince a SCotUS judge to retire and intervene so heavily in the judicial branch as the executive boss would be very very bad. Only a powerhungry butthole would try that. I.e. that would have been a Trump move and it would have failed. No, it is not a mistake to not try to strong-arm the SCotUS.
- "Failing to develop the Democrats at the state level - allowing otherwise blue states like Wisconsin and Michigan to be gerrymandered to into red states." Sooooo... you count it as his failure that he didn't overstep his authority at the FEDERAL level to strong-arm the state governments to play by the rules he wanted. No, it is good thing Obama was not willing to cheat and it is a good thing that Obama didn't try to overstep his authority to force the states to do what the PARTY would have preferred.
Not to mention that Wisconsin and Michigan voted for Trump in 2016 and that was not gerrymandering. They were not as blue states as you think.
- " His pace of not getting the federal bench filled allowing Trump a whole pile load of seats to fill. " Again, a good thing he was not an authoritarian butthole, willing to cheat to ensure the PARTY would dominate.
- "Continuing Carter and Clinton's disdain for organized labor." Not a bad thing either. I also agree with this.
- " Wasting political capital on a pointless nuclear deal with Iran" That "pointless" nuclear deal improved manyfold the relations between Iran and the West, to the point that when USA soldiers were arrested for infringing at the border, when Republicans were screaming that the Persians will do unspeakable horrors to these men and that unless Obama has no balls, he should strike at Iran and get them free... Iran released them amicably the very next day.
- "Listened to an ass like Larry summers and not doing enough to really deal with the banking crisis but just enough to save the wealth of the wealthy. " <=== on that, I cannot comment, perhaps you are right, perhaps you are wrong. I don't know.
- "Not one effort to follow the lead of the states and start the ball rolling on legalizing pot at the federal level. " Again, something I agree with.

Soooo... all in all, I disagree with you in several of these and common sense disagrees with you in several of these and more importantly... a several scholars disagree with you.
Many of the things you wanted, especially interfering in the other branches of government or the state politics, sound like Trump's kind of thing.

[chilon]

I am not the one that just called out entire sects of scholars as pandering to Obama's race just because they don't agree with a specific (and wrong) view of him.

Now, on the specifics:

- Yeah, I consider staying in Afghanistan and intervention in Libya as the correct decision. NOT intervening in Syria and deposing of Assad was indeed a mistake, but the USA public didn't want it.
- Trying for bipartisanship on the health care plan was not a mistake and Obamacare is better than nothing, it is actually a "big ####ing deal" - as Biden himself said. Obamacare was so resilient that Republicans found no way to dismantle it, once they had their chance.

It was a failure because Obamacare was a window to fix some of the fundamental flaws with the US for-profit system and it failed to do that. The Reps can't overturn it because despite it being a bogeyman for radical right wingers because Obama, the monied entities in for profit healthcare still massively profit from the system.

- "Failure to get RGB to retire" ... not his fault she didn't retire and trying to convince a SCotUS judge to retire and intervene so heavily in the judicial branch as the executive boss would be very very bad. Only a powerhungry butthole would try that. I.e. that would have been a Trump move and it would have failed. No, it is not a mistake to not try to strong-arm the SCotUS.

Trump and the Republicans did do it and were quite successful so you're wrong here.

- "Failing to develop the Democrats at the state level - allowing otherwise blue states like Wisconsin and Michigan to be gerrymandered to into red states." Sooooo... you count it as his failure that he didn't overstep his authority at the FEDERAL level to strong-arm the state governments to play by the rules he wanted. No, it is good thing Obama was not willing to cheat and it is a good thing that Obama didn't try to overstep his authority to force the states to do what the PARTY would have preferred.
Not to mention that Wisconsin and Michigan voted for Trump in 2016 and that was not gerrymandering. They were not as blue states as you think.

Nothing to do with "strong arming", conon is just talking about building up party infrastructure. You seem to vastly miss the point conon is making completely.

