[1.2beta] Battle OPTICS--*realism*-- Discussion. SETTINGS: Unit Sz- Ultra, Batt Diff- Normal, NO MODS

[Moonflower]

Hey there Team, hi all.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss/debate/comment on the current state of DEI battles in 1.2 beta with the above mentioned settings. By "current state" I mean, the 'optics' of the battles as they unfold--kill rate, animations, etc.

Currently, as I experience them, DEI 1.2 Beta battles are missing that initial 'crush' in melee infantry engagements. You know, that red wave of death that ripples out to reduce the first two 1-2 front ranks of every unit to shreds within the 10-20 seconds of post-charge combat(pretty much: a slight formation penetration into lower middle rank that quickly leads to rapid cut downs on both sides until formations reform semi-naturally following the reduction of the charging front lines)? It's missing! My legionaries are wielding sharpened butter-knives I tell you! But praise Fortuna, the barbarians' swords have turnt to rubber; O, the inhumanity of it all! Now upon the fields of battle we play patty-cake for almost a minute before we start to shank each other, one slow, good Caesar at a time.

At the height of 1.1 I was using Human Factor DEI + a cinematic kill animation mod, and that initial crush was so evident it was almost palpable lol. However, cavalry, especially specialized cavalry & mounts still do a good crush/charge in 1.2beta, so those are fine. It's the 1.2beta infantry charge-crushes that need some... rekindling?

Now, that's my opinion of the change that needs to be made. I guess my point of discussion is in support of that change.

To me, the optics of the front, 1st-2nd ranks/rows of two melee infantry units being seriously reduced in a 10-20 second bloody cloud, is pretty realistic and should therefore be part and parcel of the DEI brand. And, additionally if albeit obviously, depending on combat status of units, whether they are in formation, at-the-ready, charging etc., the proportion of the losses would and should go to the side least prepared to receive the other, no?

Thank you Team for your continued dedication to what truly is shaping into a better and better masterpiece that ought, truly, to be credited with keeping the dream of R2 alive.

[KAM 2150]

Wtf? First two ranks dead in initial charge? That is Hollywood and will never be in DeI. That is not unly unrealistic but also horrible gameplay wise. That would never happen, unless you watch some retarded movie battle. Infantry charge is slow walk to eachother and small rush or last few meters. What you want is pure fantasy.

[Augustusng]

Sorry, I usually restrain myself better. As Kam says, what you're describing is certainly not realistic. If you do want that in your battles though, I'm sure there's a submod or something for it - there's another thread right now talking about mods that add in more of the bloody kill animations. So yeah, you can have that sort of thing in your personal modded version of DeI, but it's not going to be part of the main mod.

[RoninSan]

If you put two very low defense value and very high charge/damage value units to charge each other, you should in theory see a lot of initial kills for sure... But full rows of soldiers dying in the first shock would be unreallistic.

[gornoviceanu]

I agree with the others above, your request is completely out of touch with the concept this mod delivers so great

[Daergar]

Thanks, good laugh in the morning. "..reduced in a 10-20 second bloody cloud, is pretty realistic and should therefore be part and parcel of the DEI brand", that will be hard to top today.

Nothing personal man, just hilariously fantastic.

[martin4]

Before I also thought that battle should be something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc-JTc36Q4Q or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-FJWFH-QdQ. But it would be probably possible only when was formation dissolve or broken.

[gornoviceanu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTYz439cA5w

The show is romanced to a degree and I would not take every move you see there as fact, but that's mostly how 2 lines of soldiers fighting would look. Now multiply the number of soldiers by 1000 and imagine that when one side saw it was losing ground, usually the whole army would break. (10-20% of all men in that battle would die, not the crowfest most movies show you)

[Richard III]

I personally think 1.2 has a great battle system, both visually and... mechanically, I guess? Remember that soldiers who are just engaging are fully equipped, rested and eager. Even matched soldiers are going to trade blows, dodge and maneuver to stay alive. Once soldiers tire, their ability to defend themselves becomes less, as the battle wears on their armor and shields degrade or become ineffective. Small cuts, bruises and wounds begin to drain a body of vital blood. So in all honesty, casualties will mount and increase towards the latter end of a battle, not the first stages. DeI nails this pretty well.

[Falco]

..reduced in a 10-20 second bloody cloud, is pretty realistic and should therefore be part and parcel of the DEI brand

Maybe if they got charged by a tank. That's about as realistic as the formations breaking and all the soldiers splitting up and fighting 1 on 1 after the units come into contact.

[Theramines]

With all due respect to OP, such a suggestion would be a step backwards. The battles are, perhaps, the best I've played in 8 years of TW. However, I hope that you're able to create or find a submod that gives you what you seek.

