Townhall - Curial Commentary and Chat

[Darth Red]

However, since the Curator is the master of procedure, it's up to his discretion.

Okay fair enough, my own fault. Looks like the further action started on Friday and with this monday being a US holiday and all I wasn't so active over the long weekend. By the time I got to the further action discussion on Tuesday it was pretty much concluded by then.

[Aikanár]

I think we have to differ between the single decisions taken by the judges (and when I speak of judges, I always mean including me) and that they have to take the responsibility for their actions on the one hand and between the general procedure and that every member's opinion of the triumvirate, including HEX and Ian, are necessary and invaluable to a case and should not be neglected or confused.

What personally strikes me is the feeling that how the "discussion" went in this case left me with. It felt like that whatever was said in defense of the accused was ignored instead of discussed. And when I say discussed I don't mean to just address the points of somebody else and refute them, but to think about that. I mean the offenses on their own would have justified one to two weeks suspension on their own, for somebody who have been there before, but for somebody who've been there the first time? Hardly.
So all in all a month would be justified. But when affections or emotions come into play, it may appear better to increase the punishment for one level, which is surely not in the interest of the accused, but me for example, I did that. I was torn between 1 and 2 months and I decided to go with two and not 1 because of my affections to Ishan. That may be reversed bias and not for the benefit of Ishan, but I thougt I need to do that in order to prevent any possible favour I could do him as a friend to happen.

But I wonder, when I would have replaced myself with, say, Makrell, if he would have voted for a suspension of one month at all or if he would not have voted for less than that.

Oh well, I guess everybody has his little bundle to carry with that case, one way or the other.

We left the Curator with only the choice of 2 months or removal of rank, he had to choose.

However, I echo my suggestion from the further action thread: Ishan, appeal this!

[Diamat]

Some of you may disagree with this, but I think it was a sound decision. To a citizen, there is nothing more sacred than the Constitution. That's the only document we have that regulates our day-to-day affairs as a united body. In short, the Constitution embodies citizenship and we, as citizens, embody the Constitution. To violate that document, and to violate it deliberately, constitutes the most immoral act a citizen could possibly do. For a citizen, it's worse than insulting others or posting pornographic materials. It undermines everything this body stands for.

That's all I have to say.

[Aikanár]

I beg to differ, that is your personal perception of that.

Also, I disagree with it.

According to my opinion, it's much more like this:

Contribution and conduct make a citizen. Sure it is all set in stone in the TWCC, but the document is not the raison d'etrê of contributing members or why contributing members should be recognised. The Constitution is just the tool we use to acknowledge valuable members of the community. They do not become valuable through the document. They are by themselves.

Also, as a personal note, I think you take this way, way to serious. You're seriously saying that making others see a vote and asking people to vote in a certain way would be more unbecoming behaviour of a citizen than posting porn? Seriously? I think you really, really, really need to re-adjust your priorities mate. Really.

[Diamat]

I suppose we all have different views. My understanding of the Curia has always been through the Constitution. It defines us as a united body. It governs our day-to-day activities. And it gives legitimacy to all actions undertaken by this body. By deliberately violating the Constitution, we are violating this body, mismanaging our day-to-day activities, and taking away the legitimacy from actions undertaken by this body.

We are not taking away Ishan's membership of TWC. We are only removing his citizenship. Because this is a Curial affair, a citizen affair, a Constitutional affair. The irony of course is that the Triumvirate's decision is actually illegitimate. Why? Because the Triumvirate itself is illegitimate. Why? Because of the very actions said citizen undertook. So the final irony, then, is that said citizen was stripped of his citizenship by a body he helped create through illegal means. Poetic Justice?

[Aikanár]

I disagree again.

I think that you apparently confuse two things:

One, every curial institution only derives its legitimacy through the Constitution and must therefore abide by the letter of it.

Two, citizens are not a curial institution, they are individuals rewarded for their contribution and conduct by the tool which is called constitution.

A citizen, who holds no official curial position can break the constitution all day long if he so chooses as long as it does not affect other citizens. There is no paragraph in he constitution that states that citizens are bound to abide by the constitution. As a citizen, I can totally ignore the entire curia and virtually piss on the document and all curial procedures and decisions all day long in the curial commentary thread. Does that render my contributions to the site and my conduct void? No!

Look, you have to differ between a curial official, who derives all his power from the document, and a citizen, who derives his acknowledgement from his contributions and conduct.

[Darth Red]

So the final irony, then, is that said citizen was stripped of his citizenship by a body he helped create through illegal means. Poetic Justice?

Saying you didn't take anything personal into consideration when you made your decision then making these kind of comments looks really, really bad. I wouldn't if I were you.