- " His pace of not getting the federal bench filled allowing Trump a whole pile load of seats to fill. " Again, a good thing he was not an authoritarian butthole, willing to cheat to ensure the PARTY would dominate.

Bizarre comment. Filling vacancies on courts is literally one of the jobs of a President. Nothing to do with cheating.

Although to be fair to Obama, I believe one problem was the Republicans doing everything in their power to deny Obama the chance to fill vacancies with unprecedented obstruction (like with Garland).

- "Listened to an ass like Larry summers and not doing enough to really deal with the banking crisis but just enough to save the wealth of the wealthy. " <=== on that, I cannot comment, perhaps you are right, perhaps you are wrong. I don't know.

He's 100% right. This was another window of opportunity that Obama really failed to make historic changes that would have benefited the country as a whole not just a tiny minority of wealthy.

- "Not one effort to follow the lead of the states and start the ball rolling on legalizing pot at the federal level. " Again, something I agree with.

Not supporting an end to the failed and detrimental war on drugs and not supporting de-criminalizing pot on a Federal level is only something that "authoritarian buttholes" would agree with.

Soooo... all in all, I disagree with you in several of these and common sense disagrees with you in several of these and more importantly... a several scholars disagree with you.
Many of the things you wanted, especially interfering in the other branches of government or the state politics, sound like Trump's kind of thing.

Nothing conon mentioned is really interfering in other branches of government. Plus, you can add other things that Obama era Dems failed to do when they had the chance like protecting abortion on a federal level, addressing the systemic problems of inequality which have many symptoms now like homelessness like not letting Bush tax cuts expire and failing to really deliver on his 2008 rhetoric of taking the Dems I a new direction and not just being an extension of Clintonian neo-liberalism.

[conon394]

I am not the one that just called out entire sects of scholars as pandering to Obama's race just because they don't agree with a specific (and wrong) view of him.

He is overrated. Iwas tying to guess why.

Yeah, I consider staying in Afghanistan and intervention in Libya as the correct decision.

That conclusion seems I'm sorry to say a very odd one. Certainty the collapse of the A-stan government shows it had no real support, was corrupt to the core and was a waste of time. The assassination of OBL was the perfect time to leave the place to head back to the thirteenth century. Libya remains a significant blunder. Let's see intervene in the Arab world to topple a long standing dictator with no plan for what do to after what can go wrong. Excuse I saw the first film and did not like it, I did not see a need for a sequel (and worse a low budget one that never had a chance of producing anything but a failed state). Wow you want the reboot after the poor sequel? The mistake was getting involved at all. You would have Libya would have taught Obama that. I mean really all his credibility for opposing the Iraq invasion was tossed right out the window. The failed state of Libya is produced and continues to produce serious negative consequences all across the Sahel region. The only reason it rates lower than Bush Jrs Iraq misadventure is Obama just walked away a left the mess so its comparatively low cost to the US - no so much Europe. I hate to cite the CATO institiue but on this they spot on (1.)

Trying for bipartisanship on the health care plan was not a mistake and Obamacare is better than nothing, it is actually a "big ####ing deal" - as Biden himself said. Obamacare was so resilient that Republicans found no way to dismantle it, once they had their chance.

In trying to so bipartisanship to the bitter end however Obama opted for a deal that was sub optimal from the perspective of a lot of the democratic base, and sub optimal in terms of really fixing the economics of US health care. You know the bit where we pay far in GDP terms than say France for far poorer health outcomes. The thing is its one thing to try for bipartisanship but its another to stick with a Republican devised plan long after it clear that the you will get no Republican votes for it (yes I know technically it got one R vote). Sure can say he got burned once but that does not seem to have taught his administration anything again and again they bent over looking bipartisanship when it was clear it was not forthcoming. Thus say letting the Bush tax cuts stand when the US could have patched that renew hold by letting them sunset. Nominal the defenders of this point to Obama thinking he was going thus earn Republican support for the Dreamers act (good luck). More importantly perhaps the only thing he got out of it was a minor extension in Unemployment and the small child tax credit but he add to add add in a payroll tax cut (great looks now but robs social security and Medicare) and cutting akos cutting the estate tax. Again and again the Republican cut away at the top income tax rates and the estate tax (just year after years reinforcing the skew in income and wealth in the US to level that start to make the Gilded age look mild) and Obama gave for noting but a few paltry trinkets and deals that never materialized on legislation. Note this is in 2010 had he ignored Summers and gone for a bigger recovery package in 2008 he would not have been worried about a sluggish economy and need to deal for unemployment extensions so desperately. But Summers was worried about inflation back in 2008 you know when inflation was practically 0 and we were on the cusp of deflation. Summers is and embarrassment to the economic profession.