[Daergar]

I personally think 1.2 has a great battle system, both visually and... mechanically, I guess? Remember that soldiers who are just engaging are fully equipped, rested and eager. Even matched soldiers are going to trade blows, dodge and maneuver to stay alive. Once soldiers tire, their ability to defend themselves becomes less, as the battle wears on their armor and shields degrade or become ineffective. Small cuts, bruises and wounds begin to drain a body of vital blood. So in all honesty, casualties will mount and increase towards the latter end of a battle, not the first stages. DeI nails this pretty well.

Agreed, and I enjoy how it even works pseudo-realistically with missile fire. The first few volleys will get few outright kills due to, I assume, the hp system. Wounds and nicks and ruined protection lets the casualties mount very rapidly after a while. All very reasonable.

Plus one to Kam and his helpers!

[bozu]

Do not touch the battle mechanics! Unless you guys, somehow, find a way to make it even more realistic. DeI is now miles away from vanilla and in the best possible direction!

[Moonflower]

Wtf? First two ranks dead in initial charge? That is Hollywood and will never be in DeI. That is not unly unrealistic but also horrible gameplay wise. That would never happen, unless you watch some retarded movie battle. Infantry charge is slow walk to eachother and small rush or last few meters. What you want is pure fantasy.

To use your own words. Wtf? First two ranks dead in initial charge? Yeah, I agree, that is unrealistic, and for that reason I never said it. What I did say was that the first two ranks, specifically the first but potentially up to the second as well(thus "1-2"), would be "seriously reduced." Which could refer to a broad range of results, death being among them. Now, say, where in a scenario of 40men vs 40men in 4x10 formation, each side saw losses of up to half in the initial engagement? Again I agree, that would be retarded KAM. What I want is not fantasy, but some more consideration of humanity. Rushing bodies wielding sharpened steel colliding into one another will result in some sort of visible incapacitating result, specifically for the side "least prepared to receive the other" as I said.

So, what I imagine to be realistic is summed up in this example: 40hoplites Ready and in Formation VS 40principes in full Charge = 2-5 Dead hoplites : 3-6 dead principes ; if the hoplites weren't in formation, but were still ready, the reverse of those numbers would be foreseeable.

I personally think 1.2 has a great battle system, both visually and... mechanically, I guess? Remember that soldiers who are just engaging are fully equipped, rested and eager. Even matched soldiers are going to trade blows, dodge and maneuver to stay alive. Once soldiers tire, their ability to defend themselves becomes less, as the battle wears on their armor and shields degrade or become ineffective. Small cuts, bruises and wounds begin to drain a body of vital blood. So in all honesty, casualties will mount and increase towards the latter end of a battle, not the first stages. DeI nails this pretty well.

-"fully equipped, rested and eager. Even matched soldiers are going to trade blows, dodge and maneuver to stay alive. Once soldiers tire, their ability to defend themselves becomes less, as the battle wears on their armor and shields degrade or become ineffective."
You assume to know much about each and every soldier marching off to die... their combat readiness, prowess, their mental fortitude in the face of war and death despite whatever training they've had to prepare them...
-"Small cuts, bruises and wounds begin to drain a body of vital blood" Agreed; that's why the incapacitating effects of steel applied to flesh during a charge at ~10mph with ~125-225lbs of force being thrown behind it, I think, should be more self evident. You're right though, casualties do indeed begin to mount exponentially after prolonged combat, which is of course realistic for the reasons you've stated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTYz439cA5w

The show is romanced to a degree and I would not take every move you see there as fact, but that's mostly how 2 lines of soldiers fighting would look. Now multiply the number of soldiers by 1000 and imagine that when one side saw it was losing ground, usually the whole army would break. (10-20% of all men in that battle would die, not the crowfest most movies show you)

To a degree? lol... that show... aha...Good show, but like all cinema it is only so reliable as a reference... I find it ironic though that anyone would reference cinema anyways for that very reason, and especially after KAM's swift decry of Hollywood's foul influence lol.

In my opinion, the combat that all of you are agreeing to be the realistic case of ancient warfare is that all soldiers were mentally uniform professionals incapable of any sort of deviation or desire for personal or holy glory, etc., and all fought by the same code of cordial engagement, devoid of any ferocity, abandon, or chance. Some were this way, yes, absolutely, and if they were it was because they had been extensively trained to be military professionals for their career. Almost all ancient soldiers could not boast of having military careers--if they did, they were usually mercenaries. I strongly agree that this disciplined meat-grinder style of combat suits units comprised of professionals and is foreseeably realistic and was likely indeed the case in ancient combat.

... I guess I could've saved a lot of trouble by simply just saying that I find the current infantry charges visually unrewarding, realistic or not, and on average ineffective.

