South African 'Redistribution' of White Land

[Derpy Hooves]

Due process has no bearing on government confiscation of land. What sort of fascist state do you live in where there is no legal protection for property ownership and regulations for the deprivation thereof?

Germany, home of the Nazis

[Love Mountain]

Imminent domain still requires due process.

Ignoring the obviously tyrannical actions being taken by the government here which sounds more like the actions of a Stalinist dictatorship, haven't other African countries done the same thing and hasn't it had devastating impacts? I guess as long as we get to stick it to evil whitey all is well.

Native Americans did not claim to own the land, they believed the land was ownerless. Don't believe me? Ask one of them. They basically had a system of usufructory rights which they asserted by constant warfare among themselves. None of them claimed ownership of land. A big swing and a miss there.

Funny. "Public Use" is an entirely arbitrary phrase that can be interpreted in a number of different ways to favor whatever private party is going to receive your land. The "due process" part does not protect you at all, it merely makes sure you get to be heard. That's it. The use of eminent domain is ultimately down to bureaucracy and what particular judge gets handed your case. It's strange to see conservatives defend eminent domain when it's one of the most problematic provisions of government power.

Reminds me of the Keystone pipeline and the utter smell of kleptocracy there. Ultimately I don't care, but I'm not a rancher.

[Heathen Hammer]

The Apartheid regime crumbled. Fact, or do you live on an alternate Earth? Or was Nelson Mandela really Pik Botha in blackface? Black citizens were not allowed to share those living standards, such as they were, and if black kids complained about their education, they were killed en masse. Another fact.

I didn't ask for more unfounded claims, I asked you to explain how come living standards and economic development have dropped so drastically. Now try and answer that question without buzzwords or switching goalposts.

[Cyclops]

Funny. "Public Use" is an entirely arbitrary phrase that can be interpreted in a number of different ways to favor whatever private party is going to receive your land. The "due process" part does not protect you at all, it merely makes sure you get to be heard. That's it. The use of eminent domain is ultimately down to bureaucracy and what particular judge gets handed your case. It's strange to see conservatives defend eminent domain when it's one of the most problematic provisions of government power.

Reminds me of the Keystone pipeline and the utter smell of kleptocracy there. Ultimately I don't care, but I'm not a rancher.

I my country eminent domain is called compulsory acquisition. Its based on the legal notion (not widely understood) that the Crown (ie the Queen as advised by her elected officials) owns the land and any title you have is literally that, a grant of the use of the land in perpetuity pending resumption. Its usually used for public use (state, local authority or the Commonwealth) but also public/private entities such as toll roads. Typically it only is invoked for critical infrastructure and people usually take advantage of preliminary voluntary buybacks.

I don't think Zuma is invoking eminent domain, or compulsory acquisition, he's looking to redistribute land to his followers under the legal pretext that his followers have a prior claim to the land (which is historically debatable) and a form of legal ownership. Its Mugabe in Zimbabwe all over again.

[Love Mountain]

That's the problematic part, "public use". The Keystone pipeline is "public use" but they are handing the land out to a private party and there were ecological concerns raised by the local farmers or something. I mean what I'm trying to point at, is that it is ultimately arbitrary and context is the most important part of determining whether the seizure is "ethical" or not. I feel some people in here are far too quick to paint a narrative when the situation is most likely a lot more complicated, as with everything. The whole question of eminent domain in general is a grey area and one where I do not have a great deal of knowledge or experience with.

[mongrel]

I didn't ask for more unfounded claims, I asked you to explain how come living standards and economic development have dropped so drastically. Now try and answer that question without buzzwords or switching goalposts.

You asked me squat, you said that the collapse of Apartheid was unfounded even thouigh the whole planet knows the ANC has been in power for decades. Moronic stance for you to take. You also implied that killings in places like Soweto did not exist, despite it being national news globally.

Labour charge whites more to attend rallies https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/l...egal-l73nmslnb

Rallies? One rally, for which they had their wrists slapped. Bet is was a BAME event. YOUtube is awash with white people singing 'O Jeremy Corbyn' so much for white exclusion.

Diane Abbot,

You mention one woman out of a party with 550,000 members, most of whom are indeed white, including the vast majority of leading activists and MPs.
I support Christians abroad. How sectarian of me.

They hired Munroe Bergdorf as their 'LGBT Advisor'

She's T. She also quit as clearly she wasn't vetted properly. Toby Young had a very similar problem, having being offered a high profile job without people knowing that attended some dodgy racist conferences. and posted tweets insulting to women.

I'm not sure where my political beliefs come into this, this kind of behaviour should be called out for what it is by all political spectrums. But political correctness holds a proverbial knife to our throat if we try. You assumed I was a Britain First supporter for making a factual statement, and of lying to the forum. I am not a Britain First voter, supporter, or follower. And it is evident I'm not lying.