"Failure to get RGB to retire" ... not his fault she didn't retire and trying to convince a SCotUS judge to retire and intervene so heavily in the judicial branch as the executive boss would be very very bad. Only a powerhungry butthole would try that. I.e. that would have been a Trump move and it would have failed. No, it is not a mistake to not try to strong-arm the SCotUS.

Or the kind of move LBJ would do. But the point remains RBG made a foolish choice and harmed her legacy. Not a butthole move a political adroit move to secure the liberal side of the bench. What pressure could he used I dunno but we certainly have no evidence that the administration tried or dropped hints or had a surrogates do so.

"Failing to develop the Democrats at the state level - allowing otherwise blue states like Wisconsin and Michigan to be gerrymandered to into red states." Sooooo... you count it as his failure that he didn't overstep his authority at the FEDERAL level to strong-arm the state governments to play by the rules he wanted. No, it is good thing Obama was not willing to cheat and it is a good thing that Obama didn't try to overstep his authority to force the states to do what the PARTY would have preferred.

What??? No as President he was the face and leader of the Party. Under Obama he allowed the democratic political machinery to ossify. It one thing to loose Idaho has a competitive state since is so deep red. But Wisconsin or Florida? Howard Dean whatever his vocal reactions on stage were was right. The Dems need to fight every state, every election. even Idaho an unopposed election is letting the other save money and effort for the few swing states in the system. Obama was indifferent to driving that direction for the party. He was a complacent political leader on this score.

Not to mention that Wisconsin and Michigan voted for Trump in 2016 and that was not gerrymandering. They were not as blue states as you think.

Considering the razor thin margins and Hillary being rather a poor candidate choice I don't really think of of defining blue state solely on the presidential election. Again the better picture is what happened in Michigan in 2020 with the implementation of non partisan based districts and the republican majorities ended. The same would follow in Wisconsin under the same conditions.

Also of course lets be clear I was compressing also the effects of the electoral system into my point - which gets back to the Obama letting the 50 state strategy wither. Clinton easily won the popular vote which means it was critical for the Dens to working tirelessly to make any red state at least purple during Obama's second term.

- "Continuing Carter and Clinton's disdain for organized labor." Not a bad thing either. I also agree with this.

Organized labor is one of the key continuances that provides money and foot soldiers for the democrats - crapping on them for is a good way to end up in the minority. Got no ideal what your beef with labor is but last I checked labor had the power Walter Reuther had in the 60s the income and wealth disparity in the US was not absurd. It be a like a Republican in Mississippi coming out saying I pro Choice and we have to stop listening to the evangelicals... yep that will work.

" His pace of not getting the federal bench filled allowing Trump a whole pile load of seats to fill. " Again, a good thing he was not an authoritarian butthole, willing to cheat to ensure the PARTY would dominate.

It the presidents job to fill the bench it s not cheating - I not sure you understand the US system here. Trump did not cheat he simply filled the seats he could. Did the Republican in the Senate violate traditions and norms (or push them to the max) to slow Obama's appointments. Sure but again the senate writes own rules and follows its traditions only so far and the majority and minority can test them. Again here is why Obama fails. He did push hard to fill seats when he had a senat majority. And than loosing it he did seem to expect Republicans to be so opposition. He needed to have choices ready to go for every nomination the one he knew would be opposed but at least to centrist options better that than the extremists the federalist society found for Trump. Mitch could not pull a Garland on all of them.

