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Thread: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

  1. #21

    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Renown View Post
    running two mods may be a bit much for most people.

    What I suggest is instead scripting like someone suggested above. Script either a) additional armies, or b) additional money.

    I'm not familiar with this game's scripting (though I'll look into it). Garrison additions may be good.

    OR... ignore scripting entirely and go via difficulty options. Raise the negative side effects for higher difficulty levels for the player.

    Let them play VH Rome, or Hard/Medium Franks/Saxons, etc.
    Simply giving the AI more money doesn't really solve the issue, it only shifts it. What tends to happen when you give the AI more cash via base income is that you get a Sassanid/ERE type situation wherein the AI is capable of affording endless zerg stacks despite the fact it has very little land left. Personally, I don't particularly like transforming AI factions into "cheat factions" just to achieve an historical end because it's just as unrealistic and frustrating to see a stack spamming, public order and food haven one province minor as it is to see the WRE collapse after 50 turns.

    From what I recall from Rome II, the main issue with the AI is that it is essentially incapable of fighting a war on multiple fronts since it is largely unable to organize any form of cogent defense. Thus, it would seem to me that the way to make the AI stronger would be reduce the number of factions that it starts at war with, increase its garrisons, alter starting AI personalities (particularly for the Irish and Scottish factions) and nerf instant fleets. As to the last point, what I mean by this is drastically reduce the speed at which instant fleets can move in addition to forcing them to always leave from a port (there is already a mod that does this I believe). This should stop hordes from using the Mediterranean as a gateway to the Roman Empire (the very idea of a horde at sea is retarded anyway) and it should also slow down the bizarre seaborne assaults on the Empire which come from Britain and Scandinavia. We've all seen the Ebdani taking land in Spain and the Jutes landing in Aquitainne for example.

    The trick of course is getting the WRE to fall without getting it to fall too quickly.



  2. #22
    Antiokhos Euergetes's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    I think that pretty much sums it up nicely, now who knows how to do that?

  3. #23

    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leving View Post
    drastically reduce the speed at which instant fleets can move
    You can increase the cost of moving by sea easily (lake, coast, ocean) but it also applies to fleets. Would need a re-balance of campaign points of naval units, so they are not "effectively" touched by that, except if it would be the intention of the mod to also decrease speed at which fleets move.

  4. #24

    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Butan View Post
    You can increase the cost of moving by sea easily (lake, coast, ocean) but it also applies to fleets. Would need a re-balance of campaign points of naval units, so they are not "effectively" touched by that, except if it would be the intention of the mod to also decrease speed at which fleets move.
    The thing I haven't been able to figure out is how to make the speed changes only apply to instant fleets as opposed to proper navies. I don't want my actual fleets to move at zero miles an hour, just the transport ones. I'm sure that this happened in D et I (through stances possibly?) so it would be a nice addition to this mod.



  5. #25
    Maximus183's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    It has to do with the movement points given to each ship type. So you set one amount of movement points for normal ships and a lower one for transport ships. Should be real simple.

  6. #26

    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    Historical question for you guys. Of these units, who uses Plumbata, who uses javelins (to represent the spiculum. I don't think we have a suitable model for it. If we do I'll switch to that):

    Cohors from the Limitanei

    PseudoComitatenses

    Legio Comitatenses

    Auxilia Palatina

    Legio Palatina

    Top shelf Auxilia Palatina (Cornuti and such)

    Top Shelf Legio Palatina (Herculiani/Iovianii/Lanciarii).

  7. #27
    Antiokhos Euergetes's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    Vegetius mentions each soldier carrying five plumbatae carried in shield, in offensive action thrown at first charge, in defensive, when deployed by third row of reserves (1.17;2.15;2.16) Also the De Rebus Bellicus states plumbata et tribolata designed to be thrown by hand at close quarters. Plumbata mamillata it records because of lead weight it was sufficient to to pierce shields and other such obstacles.

    I am aware that does not quite answer your question.
    Also I would arm many of the offensive troops with an anti cavalry hasta, with spatha secondary weapon.