The very idea that Labour routinely bans white people from meetings is a massive lie isn't it? You have not established that it now thinks all white people are racist. Back in my day that assertion was true, in so far that trade unions actively bullied employers into preventing them from recruiting black people, the old 1950s and 60s colour bar. It was only in the mid 80s that the union and wider Labour movement recognised race discrimination to be a social evil.Of course I don't think that is what you are talking about.

Your politics are relevant, as it informs the motives for your crap off-topic post.

[Heathen Hammer]

You asked me squat, you said that the collapse of Apartheid was unfounded even thouigh the whole planet knows the ANC has been in power for decades. Moronic stance for you to take. You also implied that killings in places like Soweto did not exist, despite it being national news globally.

No, that's now what I asked. You are switching goalposts again, which is obvious to all of us here. My question was pretty clear. Again, how come economic development and living standards have decreased so drastically in both Zimbabwe and South Africa in the last few decades? Again, we are waiting for you to come up with a response that doesn't just consist of switching goalposts or buzzwords.

[Love Mountain]

You're telling me black South Africans lived better during the apartheid?

[Aexodus]

Rallies? One rally, for which they had their wrists slapped. Bet is was a BAME event. YOUtube is awash with white people singing 'O Jeremy Corbyn' so much for white exclusion.

The fact that Corbyn even considered this show's he's prepared to play race politics, which is abhorrent.

You mention one woman out of a party with 550,000 members, most of whom are indeed white, including the vast majority of leading activists and MPs.
I support Christians abroad. How sectarian of me.

Diane Abbot is the Shadow Home Secretary for Labour, and a Jeremy Corbyn's ex partner. She isn't just another woman out of 550,000. In her constituency of Hackney, London, she receives a 62% majority of about 30,000 votes, so at least some sizeable amount of Labour voters support her. The fact that she has received no consequence for her repeated blatantly racist remarks is tantamount to endorsement, or at least wilful ignorance, the latter of which you are doing, mongrel. Diane Abbot is a racist, there is no argument otherwise.

She's T. She also quit as clearly she wasn't vetted properly. Toby Young had a very similar problem, having being offered a high profile job without people knowing that attended some dodgy racist conferences. and posted tweets insulting to women.

She was hired at the end of last February. At that point even I had heard of her due to her comments in the video I linked. She had already been sacked from L'Oreal for her racist comments at this point. It's ludicrous to suggest she hadn't been vetted. She was approved by Corbyn

The very idea that Labour routinely bans white people from meetings is a massive lie isn't it? You have not established that it now thinks all white people are racist. Back in my day that assertion was true, in so far that trade unions actively bullied employers into preventing them from recruiting black people, the old 1950s and 60s colour bar. It was only in the mid 80s that the union and wider Labour movement recognised race discrimination to be a social evil.Of course I don't think that is what you are talking about.

The sheer scale of attempted racist policy, and lack of enrichment for racist attitudes within the party is enough. Trade Unions in the 50s are irrelevant to the consversation, but were equally an injustice. But discrimination isn't solved by more discrimination. If Labour were in the ANC's position, they too would seize white land, as they love to play race politics

Your politics are relevant, as it informs the motives for your crap off-topic post.

Cheers lad, looks like only left wingers are allowed to be racist then, and I'm a hateful right winger for pointing it out

[Cyclops]

You're telling me black South Africans lived better during the apartheid?

Sadly relatively speaking many are worse off. The cruel apartheid regime provided basic services to the black people even as it repressed them politically but the administrative capacity has been diminished as educated whites leave the country.

Part of the problem is a milder case of Zimbabwe's dilemma: the replacement of a white political elite with a largely black political elite happened relatively quickly so the skill base in the new black elite was not well developed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inequa...d_South_Africa

Sorry for linking to wiki but it has a moderately useful round up of links.

[Pontifex Maximus]

[QUOTE=Sukiyama;15537310]Funny. "Public Use" is an entirely arbitrary phrase that can be interpreted in a number of different ways to favor whatever private party is going to receive your land. The "due process" part does not protect you at all, it merely makes sure you get to be heard. That's it. The use of eminent domain is ultimately down to bureaucracy and what particular judge gets handed your case. It's strange to see conservatives defend eminent domain when it's one of the most problematic provisions of government power.

Reminds me of the Keystone pipeline and the utter smell of kleptocracy there. Ultimately I don't care, but I'm not a rancher.