[jimkatalanos]

Some of you may disagree with this, but I think it was a sound decision. To a citizen, there is nothing more sacred than the Constitution. That's the only document we have that regulates our day-to-day affairs as a united body. In short, the Constitution embodies citizenship and we, as citizens, embody the Constitution. To violate that document, and to violate it deliberately, constitutes the most immoral act a citizen could possibly do. For a citizen, it's worse than insulting others or posting pornographic materials. It undermines everything this body stands for.

That's all I have to say.

So ishan's offence is worse than porn posting according to you? Good to know that you are there to handle disciplinary cases.

Saying you didn't take anything personal into consideration when you made your decision then making these kind of comments looks really, really bad. I wouldn't if I were you.

hehe indeed. We haven't had a controversial curator for a while, reminds me of the old days of voncs and drama.

[Diamat]

What are you talking about? Without the Constitution, the notion of citizenship would have no meaning. The Constitution lists our rank, outlines the procedure of our coming-to-existence, and lists everything that citizens can do that regular members cannot, such as vote in elections, run for office, or propose bills. To me, it is the most sacred document of a citizen. It is what makes this Curia our Curia.

[Squid]

It is what makes this Curia our Curia.

But it is not what makes a citizen a citizen. A citizen, even the entire group of us, is not the curia. I'm glad you were objective enough to be able to keep that separate.

[Diamat]

Saying you didn't take anything personal into consideration when you made your decision then making these kind of comments looks really, really bad. I wouldn't if I were you.

The case is done. I can now make comments that do not relate directly to the case. I assure you, while in the case, my sole guiding line was the Constitution and the morality of the action.

hehe indeed. We haven't had a controversial curator for a while, reminds me of the old days of voncs and drama.

Now I am a controversial Curator too? Gott. I can't believe any of this. I have really tried my best to act in accordance with my moral standards. I have worked hard to bring this place back in order. I have tried hard to stay neutral and not get aggravated by people calling me unobjective and questioning my general capabilities. But I am very close to being fed up with it all.

[jimkatalanos]

So you are threatening to resign because someone called you controversial? What you posted clearly shows that you were biased.

The irony of course is that the Triumvirate's decision is actually illegitimate. Why? Because the Triumvirate itself is illegitimate. Why? Because of the very actions said citizen undertook. So the final irony, then, is that said citizen was stripped of his citizenship by a body he helped create through illegal means. Poetic Justice?

Your moral standards might be wrong btw and citizens are allowed to disagree and express their opinion. Scrutiny and criticism are part of the job of all curial officers.

[Diamat]

So you are threatening to resign because someone called you controversial? What you posted clearly shows that you were biased.

Your moral standards might be wrong btw and citizens are allowed to disagree and express their opinion. Scrutiny and criticism are part of the job of all curial officers.

I don't like god damn forum politics. The real biased people are people like you and Shamb supporters of Ishan in general. I can't take anything you say seriously, since you are just trying to put me in the worst light possible. I tried to give the dude a fair trial, and of course many people will think it wasn't fair, but many of them think so because they themselves are freaking biased.

[jimkatalanos]

I don't like god damn forum politics. The real biased people are people like you and Shamb supporters of Ishan in general. I can't take anything you say seriously, since you are just trying to put me in the worst light possible. I tried to give the dude a fair trial, and of course many people will think it wasn't fair, but many of them think so because they themselves are freaking biased.

I have never applied for any elected position or played silly curia games and politics, I was too busy doing actual work for the site.
If this was any other kind of punishment like censure or rank suspension then I wouldn't care. Ishan deserved some kind of punishment for what he did.
But the ostrakon has always been reserved for serious ToS offenders like enoch, tony etc and the triumv's decision sets a really bad precedent making punishment harsher.

[Diamat]

Oh, and moreover, had I wanted to go after Ishan for personal reasons, I had ample opportunity to do so. I was first contacted about the whole Shamb thing (including pictures) by other members. Rather than telling these members to go and spread these images everywhere, I told them to keep it to themselves. I immediately contacted Hex and let them deal with the matter, though I had plenty of opportunity for personal revenge. But I had no interest in that. So I also asked Aik for advice and he was very forthcoming. I really, truly, and sincerely tried my best to stay neutral.

[Sir Adrian]

Personally I think the trial was pointless, he had already renounced citizenship and even though he could have gotten it back on request he can also apply tomorrow if he wants to and pass with flying colors.

[Squid]

Personally I trhink the tirla was pointless, he had already renounced citizenship and even though he could have gotten it back on request he can also apply tomorrow if he wants to and pass with flying colors.

Which oddly enough is one of the reason why hex suggested making it a 2 month suspension.

[Heinz Guderian]

So, what you guys are saying is that any citizen can put forward Ishan for citizenship today?

[Aikanár]

Sure.

[Heinz Guderian]

Well thats quite interesting mein bruder.