    With Palatine units you have 'top shelf' these are elite, but no more than palatine it is only because they are named- they all should be.

    Edit: I also recommend the addition of a lancarii version of palatine legio, lightly armed just Spatha, shield, helmet, wearing koptic tunic as other legionnaires. Armed with various javelins. (Of which sources I would have to confirm)
    Last edited by Antiokhos Euergetes; March 28, 2015 at 03:56 AM.

  8. #28

    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    if i remember correctly, Vegetius speaks about only two legios (Herculiani and Ioviani, called martiobarbulus) equiped and wellk trained with plumbatae.
    The answer is quite difficult Ahiga, so i used google translate in order to give you a good summary about this question, from http://www.katapeltes.fr/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=344

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Plumbatae: the great tactical innovation of the army of the Lower Empire. These "Mars beards" (or mattiobarbulus martiobarbulus) are imagined refinement to keep the legionaries infantry and auxiliats firepower that gave them the pilum, and lose with the arrival of the lance. Even Végèce, critic of the new army, venerates this simple and powerful weapon. These darts sealed affecting the shape of small javelins 60cm, with a central ballast lead in the middle of the shaft, which increases the range of the weapon (which easily carries 30m, sometimes up to 60). The size of the legionary is greatly reduced: each 5 door hung on his shield
    Plumbata

    The Museum of Pitsunda, Georgia, contains a number of artifacts taken from an ancient site near Pityus, among which three heads of composite spears with iron and lead of the type commonly associated with the late Roman army. These three objects (Fig 1, 1-3) are roughly comparable in their characteristics, between 10 and 12.5 cm long, with a peak of iron in the form of lenticular sheet section; and a weighted sleeve by way of a lead cone. Although severely corroded, stems appear to be circular, and were apparently open to receive a now defunct wooden shaft which measured 1 cm in diameter.

    The leaded javelins of this type are generally identified as a projectile used by the late Roman army, known as the Plumbata probably a diminutive of the word hasta Plumbata or "spear leaded" and certainly being a descendant of the High pilum Empire is more or less long version, on which the lead was attached to the junction between the tip and the shaft. The earliest references Plumbata are from Végèce (Epitoma Rei Militaris), written during the reign of Theodosius (379-395), but certainly being used long before this reign. Végèce employs the alternative term "mattiobarbulus" for the weapon, in which the "mattio" prefix is surely a mistake for recopying "martio" and mar-tiobarbulus or "small March beards."

    There would be very likely that the "barbulus" suffix is also an analogy with the term "barbed", so that the weapon has a barbed head. The Plumbata does not seem to see was very large because Vegetius observed that the soldier must logically accommodate five in the concavity of the shield (Quinos autem mattiobarbulus (sic) insertos cutis portare conserverunt). Végèce indicates a distinction between Plumbata and two javelins also carried by the infantry, namely the spiculum long 1.9m, a direct descendant of the pilum, and verriculum 1.2m long.

    It also notes that the Plumbata is part of the standard equipment of the principles, and hastatii triarii and that plumbatae are used both offensively and defensively. In another embodiment; they are used by third in reserve, probably as a shock weapon, but they are most often used as a weapon of attack, and are generally launched as the first charge, scope for turning men on foot archer to hurt the enemy and the horses before they can use the scope of their respective weapons (if quis Oportune militate iacetent, prope sagittariorum Scutari imitated vedentur officium. Nam hostes equisetum devoting priusquam name modo ad manum sed ad ictum Miscibility potuerit perveneri )

    Indeed, it is noted that two Illyrian legions were so adept in handling them during the campaigns, as joint emperors Diocletian and Maximian (286-305) and the renamed Martiobarbuli ioviani Martiobarbuli herculiani and prefer them to all other units on the field battle. The plumbatae are not restricted only to battlefield because Végèce also notes which are excellent defensive and offensive weapons in the seats.