BLM holds tribal lands in trust for the respective tribes. This means that the tribes nominally own it and the government runs it but owes a fiduciary duty to the tribes to manage the lands wisely. 98% of the time this means giving the Native Americans royalties on the use of the land. It is in fact more complicated than that as there are half a dozen different designations of tribal owned land, but this suffices. If you smell kleptocracy there then you also implicate the tribal authorities, which at the end of the day might not be an illegitimate observation. It is however ignorant to assume this is all just a one way street for oil companies and the government you assume they captured. I'd suggest you have a lot more research t do on the subject before you begin throwing it out as an example. All of this is a far cry from confiscation of land by plebiscite.

Eminent domain requires compensation and necessity of use. None of these are present in South Africa it seems so even the peppercorn amount of due process afforded to land seizures by the US government is magnitudes better than SA's. Receiving fair value compensation for your land is a pretty important component here, and one which you overlooked.

I'm not defending Eminent Domain, I think the standard for the seizure of private real property needs to be much higher. Our system is still infinitely more fair that South Africa's.

[Aexodus]

Here's a video I've been trying to find again since I started the thread, I reccomend you give it a watch.

[Pontifex Maximus]

And before anyone says "this is just hyperbole" we need to remember that this is Africa and casual genocide is part of their political/social reality. For those wondering, this is also a fundamental justification for the Second Amendment to exist. Were I living in South Africa and was being targeted in the same way, I would be applying for emergency political refugee status. Deprivation of property and other rights is, historically, a prelude to mass murders. If you condone any of these actions based upon historical injustices, I'd like to know how you can justify it.

[mongrel]

No, that's now what I asked. You are switching goalposts again, which is obvious to all of us here. My question was pretty clear. Again, how come economic development and living standards have decreased so drastically in both Zimbabwe and South Africa in the last few decades? Again, we are waiting for you to come up with a response that doesn't just consist of switching goalposts or buzzwords.

Did the Apartheid regime collapse or not? If you insist it hasn't show us evidence it still exists. Have a good time explaining that Alternatively you can withdraw your comments that my observation was 'unfounded'.

Here's a video I've been trying to find again since I started the thread, I reccomend you give it a watch.

An advertisement for paranoid preppers.

And before anyone says "this is just hyperbole" we need to remember that this is Africa and casual genocide is part of their political/social reality. For those wondering, this is also a fundamental justification for the Second Amendment to exist. Were I living in South Africa and was being targeted in the same way, I would be applying for emergency political refugee status. Deprivation of property and other rights is, historically, a prelude to mass murders. If you condone any of these actions based upon historical injustices, I'd like to know how you can justify it.

Africa isn't a country, it is a contenent and obviously has diverse cultures. I can also think of a country with a recent 'culture of genocide' not to far from mine.The Second Amendment didn't affect what African Americans call the 'black holocaust' in any way. Shouldn't people be targetting the ANC, who seem to have lost their way of late?

The fact that Corbyn even considered this show's he's prepared to play race politics, which is abhorrent.

And Theresa May and Nigel Farage never have? Such bollocks. Anyway I was wrong. The issue was a £10 subsidy to BAME because not enough of these people were attending the East Midlands Regional Conference. I would agree with the Equality Commission, if nothing else it 's patronising to presume that balck people can afford the extra tenner. But it seems the issue was BAME exclusion, the very opposite of what you asserted. In other words your off topic post was also utterly misleading. I will therefore report it, so the mods can excise this conversation.
https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/n...ickets-1110874

Diane Abbot is the Shadow Home Secretary for Labour, and a Jeremy Corbyn's ex partner. She isn't just another woman out of 550,000. In her constituency of Hackney, London, she receives a 62% majority of about 30,000 votes, so at least some sizeable amount of Labour voters support her. The fact that she has received no consequence for her repeated blatantly racist remarks is tantamount to endorsement, or at least wilful ignorance, the latter of which you are doing, mongrel. Diane Abbot is a racist, there is no argument otherwise..

She is still one person out of 550000 members. Yiu have still offered no proof that a party , dominated by older white males , routinely shuts out white people from its activities.

She was hired at the end of last February. At that point even I had heard of her due to her comments in the video I linked. She had already been sacked from L'Oreal for her racist comments at this point. It's ludicrous to suggest she hadn't been vetted. She was approved by Corbyn

Her story is little different from Toby Young's, but I guess she doesn't have a blog in the Spectator to pour grief over her deserved defenestration, unlike the baldy git.

The sheer scale of attempted racist policy, and lack of enrichment for racist attitudes within the party is enough. Trade Unions in the 50s are irrelevant to the consversation, but were equally an injustice. But discrimination isn't solved by more discrimination. If Labour were in the ANC's position, they too would seize white land, as they love to play race politics

You reference to a UK party on this thread is irrelevant, but I digress . It was Jim Callaghan who stripped Commonwealth citizens of their British status, framing an immigration policy more based on race than nationality. Our migration policy has been disfunctional since then. If Labour was in the ANC's position? The land would already been flogged to Americans and Frenchmen.