- " Wasting political capital on a pointless nuclear deal with Iran" That "pointless" nuclear deal improved manyfold the relations between Iran and the West, to the point that when USA soldiers were arrested for infringing at the border, when Republicans were screaming that the Persians will do unspeakable horrors to these men and that unless Obama has no balls, he should strike at Iran and get them free... Iran released them amicably the very next day.

That all may be true but is basically a private between two presidents neither and since neither had a successor favoring the deal it was ephemeral. It never had a chance to be made a treaty in the US so again a waste of time. Obama would have been served taking aid to Ukraine more seriously or actually pivoting to China and start working undoing the damage China in the WTO did to the US economy. The deal was in all honestly probably a millstone electorally for the Dems. More importantly It was not going to alter the actions of IRGC. In addition I call it a fools hope. Iran is surrounded by nuclear powers but wants to be seen as a regional power. Mind you saw did Shah, and I don't even a magical democratic revolution would alter that perception for a new Iranian democracy. No nukes and under nobodies nuke umbrella and you are missing a piece in the puzzle.

"Listened to an ass like Larry summers and not doing enough to really deal with the banking crisis but just enough to save the wealth of the wealthy. " <=== on that, I cannot comment, perhaps you are right, perhaps you are wrong. I don't know.

I take the fact we seem on pace for a soft landing as a support for a yes. But critical in the Housing bubble burt it Summers who for all for saving the banks but programs to save the suffering hme owners was a step to far, inflationary, affordable.. Exactly the kind of move that opens the door for Trump rambling incoherent fake populism in point of fact. Sadly because it hits on a grain of truth.

- "Not one effort to follow the lead of the states and start the ball rolling on legalizing pot at the federal level. " Again, something I agree with.

Yes because the war on drugs has been such a success and the US mass incarceration state often for nn violent drug crimes a wonder the world sees and wants to emulate and pumping into the pockets of cartels has no down side at in Central and South America. I mean its not the US as empirical example to say nah this is stupid... oh wait prohibition – that worked out well.

Soooo... all in all, I disagree with you in several of these and common sense disagrees with you in several of these and more importantly... a several scholars disagree with you.
Many of the things you wanted, especially interfering in the other branches of government or the state politics, sound like Trump's kind of thing.

Scholars disagree on a lot things. Otherwise I just not sure you are grasping the US system well to reach your latter conclusion.


1. https://www.cato.org/commentary/whit...rous-war-libya

and

https://www.commondreams.org/opinion...us-imperialism

https://webcache.googleusercontent.c...1/&hl=en&gl=us

On the last Obama's glib answer is a bit nauseating

[conon394]

So long to Florida Man... no loss there of course he than decides to back the guy who named him Pudding fingers...there no end to groveling for Trump.

[alhoon]

So long to Florida Man... no loss there of course he than decides to back the guy who named him Pudding fingers...there no end to groveling for Trump.

What happened? Did DeSantis drop out?


Anyway: War on drugs thing
I am against the federal government deciding this. It should be up to the states. Furthermore, I didn't mean continue to imprison people for possession of minute amounts of Marijuana.
Do not destroy lives over possession of 1-2 grams but hit the person with a fine or community service. I.e. some penalty but nothing world-shattering. Something to say "as a sane society, we're not OK with this" but not throwing people in jail over it.

[conon394]

Anyway: War on drugs thing
I am against the federal government deciding this. It should be up to the states. Furthermore, I didn't mean continue to imprison people for possession of minute amounts of Marijuana.
Do not destroy lives over possession of 1-2 grams but hit the person with a fine or community service. I.e. some penalty but nothing world-shattering. Something to say "as a sane society, we're not OK with this" but not throwing people in jail over it.

Yes and that was my point Biden is the first President since the war on drugs to begin walking back the war on drugs at the Federal level.

