Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Seljuks of Rum

[Wallachian]

The word obviously has the same root/origin. All variations of it derive from the same root which does seem to be Persian in origin.

[Danishmend]

Turkoman tribesman, 15th century (Early Turkoman raiders can be upgraded to this?)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Tsardoms Total War did a good job reconstructing the 15th century Turkoman above.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[hessam]

Alright guys, I suggest we do a recap of the roster composition (regardless of how they'd look, just the composition of the army). So please focus your next comments on a list of units you believe should be in the roster. Please do so with the assumption that high and late era Rum units will be entirely based on the Ottoman Empire, because, for now at least, that's the plan. And lets focus on tier 2 and 3 (Ottoman era) first.

I'll start with a general list of 15th century Ottoman units I have in mind:
Sipahi: divided into Kapikulu and Timarli Sipahis (let me know if you think they should have a hybrid lancer/HA function or perhaps make one lancer and one HA variation for each?), while the Kapikulu can be divided into different divisions.
Janissaries: Janissary archers, gunners, and polearm infantry (There's also the Solak guard archers but I'd appreciate some more info on them)
Azaps or Azabs: light foot archers (or should there be other classes of Azabs as well?)
Akinji horse archers: light irregular horse archer
Deli cavalry: the melee variant of the Akinji
Serdengecti: heavy, offensive, suicidal infantry

This is just a basic idea to work on. So do add to, change, and destroy it as you see fit.

p.s. Everyone's free to talk about other subjects, naturally, but following a framework will help the team get this done sooner, and more efficiently

[zsimmortal]

You could probably use some more infantry units : Yaya as lesser, somewhat professional infantry, and also Ghazi as irregulars.

[hessam]

You could probably use some more infantry units : Yaya as lesser, somewhat professional infantry, and also Ghazi as irregulars.

could you explain a bit about Yaya? Weren't Ghazis replaced by other types of irregular soldiers somewhere in the 14th century?

[zsimmortal]

could you explain a bit about Yaya? Weren't Ghazis replaced by other types of irregular soldiers somewhere in the 14th century?

I don't know that much about Ottoman history, but Yaya were essentially low-born soldiers that received financial compensation (someone can correct me on this). I'm not too sure about equipment, but some served as skirmishers and others as front-line infantry.

Ghazis definitely existed as they are mentioned in the conquest of Constantinople (in '1453'). Ghazis generally flocked to war in search of riches from plunder, but I have no idea what kind of troop quality they would be at that point.

[bigdaddy1204]

I think this faction roster needs a bit of love.

The main changes needed:

1. The Turks need stronger heavy cavalry
2. The Turks need heavy infantry, both spear and sword

Have you had a look at the unit roster for the Turks on Broken Crescent (a mod for Medieval II TW)? That was a pretty good roster. There is also the Complete Turkish Unit Roster mod, which may be useful:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-CTUR-released

[FuzFuzFuz]

You can look at Tsardoms Preview of the Ottomans for inspiration, they have detailed description of the units you described.

[Danishmend]

Alright guys, I suggest we do a recap of the roster composition (regardless of how they'd look, just the composition of the army). So please focus your next comments on a list of units you believe should be in the roster. Please do so with the assumption that high and late era Rum units will be entirely based on the Ottoman Empire, because, for now at least, that's the plan. And lets focus on tier 2 and 3 (Ottoman era) first.