    More details on their appearance are according to the anonymous Rebus bellicis, compiled around 3689? And wherein two versions are illustrated and described. The first, Plumbata tribolata is a javelin provided with fins, and a tip of a shape similar to that of the hose-traps (or crows feet), all attached to a lead just over his head , hence its name (tri-Bolata). This version is a weapon made ​​to be thrown by hand at close range and works in two ways, either directly penetrating the body of the enemy or falling on the floor with one of his erect spikes to heaven, may to pierce the foot of a careless soldier.

    The second type of Plumbata described by the anonymous is the Plumbata mamillata, and it is reasonable to think that this guy was also active, if not identical to that described by Végèce. Anonymous describes it as having a point of circular section, with a lead weight attached below and fins at the end of the tip, the epithet mamillata or "domed" probably refers to the swelling caused by the fixation lead. It is not clear from anonymous if that weapon is designated to be thrown by hand or with a shooting machine, or using a slingshot, but the anonymous claims that the curved weapon, weighted down by a lead and its flight speed, will be powerful enough to penetrate the enemy's shield and similar obstacles (ut Plumbi weighted and penerum celeritate adiuta rotundatis teli facilius clips adversarii and similiter obstantia valeat penetrare)

    Likely examples martiobarbuli or mamilatae plumbatae are relatively few and scattered, compared to other elements of military equipment, but many are known, for example in Wroxeter (6) Caernavon (2) Richborough (2, including 1 with a ballast of iron instead of the lead), and Doncaster (1). On the other hand, incomplete documentation fails to reveal more examples in Europe, including the Basel museum, but apparently found in Augst, as an unpublished copy was found in Intercisia. That said, it is also said that some heads and barbed spears with silk mounted points were found in military contexts in England and Germany could also be considered plumbatae on the basis of their shape, lead sinkers missing may have been attached to the wooden shaft of the weapon, but it seems more likely that they are neither more nor less than derivatives of standard barbed heads found in many sites and late, in fact, in a context Germanic.

    As it could be that the virtual absence of true plumbatae on the continent might seem extraordinary, especially insofar as the North Eastern provinces are concerned, as Végèce recalls the specific use by the Illyrian legions, among others, it is likely, however as with the case of Pitsunda and Intercisia, that existing plumbatae -reconnues are not in the provinces of site collections from the northeast, and it is acknowledged that some of the texts mentioning the can escaped to this author.

    Specimens of Pitsunda significantly different well-known examples, in the sense that they have a leaf-shaped head and not a barbed head shape as the many examples known in Wroxeter (Figure 1.4), although that it may well be that copies of Richborough can be achieved in the same form. At this point by retail, they all appear similar as regards the manner in which the lead is made ​​of ballast, in spite of fine differences; barrel-shaped to Wroxeter and Pitsunda, of ovoid shape for Caernavon or tubular to Richborough. For length which is somewhat similar, the greatest of all those known reaches 12.5 cm.

    Nothing in the examples of Pitsunda indicates their embodiment, but an x-ray neutron examples of Wroxeter indicates that the lead weights covers the junction between the wooden shaft and spear (as shown in fig 1.5), and it is suggested that the assembly is fastened together by means of a nail or a rivet for a secure attachment. Although this argument is based only on the analysis of the single example of Wroxeter, it is highly likely that the irons were fixed in this way to the mast, as is customary for conventional lances. However, there is no indication about the way in which the lead is attached to the junction between the iron and the shaft, but it is suggested that the method of manufacture is performed by the realization of a special mold acting as a form where the cast is lead directly cast on the junction, giving the characteristic shape of the lead; This is at least the assumption that seems most attractive today.

    It is generally accepted that the Plumbata is a manual spray gun. The very first experiments based on examples of Wroxeter assured that Plumbata had more as a javelin, opposed to short dart, and it was suggested that the stem reaches 1 m long with fins feather to its base. Launched as a javelin, distances around 30 meters were achieved, which contradicted the testimony of Végèce stating that the weapon was used for a long distance. On the other hand, when it is launched using a rope to add power to the shooting method probably used by Macedonian (Cestros or Cestrophendone) distances greater than 70, or even 80 can be mêtres reached. More recent tests, however, indicated that the Plumbata is a dart, and once again a new trial even after the specimens Wroxeter, suggested a similar length of 50cm long. Launched as a javelin, it does not exceed 20 meters, but launched by a shifting balance passing under the arm (like the underarm serve in tennis), the range can easily reach 70 meters. It is ensured that the weapon, also launched with a slingshot or bow can achieve much greater distances.