Cheers lad, looks like only left wingers are allowed to be racist then, and I'm a hateful right winger for pointing it out

It not so much that, it more there is a singular kind of political viewpoint where people have to spout fairy tales about the whipping boy de jour, in a sort of cultish way.
It's boring.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Let's not pretend that the continent of Africa is by any means a beacon of good ideas to the world. From Egypt and Libya all the way down to South Africa now deplorable acts of mass confiscations, slavery, genocide and every other crime imaginable takes place in numbers unheard of in the west. To say that isn't true is just being disingenuous. If these are cultural problems then they seem indelibly tied to a disproportionately high number of African cultures in Africa.

This reminds me of when Anderson Cooper was reduced to tears over comments that Haiti was a " country." huh. I wonder when Anderson Cooper last vacationed in Haiti.

[Heathen Hammer]

Did the Apartheid regime collapse or not? If you insist it hasn't show us evidence it still exists. Have a good time explaining that Alternatively you can withdraw your comments that my observation was 'unfounded'.

No, that's not what I said. I didn't say ANC didn't come to power, so I don't know why you keep arguing against a point nobody made, except that you are trying to avoid answering the question we expect you to answer: I asked you why did the economic development and living standards in South Africa and Zimbabwe decrease so much in the last few decades. We are still waiting for you to answer that question without buzzwords and switching goalposts.

[mongrel]

Let's not pretend that the continent of Africa is by any means a beacon of good ideas to the world. From Egypt and Libya all the way down to South Africa now deplorable acts of mass confiscations, slavery, genocide and every other crime imaginable takes place in numbers unheard of in the west. To say that isn't true is just being disingenuous. If these are cultural problems then they seem indelibly tied to a disproportionately high number of African cultures in Africa.

This reminds me of when Anderson Cooper was reduced to tears over comments that Haiti was a " country." huh. I wonder when Anderson Cooper last vacationed in Haiti.

Didn't start two world wars though or use said slave's labour to sweeten cakes and tea. Look elsewhere for the theoretical shiny blameless culture.

No, that's not what I said. I didn't say ANC didn't come to power, so I don't know why you keep arguing against a point nobody made, except that you are trying to avoid answering the question we expect you to answer: I asked you why did the economic development and living standards in South Africa and Zimbabwe decrease so much in the last few decades. We are still waiting for you to answer that question without buzzwords and switching goalposts.

That is what I said, Apartheid collapsed.You asked me squat. You said that my comment was unfounded, RTDT. Too hard to admit the fail, I expoect. Post no 81 is the relevant post, your ridiculous response riffed off that. Or are there two Heathen Hammers, the Earth one and the parallel universe one?

[Pontifex Maximus]

Well that didn't take long to bring up Hitler. Now can we get back to the point of the thread or should we engage in more self congratulatory "well at least they didn't..."

[Aexodus]

Didn't start two world wars though or use said slave's labour to sweeten cakes and tea. Look elsewhere for the theoretical shiny blameless culture.

Ahem, Africans enslaved eachother, and were enslaved by the Umayyad Arabs before those darn slave-abolishing colonisers came along

"There are no records of how many men, women and children were enslaved, but it is possible to calculate roughly the number of fresh captives that would have been needed to keep populations steady and replace those slaves who died, escaped, were ransomed, or converted to Islam. On this basis it is thought that around 8,500 new slaves were needed annually to replenish numbers - about 850,000 captives over the century from 1580 to 1680. By extension, for the 250 years between 1530 and 1780, the figure could easily have been as high as 1,250,000."(speaking of Europeans enslaved by the Barbary coast)

Slavery was practiced by all involved, but abolished by the British first. So your point is rather null, and similarly void.

That is what I said, Apartheid collapsed.You asked me squat. You said that my comment was unfounded, RTDT. Too hard to admit the fail, I expoect. Post no 81 is the relevant post, your ridiculous response riffed off that. Or are there two Heathen Hammers, the Earth one and the parallel universe one?

Then it crumbled like all the other crappy regimes around that time (USSR , Eastern Europe etc). The Apatheid regime had a terrible habit of killing schoolkids which is only rivalled by Boko Haram and rogue AR-15 - toting Americans expressing 2nd Amendment rights.

Nice relevant post.

What was the HDI of apartheid South Africa again?

[Heathen Hammer]

That is what I said, Apartheid collapsed.You asked me squat. You said that my comment was unfounded, RTDT. Too hard to admit the fail, I expoect. Post no 81 is the relevant post, your ridiculous response riffed off that. Or are there two Heathen Hammers, the Earth one and the parallel universe one?

So now you are saying that South Africa and Rhodesia had higher living standards and economic development because of Apartheid?