Ghazi horsemen/Tribal Ghazi: medium horse archers with good melee stats - Tier 2 (these were bulk of the 14th century beylik armies before the formation of regular units)
Nökers: Heavy lancers with bows. Nökers were a Beg's (tribal chieftain) bodyguard. The term was adopted from the Mongols, they served as early Ottoman Bodyguards.
Feudal/Tımarlı Sipahi Lancers: heavy shock cavalry
Feudal/Tımarlı Sipahi Horse Archers: medium/heavy horse archers
Qapukulu Sipahi: disciplined very heavy shock cavalry
Silahtar Bodyguard: disciplined bodyguard unit, very heavy shock cav (also armed with bows)? (Early Sultan's Bodyguard can be upgraded to Silahtar Bodyguard)
Akinji: Light/swift horse archers
Janissary Archers: disciplined medium archer unit
Janissary Gunners: disciplined medium gunpowder unit
Janissary Heavy Infantry: disciplined heavy infantry unit
Solak Guard Archers: disciplined elite/expert archers (Ghulam foot guard can be upgraded to Solaks)
Heavy Assault Infantry: very heavy infantry
Heavy Archers: armoured archers fit for siege battles (early Turkish archers can be upgraded to heavy archers)
Azap Archers: Light archers (Early Rumi archers can be upgraded to this unit)
Azap Spearmen: Light spear infantry, good at holding the lines (Anatolian Spearmen can be upgraded to Azap Spearmen)
Yaya Polearm infantry: Medium infantry armed with berdiche --> this miniature is based on Angus McBride's 15th century Ottoman yaya illustration for example: http://www.miniatures-berlin.de/imag...ages/651_0.jpg
Turkoman Tribesmen: Light/Swift horse archers, 15th century Turkoman tribesmen, I know there is already Turkoman Raider unit in early period but this later period unit can replace early Turkoman raiders (for the sake of 15th century accurate clothing)

(There's also the Solak guard archers but I'd appreciate some more info on them)

Solaks were basically archer bodyguards of the Sultan. They accompanied the Sultan in war and peace, wherever the Sultan goes there were ~400 Solaks guarding him. They formed the 60th, 61st, 62nd and 63rd orta (regiments) of the Janissaries. In battles they were positioned at left and right sides of the Sultan. They were extremely skilled with their composite bows and also in melee. They had recognizable hats that differed from the hats of other janissaries. Solaks should be restricted to one unit per army IMO.

[bigdaddy1204]

Ghazi horsemen/Tribal Ghazi: medium horse archers with good melee stats - Tier 2 (these were bulk of the 14th century beylik armies before the formation of regular units)
Nökers: Heavy lancers with bows. Nökers were a Beg's (tribal chieftain) bodyguard. The term was adopted from the Mongols, they served as early Ottoman Bodyguards.
Feudal/Tımarlı Sipahi Lancers: heavy shock cavalry
Feudal/Tımarlı Sipahi Horse Archers: medium/heavy horse archers
Qapukulu Sipahi: disciplined very heavy shock cavalry
Silahtar Bodyguard: disciplined bodyguard unit, very heavy shock cav (also armed with bows)? (Early Sultan's Bodyguard can be upgraded to Silahtar Bodyguard)
Akinji: Light/swift horse archers
Janissary Archers: disciplined medium archer unit
Janissary Gunners: disciplined medium gunpowder unit
Janissary Heavy Infantry: disciplined heavy infantry unit
Solak Guard Archers: disciplined elite/expert archers (Ghulam foot guard can be upgraded to Solaks)
Heavy Assault Infantry: very heavy infantry
Heavy Archers: armoured archers fit for siege battles (early Turkish archers can be upgraded to heavy archers)
Azap Archers: Light archers (Early Rumi archers can be upgraded to this unit)
Azap Spearmen: Light spear infantry, good at holding the lines (Anatolian Spearmen can be upgraded to Azap Spearmen)
Yaya Polearm infantry: Medium infantry armed with berdiche --> this miniature is based on Angus McBride's 15th century Ottoman yaya illustration for example: http://www.miniatures-berlin.de/imag...ages/651_0.jpg
Turkoman Tribesmen: Light/Swift horse archers, 15th century Turkoman tribesmen, I know there is already Turkoman Raider unit in early period but this later period unit can replace early Turkoman raiders (for the sake of 15th century accurate clothing)

Fantastic post and thanks for sharing. I really like this unit roster - in my opinion, this should be implemented straight into the game without any changes. Good work!

[warman222]

Okay we are NOT doing this crap again! This is the 3rd time this thread was spiraled because of the Ottomans. If you people can't talk about the late game Seljuk/Ottoman stuff like adults I'm closing this thread for now. I apologize to Hessam who was asking for insight, I hope what's in the thread as is enough. You people should be ashamed of yourselves. I don't have to babysit the Genoa thread, or Revamp threads, or even the research threads about the Iranians! So clearly it is possible to have a discussion without it devolving into flame war crap. But apparently that's too difficult right now.