    Végèce combines plumbatae exclusively to Legionnaires troops. Yet none of the British findings do not support this hypothesis, no legionary garrison is mentioned on the sites concerned, apart Richborough, where notitia Dignitatum presence indicates the presence of legio II Augusta. The latest garrisons attested Doncaster Caernavon for example are the equites Crispiana and Cohort I Senuci. As Pitsunda there some uncertainties about the nature of the garrison. Whatever the size of the enclosure of the city there is no clarity on the nature of the garrison installed in the third century, or those later.

    A fragment of the text mentions estampile LEG and the author found a estampile mentioning the legio XV apollinaris, although this latter unit is traditionally parked Satala. Stamps in them can even be dated precisely, and only give the troops present on the periphery of the Euxine (Black Sea) or only the unit that produced the tiles (for tile can be imported and not not produced locally, or stolen or reused by the locals). On the other hand the manual, dignities mentions the ala I felix Theodosiana to Pityus. Members of alae can be used as infantry, but it is not possible to say whether the plumbatae found really belong to this unit, like in the case of Augst and Wroxeter, where no "standard" unit is identified. Nevertheless the presence of plumbatae can also be interpreted in the sense of a defensive use and do not necessarily reflect use by a military garrison.





  9. #29
    Antiokhos Euergetes's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    The point in Vegetius was about the training of legions with the plumbata in his day, he makes reference to the two legions under Diocletian that excelled in its use, that they changed their name to reflect it.

  10. #30

    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    Bear in mind, concerning general realism, that so-called Palatine troops differed only in pay grade and "status" in comparison to regular field Comitatenses. There's no any solid indication they were armed or armored in a better way. Of course, it's possible there were individual exceptions. That's my impression after reading some of the leading experts on the matter, such is Michael Speidel. The fact they were better paid is natural since they were closer to an emperor.

    I would agree that most troops had some kind of thrown-able weapons, though it's not so easy to distinguish which one. Indeed, we may assume that Lanciarii troops used different javelins. In one book i have, Legio Herculiani are depicted as having several plumbatae clipped to their shields.

    Also, Ammianus states, regarding the Battle of Adrianople, that soldiers fought close in with their spears until they broke. Afterwards they switched to their swords. And we know that elite troops fought that day. Perhaps this could be taken that late army mostly switched to a thrusting spear as their primary weapon. I read in an article, though long time ago, that adapting spear as a primary melee weapon was part of a trend to fight "beyond arm's length" and hopefully reduce Roman casualties in the age when roman army became dangerously stretched and minimizing casualties, even if it meant to fight more defensively, got increasingly important.

  11. #31
    Antiokhos Euergetes's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    Agreed, I mentioned much of this, though not with quite as much eloquence, in another thread. A little bit of evidence, though taken with a pinch of salt, could be the Claudian panegyric to Honorius, where he mentions, 'spears for fighting close, spears for fighting far' or words to that effect.
    But certainly grading units is about status and pay, in all possibility these soldiers may or may not of upgraded their appearance- there is a lot to be said for pride in your unit, but that is speculative, it certainly happened in the Principate.