EG. Playing with no mods, playing the Teutoburg forest Historical Battle, its disappointing to witness my gold chevron Cohors Aquilae not initially cut down any of the Fruktoniz or w.e med/light German spear unit that my Cohorts were returning the charge of... instead, they collide, and then take the time to take a few paces back to readjust the lines, then initiate grindfest, where yes in the first few seconds the charge damage starts to be applied and the casualties begin. But those deaths-in-collision from the charge, are seriously missed. So I guess I could ask if this is determined by KV or stats?

& to all the haters, I'm capable enough in modding to get what I want anyways, and have done so and now my combat is enjoyable again. I made this thread for discussion of battle optics and realism in 1.2beta; it's not a place to house your ridicule of my OP. Thanks...

[Falco]

... I guess I could've saved a lot of trouble by simply just saying that I find the current infantry charges visually unrewarding, realistic or not, and on average ineffective.

Lol, yup, you sure could have. The way you worded it on the OP made myself (and obviously most of the other posters) think you meant the first 2 ranks should get annihilated in the initial charge.

[Moonflower]

Yes I see where that inference is being derived from... it's my fault. I was seeing red... in excitement for more blood

What I am getting at is that damage doled out from a charge is not visually evident until after the charge is completely over and the grind begins. Any deaths occurring at the * point of contact * in a charge is very rare at the moment, so rare that to me it warrants discussing.

[LawL_LawL]

Doesn't this just boil down to a sub-mod request for an up-to-date version of that higher kill-rate mod that was around in previous iterations?

[Tenerife_Boy]

BAI is a masterpiece that we will never revert in any sort of ways unless to improve it IF possible

[KAM 2150]

What I want is not fantasy, but some more consideration of humanity. Rushing bodies wielding sharpened steel colliding into one another will result in some sort of visible incapacitating result, specifically for the side "least prepared to receive the other" as I said.

So, what I imagine to be realistic is summed up in this example: 40hoplites Ready and in Formation VS 40principes in full Charge = 2-5 Dead hoplites : 3-6 dead principes ; if the hoplites weren't in formation, but were still ready, the reverse of those numbers would be foreseeable.

That is still not how combat works. That argument about humanity has no basis in how infantry combat went, you just romanticize the concept of it. Infantry charge, at full speed, all men roaring is something you would really not see often if at all (unless fighting Britons) as it was just plain stupid. You were about to be in that combat for good long time, up to hours in some cases and that single starting infantry charge would not even break your enemy so you tire yourself hard even before combat starts? Like I said, frontal infantry charge would go without any charge at all or just small rush on last few meters, that is because you knew that charge would not rout the enemy, you knew that your would tire yourself, you knew that countering someone who is running at you is the easiest thing to do in combat (if warrior had any experience or just basic training), not to mention that a lot of people protect themselves with rather large shields. Entire point of fighting in any effective way is to keep formation and ALLOWING enemy soldiers to mix ranks with yours would mean that you are in a rout already and not in frontal combat. If people would mix their ranks with frontal charge, killrates would skyrocet. Sure, if you were never in combat or had no training, you would try that...except enemy would most likely not play along and you would end stabbed or bounce away from the shield (and then get stabbed or trampled by your own friends). Using your shield to brace yourself and your buddies to protect you is just way more efficient then wasting your life away and doing mindless counter-charge. If you would see wall of men rushing at your across entire field, without any formation or cohesion, you should just smile and laugh at them before you and your mates cut their exhausted bodies apart. And no, so called barbarians or other non-Greek/Roman troops were no exception to this, especially many Celtic tribes were able to fight in a lot more complicated manner than just rush forward, sadly most of people do not give them credits for that.

As for your example with 40v40, you would be lucky if anyone would die in the initial clash, especially since both formations you mentioned had rather nice armours on them.

That being said, what was and is a lot more devastating is flank or rear charge of infantry, that way you can do a lot of casualties in DeI. For high frontal casualties you would need to use stuff like Thracian Noble Falxmen vs some weak spear unit. Also most of weapons in Rome 2 do not even charge animation for charge kill, I think only swords have those.

[Moonflower]

interesting. well I guess heroes and idiots never existed then? no feats of valor, or failings of cowardice? no? eh. Who is romanticizing what about history and battles and how they were conducted in all their minutia, is what I say...

so, for anyone interested in seeing an increased mix and use of kill animations, ive tested the following mods together and they give nice results; a slight increased kill rate, with more visual flavor without too much lore breaking or change to combat flow/length.

kill animation overhaul - no battle changes - by SwissBob
no more heart attacks by Sir Gallahad the Pure
cinematic kill animation mod by Kyle
(all available via steam)