---

What happened? Did DeSantis drop out?

Yes.

Which means Haley has to ecstatic she has to be crossing her fingers that she get some of his vote maybe a lot and that board democrats will vote for here since thay have nothing else to do and none of that would show up in a her polls in time so she has 48 hours to convince herself she got a chance at a win.

[alhoon]

Well, this will be a short thread, after all.

Biden is unchallenged.
Trump's only challenger is hoping to be within 10% of Trump before she gets a 25% defeat in her homestate...

[conon394]

Well, this will be a short thread, after all.

Biden is unchallenged.
Trump's only challenger is hoping to be within 10% of Trump before she gets a 25% defeat in her homestate...

True. But she will stay in to Super Tuesday no matter what. She has been taking pot shots tentatively at Trump's age and rambling so She has finally decided to attack the Trump. If she can pick up some of the money that was backing DeSantis can string it along and see if anything comes of the defamation case and financial case against Trump and hope from some bombshell out of the documents case... All good from my perspective more pro republican money wasted.

[Laser101]

Well, this will be a short thread, after all.

Biden is unchallenged.
Trump's only challenger is hoping to be within 10% of Trump before she gets a 25% defeat in her homestate...

It's a bit perplexing why the Democrats can't find a better candidate.

[conon394]

It's a bit perplexing why the Democrats can't find a better candidate.

No reason to.

[Laser101]

No reason to.

Except Biden is polling pretty badly.

[conon394]

Except Biden is polling pretty badly.

We been over this. Too many did think Trump was really going to be a the R nominee, and too many democrats are un focused and still Johnny unbeatable is just waiting to step in and said Johnny of course is 100% for their preferred policies and has a green lantern ring.

[alhoon]

No reason to.

That's your opinion, not the opinion of the majority. Biden's approval rating has been well below 45% for most of his term.

[conon394]

That's your opinion, not the opinion of the majority. Biden's approval rating has been well below 45% for most of his term.

I find approval rating poles pretty useless they are vague and mostly meaningless. I am disinclined to care about them.

[alhoon]

I find approval rating poles pretty useless they are vague and mostly meaningless. I am disinclined to care about them.

Sure, but then again, that's you.

[alhoon]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-thr...065211733.html

O_O
Trump tells to a few but not insignificant Donors ... he doesn't want them.

[conon394]

Ha I call BS on that. That's just verbiage for his MAGA base. Trump won't turn down anyone's money. He's just pissed off because Hailey has finally realized she has to you really attack Trump.

edit: Note it looks like the Biden democratic write campaign got more votes than Obama did on his incumbent second time in NH.

[Ludicus]

Changing the subject. It has to be said - as a candidate for the US presidency, Biden needs to be examined (MRI scan, neuropsychological evaluation) to rule out- or confirm- Alzheimer's disease. Isn't it a mandatory requirement?
Biden says he 'spoke to' doctor who 'invented' insulin
Biden mistakes living European leader for dead one-for second time in a week

[PointOfViewGun]

What Republican in its right mind would vote for that?

Trump says he would 'encourage' Russia to attack Nato allies who do not pay their bills

At a rally on Saturday, he said he had once told a leader he would not protect a nation behind on its payments, and would "encourage" the aggressors to "do whatever the hell they want".

He recalled that the leader of a "big country" had presented a hypothetical situation in which he was not meeting his financial obligations within Nato and had come under attack from Moscow. Mr Trump said the leader had asked if the US would come to his country's aid in that scenario, which prompted him to issue a rebuke. "I said: 'You didn't pay? You're delinquent?'... 'No I would not protect you, in fact I would encourage them to do whatever they want. You gotta pay.'"

[Coughdrop addict]

What Republican in its right mind would vote for that?

Trump says he would 'encourage' Russia to attack Nato allies who do not pay their bills

It us not surprising at all since most Republicans look on Russia with envy. Trump has all but admitted he'll pull the US out of NATO for a pat on the head from Putin.