  12. #32

    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Antiochus Philopappos View Post
    A little bit of evidence, though taken with a pinch of salt, could be the Claudian panegyric to Honorius, where he mentions, 'spears for fighting close, spears for fighting far' or words to that effect.
    This Even though Claudian was a poet, his words may very well represent contemporary reality. In fact, as you certainly know, melee spears were apparently reintroduced even as early as 2nd century AD-if we are to believe Arrian (though it's not sure if the battle ever took place)

  13. #33
    Antiokhos Euergetes's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    Quote Originally Posted by avatarius View Post
    This Even though Claudian was a poet, his words may very well represent contemporary reality. In fact, as you certainly know, melee spears were apparently reintroduced even as early as 2nd century AD-if we are to believe Arrian (though it's not sure if the battle ever took place)
    Arrian's little adventure with the Alans, perhaps he was just bored with writing about other peoples history? Still, he certainly describes a very plausible use of Kontos (Greek terms Kontos, I am sure he is referring to a long Hasta) in an battle line, against cavalry

  14. #34

    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Antiochus Philopappos View Post
    Arrian's little adventure with the Alans, perhaps he was just bored with writing about other peoples history? Still, he certainly describes a very plausible use of Kontos (Greek terms Kontos, I am sure he is referring to a long Hasta) in an battle line, against cavalry
    Yes indeed, in fact i personally have much suspicion for the authenticity of his "war against the Alans". Find it hard to believe there would've been no other mention of that battle. Yet scholars do take his words as true, i.e. Ross Cowan in his book (Roman Battle Tactics 109BC-313AD) elaborate on Arrian's formation.

  15. #35

    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    Appreciate the advice.

    Remember that unfortunately the game does not offer a meaningful way to depict a spear and sword armed unit. The work-arounds are generally complicated and not without drawbacks - such as a unit switching between spear and sword randomly, never using the spear for vs infantry and so forth. So we are going to stick with the ahistorical but necessary for gameplay segregation of spear armed units and sword armed units.

    How about sword armed units (except for Herculiani et Ioviani) have the javelin/spiculum to allow for the assumption that they throw the one spear they carry, while spear armed units + Herculiani/Iovianii have the plumbatae? Might be some late legionaries had two spears or a lighter throwing spear or whatever, but it's a compromise in the face of gameplay limitations.

    Gaius: Probably going to have a high end skirmisher like what you suggest for both WRE and ERE. Differences between the two factions will be less pronounced in unit selection - there'll still be some exclusives but not sure what just yet.

  16. #36
    Antiokhos Euergetes's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    I forget about these technical aspects when coming out with ideas from archaeology books
    For ease of choosing units for suitable roles, perhaps sword units armed with plumbatae, thinking perhaps they are second row or reserve. Front row long hasta/Kontos armed legionaries with javelin/spiculum (if anything). Then you have the Lancarii (Spatha/ javelins) and archers behind and skirmishing
    Last edited by Antiokhos Euergetes; March 28, 2015 at 04:27 PM.

  17. #37

    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    @Ahiga:
    Thanks for bringing me back into reality of the game's limitation I fully understand you and i'm sure you're on the right track with those needed compromises.
    @Gaius^:
    Very nice summary that corresponds to what we read from the sources. Front rows were very likely spear armed troops since the Romans at late era preferred to absorb barbarian assault in a tight defensive formation i.e. fulcum (like happened,for example, at Strasbourg and Ad Salices).
    Last edited by avatarius; March 29, 2015 at 07:14 AM.

  18. #38

    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    I thought the legion held in reserve at Strasbourg was the elite one. As you know this legion was armed with the spatha as its primary weapon and probably fought in the old legionary manner by using the shield offensively and attacking there opponents exposed sides.
    Indeed it was this legion that stopped the tribal breakthrough and instigated the following rout leading to a Roman Victory. Even in the late era Rome promoted aggressive infantry tactics if applicable as dictated by circumstance and opportunity.
    Last edited by char; April 21, 2015 at 02:46 AM.

  19. #39

    Default Re: A more "historical" starting army for the Romans?

    The problem is that we don't have any real foedus mechanic. We can't give Alaric the Aquitaine and make him our ally. We can't settle the Burgundians in Vienne, we can't even recreate the diplomatic narrative that led to the Battle of Adrianople (in fact we kinda do, but the AI never does anything like that, and without a "settle the hordes in a foedus" mechanic it's useless).
    "Déu és beure bé, menjar fresc i llevar-se a les deu"
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